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How small is to small?

Dear Bob,
I do think you misconstrued what I was saying to be a personal attack. If that is the case, please let me apologize as that was most certainly not my intentions. What I was meaning to say is that everyone seems to take this as if it were the 11th Commandment, "Thou shalt not breed your female ball pythons until their third winter has passed and they are at least 1***grams!" I just posted this forum as a place to find out if there were any science behind this or if it is merely a best practice. Personally, I have never tried to pair a female who was less than three years old and approximately 1200grams myself. Having said that, I know of plenty people who have without incident not to mention importers who routinely bring in gravid females way smaller than what most would consider breedable who lay perfectly viable clutches. I am just not the kind of person to take someone's word for anything without a fact to back it up. There has to be a reason this has been pummeled in to our collective unconscious. Now, backtracking a bit- My mentioning your feeding habits wasn't to say that I personally find them deplorable or neglectful, rather that there are those who would make that argument. But just because someone can argue it doesn't make it so. You've fed your animals like that for quite some time without incident I am sure and will continue to do so.
 
Matthew Jackson
I purchased that book ages ago. That doesn't answer any of my questions. I want to know of first hand incidents where animals where harmed by this. That's all, no more no less.

Craig Montoya
Why does everyone seem to think this is me saying I breed animals that are 800g? This is an attempt to gain knowledge, to question the status-quo and find out how it became so. You say there is a risk breeding a female who is less than three to four years, please, point me in the direction of a single case. Without that information it's all hearsay. As for pregnant human children, that's got nothing to do with the subject at hand, sad as it may be. Again, I am not looking for justification to DO anything, nor have I done anything against what you have called the wisdom of the pioneers in this hobby. I just want to know who it is the wisdom. Why does everyone seem to fight so hard against someone seeking knowledge?

Craig Sharpe
I agree with you on that one, I've heard it said but scarcely been able to reproduce it.
 
Joe, I didn't take it as a personal attack, I just wanted to make sure that my original statment was understood to be only my opinion, and that it may not be that of others. I personally think that you are correct in your statement of it being best practice. I am sure alot of people do alot of different things when it comes to their animals respectively and I am not so naive to think that small females do not get bred, as I am sure they do more often then we think. I was merely stating what I go by here.
 
There are risks to breeding any ball python regardless of age and size, this applies to male and female. Take and challenge what you want and do as you will. You can challenge the best practices that have been established over the last couple decades and breed smaller females and see how it goes. Maybe you can be the one to change the ball python breeding standards moving forward :thumbsup:
 
I'd simply say that there's no harm in waiting...while there very well may be harm in going too early.

Though I do not have any personal experience with this, I'd say age is more important than weight. I don't think it would be too much of a problem to breed a 1200 gram, four-year-old female, for example. I have one female who hit ~1500 grams at one year of age (she's a MONSTER!), and I debated quite a while whether to breed her or not when she neared 18 months, but I decided against it. I'm pretty sure she has follicles, too, which is what made me consider breeding her. But the female who went for me last year wasn't sexually ready until about three years of age, so I'm using her as my baseline. She was four this past year, and she laid eight beautiful eggs and no slugs. I realize that's only one data point (not enough data to make a judgment on it), but I'd rather wait.

Now, if I had a 1000-gram female who was several years old, I don't know if I'd breed her or not. That just seems too small to me. Again, I have no data to back up this opinion; I simply don't see how a female that small (even if she has plenty of body fat) would do well, health-wise, if bred. I don't understand enough of this to justify breeding a BP that small.

Anyway, I roughly go by the 1500 grams, 18 months rule, though I use it more as a guideline than an actual rule. It kinda depends on the snake. *shrug*
 
Saying something happens in the wild so it is ok to do with captive bred snakes sounds like someone making an excuse as to why they would breed a female as small as 800 grams.

My rule of thumb is 1500 grams and 2 years old. I have bred 1200 gram females who were slow eaters for three years, and at four years old, pigged out to get to 1200 grams and were fat and happy. That is the exception here at my place, and definatly not the rule. My reasoning behind it is simple...I think at around 1500 grams and 2 years old, the females are mature enough to breed, and of the size where I would hope they would not get egg bound, or be harmed by laying too many eggs for the weight they had, or laying too large of eggs. Maybe I am way off base, but I would error on the side of caution, and the health of the females. Those saying that WC females come in gravid at 800 grams do not know the age of those snakes. Say they are 5 years old and had no rain over in Africa, so did not grow to much because of lack of food. What if they are the one 800 gram gravid female that was still alive at exportation time? I am no expert, but some things make sense, some do not...so I go with what makes sense....and if my male is BIGGER than my female, I do not breed her:)

Dave
 
1400g for me, though i wouldnt frown upon somone breeding at 1200... my breeder girls are 2000g + and several in the 3000g range so not much of a consideration. breeding under 1000 is asking for trouble...

as for the nature argment on the feeding... if i have a ball python that will eat weakly or every 5 days in captivity, it would almost certainly eat so in the wild as well were the food available which it is in times of plenty, im not sure why this 'once a month in the wild' became so fixated...they are 'capable' of going some months without food in the wild to Survive, it doesnt make it ideal, the once a month figure is odd to me, im quite sure in the wild they may eat 10 times in a single month then go without food for several months all based on availability, i can also assure you many ball pythons die in the wild from the elements as well as starvation, their Optimal care and their natural conditions cannot be viewed as neccicarily one in the same. as always...In My Opinon :)
 
i guess no one can answer my question how it is possible for a female to be at 1500 grams at 18 months of age only feeding every 6 days i have thrty or so females and not one has reached that wieght in that amount of time unless its because i do not power feed.
 
gsrept said:
i guess no one can answer my question how it is possible for a female to be at 1500 grams at 18 months of age only feeding every 6 days i have thrty or so females and not one has reached that wieght in that amount of time unless its because i do not power feed.
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If you're feeding every 6 days, your girls should be at least very close to 1500 grams by 18 months. The only way that I can see you being way off is if you aren't feeding a big enough rodent per feeding?? (Obviously I have no idea of your exact practices, hence the "?".) I never want to give mine a bigger rat than they can handle, but I do make sure that their meals are never too small, either.
 
I agree I feed try to feed mine every 7 days once a week...
I ONLY feed rats from when there first born its Rat Pinks then Rat Pups, Rat weanlings, Small Rats and up...
My exception to the rule is when breeding season comes up if the female in question is eating a meduim rats I offer smalls
Im sure that a few of us have this happen a smaller female going off feed durring breeding season Although I DONT BREED ANY FEMALE UNDER 2,OOO GRAMS PERIOD!!!!
( I dont know why but for me 2,000 grams is my number)
If they go off feed durring the breeding season I also only offer them smaller meals as well
IMO I belive this gets the smaller female's that go off feed thinking there a big girl more ready for the next season... Am I wrong? I may be wrong it may have no affect on them at all But its what I do and it works for me but the bottom line is it also works for my Ball Pythons as well
 
First off, I would like to say, "WOOOOT! We have a discussion going!"
*ahem*

Robert Kite
Right on, sir. I can certainly understand now, after all don't they say hindsight is 20/20?

Craig Montoya
I feel like I've stated this ad-nauseum already, however, let me state it again in plain and simple words. I have never before, nor will I ever, because I do not personally see it as a best practice, breed a female who is not at the very least 1,200g+ and 3 years old. Having said that, I am verbally challenging this because I want to know what can actually happen, not 5th or 6th hand accounts of egg bound females because quite frankly I've heard of a 2,000g+ female get egg bound.

Krystal Tyler
Please let me start off by thanking you for understanding the fundamentals behind my originally stated question. Moving on, I most certainly agree with your first statement, the only harm in waiting is opportunity cost for those who care more about money than their animals. Personally, I got in to breeding ball pythons after over a decade of keeping them as pets because I find them fascinating and I care very dearly about each and every single animal. As to your statement of the theoretical several year old 1,000 gram-ish female, that's exactly my point. In that scenario, do you consider this animal a pet or is it safe for her to breed? What are the real risks involved?

David Reid
Why is it that two thirds of the people on this post don't understand the idea of a debate? Why try and villainize someone who is just seeking knowledge? Moving on, have you ever personally had an issue breeding one of these 1200 gram females who were previously slow eaters? Encountered any health issues? Any health benefits? I.E. Did the breeding spur them in to becoming better eaters? I agree with not knowing the age of wild caught snakes, I'm not the Ball Python equivalent of Tom Booker (Robert Redford in The Horse Whisperer). I am just seeking knowledge on a subject that everyone seems to try and give you their best practice but no science to back it up.

Ryan Leadem
Hmmm a feeding debate? Okay. I've personally owned wild caught balls who were very troublesome to get to eat about 20 years ago. So, speaking from that point, I've had a male adult ball python go 16 months without a meal and then just one day was going crazy when I was feeding the others and never had trouble eating again. At that time, my vet advised me that as long as he was still attentive and not quickly losing vast amounts of body weight to put off force feeding and it was never needed. Now, to be clear, I am not suggesting that anyone else let an animal go that long without a meal unless under the care of a vet.

Craig Sharpe
The only thing that I can say is that I've rarely had an animal break 1,200g in the first 18 months. All of my ball pythons seem to hit this magical wall at about 1,000 grams where they become terribly finicky eaters for a while. Once that wears off they keep right on going though.

Matthew Jackson
I can certainly see your point in this. One of my friends who keeps ball pythons as pets routinely feeds them way small prey items and I've spoken to him about this on numerous occasions. He feels that he would be putting his animals in harms way offering what I feel is an appropriately sized prey item and doesn't have the desire to feed frozen/thawed. So, the end result is his animals grow slowly. Healthy none-the-less, just slowly.
 
IMO I belive this gets the smaller female's that go off feed thinking there a big girl more ready for the next season... Am I wrong? I may be wrong it HAS no affect on them at all But its what I do and it works for me but the bottom line is it also works for my Ball Pythons as well

Typo's Sorry it's corrected in this post Sorry
 
Well Clarence, I also feed every seven days, starting with rat pinks as a hatchling and work my way up. The only place I differ is that I never offer any animal something larger than a small rat. Just something I got off a very successful friend. With that I've also never had a snake have any trouble reaching the the appropriate adult size in an appropriate time, barring finicky eaters of course. I'm not condemning anyone who's practices differ, just stating what I do. As for the rest of your reply, well, I'm not sure on that either but am hoping to have a similar experience with one female who as I stated previously is over three years old and still sitting at the 1,200 gram mark because she was quite the finicky eater for a while.
 
they will and do go at 1200 grams with no problems a long as the have the age a spider i have was 1200 grams last year laid 6 eggs with out a hitch and went back on feed the next day so i think as long as they have the age it does not really matter i know nerd breeds at 1200 grams and up so i follow what he does and never have had any issues but use what works for you.i would not breed at a lower wieght than that.
 
Joe_S said:
Matthew Jackson
I can certainly see your point in this. One of my friends who keeps ball pythons as pets routinely feeds them way small prey items and I've spoken to him about this on numerous occasions. He feels that he would be putting his animals in harms way offering what I feel is an appropriately sized prey item and doesn't have the desire to feed frozen/thawed. So, the end result is his animals grow slowly. Healthy none-the-less, just slowly.
Click to expand...

Please, call me Matt. Whenever I hear my full name, I feel like my mom is yelling at me--despite having left home well over 20 years ago!!! LMAO!

Not to get too far off topic, I would like to address the concerns previously posted in this thread. I think that we have all seen too many examples of people looking for a good reason to go ahead and do the "wrong thing" (i.e. breeding at too young of an age) so it's easy enough (for me) to expect someone to do this....at least before understanding their true intentions. I'm glad to hear that you are not a newbie and are actually trying to do some research via this thread.

The best first-hand scenario that I can offer is something that happened in my snake room last year. I had a friend helping me one day as I was cleaning and swapping a few pairings around. Because he was so fascinated with some of my animals, I felt compelled to let him be included. Unfortunately, he put a yb male into the wrong tub. (Let me explain that I am NOT trying to put the blame on him, as I know it is MY responsibility to make sure everything done in my snake room is done correctly. In this case, I dropped the ball....no pun intended!)

To make a long story short, I realized this mistake within 48 hours. As I opened the tubs to check on each snake (or pair, in some cases), I noticed that their were two small snakes locked up. The yb was supposed to be with the big girl in the tub above where he actually was. I immediately "unwrapped" and removed him.

Wouldn't you know that while many of the females I wanted to become gravid by a certain male didn't happen, despite being locked for several weeks...yet this one later proved to be gravid after less than 48 hours with a male!! She was right around the 1100 gram range when she was accidentally paired and laid 4 good eggs which produced 3 healthy normals and 1 yellow belly female.

She is currently hovering just above 1500 grams and appears 100% healthy, but will not be bred again this year. It will be next year (when I breed her again) before I will know if this might have effected her.
 
My most sincere apologies Matt, I never intended to make you feel like your mother was yelling at you. I merely went by your stated name on your post. Please kindly notice that mine says Joe. Oddly enough, my name is actually Joe, not Joseph but that's an entirely other story. I can certainly understand your concerns and share them, however this as you now have no doubt have come to realize was a purely academic endeavor. Now, on to the important part of your first hand account. Did she have any issues at all health wise during being gravid, after having laid her clutch or any issues laying? It will also be very interesting to hear next year if the fables are true and she is now reduced to only ever having small clutches. I personally am hoping for you that she lays at least a 6-8 egg clutch when she goes again. And if you can remember to shoot me an email when and if this occurs, I would be greatly appreciative.
 
that whole deal that if they have eggs smaller that as they get older they will have smaller clutches is all a fabricated rumor. i have females that have bred at 1200 grams and had 5 eggs for that first clutcth are now 3000 grams and lay 10 and 12 eggs consistantly. in this industry you can not believe all the rumors
 
Joe_S said:
Well Clarence, I also feed every seven days, starting with rat pinks as a hatchling and work my way up. The only place I differ is that I never offer any animal something larger than a small rat. Just something I got off a very successful friend. With that I've also never had a snake have any trouble reaching the the appropriate adult size in an appropriate time, barring finicky eaters of course. I'm not condemning anyone who's practices differ, just stating what I do. As for the rest of your reply, well, I'm not sure on that either but am hoping to have a similar experience with one female who as I stated previously is over three years old and still sitting at the 1,200 gram mark because she was quite the finicky eater for a while.
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I personaly prefer feeding live ( I ALWAYS STUN THE RATS BEFORE PLACING THEM IN THE TUB) the rats alive but more the less knocked out I have a few Bps that eat Meduim Rats and 2 that are on Large Rats ( Via there size ) As I dont see a Small Rat making a very good meal for a 2,000+ gram Ball Python...
IMO That would be like me going to Mickey D's and getting a Double Cheeseburger its not going to fill me up
It just seems natural to me that a Larger Ball Python would seek larger prey items and would go for the larger prey items vs a smaller prey item altough the smaller prey item may be easier to obtain/catch in the wild I have no doubt that they wouldn't eat a larger prey item if they caught it
 
Case on point Mr. Sharpe. You've nailed it right on the head. That is exactly why I wanted to know first hand accounts of what goes on. You cannot take anyones word for it, merely decide if their best practices are in line with what you feel or believe to be right and run with it. So, I am on a quest to put some science behind those ideals.
 
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