How small is to small?

[Matt2979]

I would think that if the female is TOO young that she just wouldn't breed. If she's just barely mature enough, meaning that her reproductive organs are functional yet still growing, I would think that you could do damage to her. I believe that if you have any doubts, it's best to give them an extra year before you start breeding.

While I've never documented all the findings and compared, I have seen both sides from several other people breeding, as well as my own, that the girls bred as early as they could be (18 months, 1100-1200 grams) seemed to produce smaller clutches (4-5), while girls that were 3+ years and 1800+ grams seemed to average 6 to 9-egg clutches. All of the 5-egg clutches were from virgins, 18-24 months old. The lightest (non-accidental) was 1550 at the beginning of last breeding season.

I've only personally tried the younger example (and that was the accident that I described earlier in this thread) and she's not being bred this year so I can't tell you how it will effect her as a breeder in the long run. Last year, out of 17 clutches, I had (1) 11-egg clutch, (2) 9-egg clutches and the rest were mixed with 5, 6, 7's. The only 4-egg clutch I had was the accident.

Don't know if this helps, but it is my own personal experience.

 

[Matt2979]

I've only personally tried the younger example one time(and

Left that out, but it's the reason that I can't give you any other personal examples of females bred to early.

 

[rcpreis3]

I understand the whole what happens in the wild is the wild and its not always good. But like Matt was saying he had that accident girl pop out the least amount of eggs. Now we dont know if that was due to size or age, and have to wait til next year to get some data.

And your are right many of them could die being captured and shipped before they got to lay their eggs. But we really have no number what-so-ever on that. It could
1-1000. But even so, if we didn't capture these 800-900 gram girls and let them do what they do in the wild would have they survived? Would have they given birth with no problems at all? For all we know they could have, and the only reason they died is because we disturbed them.

But what im saying is in the wild they could have adapted to giving birth at a older age but smaller weight, and just having smaller clutches. The only way to really get an answer to this is to buy a bunch of lil girls, raise them differently and run trials. Its a project that has about ten years til we get a hint of some answers.

The only expirience I have is a girl who was atleast 6 yrs old (Cant know her age as she was found in a trailer park as an adult,) and was 1000-1100 grams, had an accidental breeding and she layed 7 good healthy eggs, (which was her fourth clutch on record) and recoverd no problem. I dunno if this info will help but its all I got. Oh, and just for the record her clutches were 7, 7, 5, 7*, and I think she had 7 last year, dunno as she isnt in my possession at this time.

*this was the year she accidently bred at 1000-1100, Idk her weights from earlier as that was the year I got her.

 

[rcpreis3]

Idk why it did that but that one line is supposed to say "It could be anywhere from 1-1000"

 

[gsrept]

to say its not a perfect situation in the wild is kind of crazy when you think about it. yes they do not have the pretection we give them or the once a week meals, but it as nature intended people survival of the fittest, we keep snakes in small shoe boxes stuff them with meals more than they need breed them every year and whats healthy about that? don't get me wrong but i think people try to play to much like the savior of the animal planet, mother nature was doing fine with out our help, we all keep them for either love of the animals, money, or some variation. if you think you are saving the species because you breed you are crazy and thats a lame excuse to justify why you are keeping them.

now my rant is over I do believe in the wild they breed at smaller sizes with no ill effects. i personally start my females out around 1200 grams if they look good and they always give them time off from breeding so not to burn them out.I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

I honestly dont think there is an average growth as The growth IMHO would vary from one animal to another.. Maybe genetics plays a part in how fast or big a Ball Python gets?

 

[Earthworks]

i would think a very young female that had hit say 1400g w/good bodyweight if shes chose to breed would have significantly less risk than say a 5 year old female at 900g, the process itself uses so many resoruces and fat reserves of the snake in question and from what ive read eggbound issues are much more significant in underweight females, not just ball pythons but a number of species.

 

[Joe_S]

Dear Ryan Leadem,
Do you have any first hand experiences with either of the situations you've mentioned?

 

[snakesRkewl]

I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

It's probably not possible.

Feeding over sized meals isn't the way to getting size fast, more smaller meals are.
I have 2 snakes 18 months old that are 1400 and 1600+ grams and they eat weanlings on average twice a week.
They are both breeding and if they take they take, if not they should go next year.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Correct me if Im wrong but I've always been told NEVER feed an item of prey thats bigger than the biggest/thickest part of the Ball Python/snake in question...

 

[snakesRkewl]

Correct me if Im wrong but I've always been told NEVER feed an item of prey thats bigger than the biggest/thickest part of the Ball Python/snake in question...

They can easily eat larger than their largest girth BUT if you like them to eat weekly and not go off feed over and over you feed them more appropriately sized meals.
I prefer twice a week with the two meals adding up to 15% of the "females" body weight. I stick closer to 10% for males.
I have seen ball pythons(not mine) eat some pretty huge meals with no consequences other than not eating for the next week or two.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I keep the meals decent but nothing that would be considered too big or questionable in size

 

[Joe_S]

I personally disagree with Jerry's practice but he's right. Smaller meals, higher frequency, higher temperature and there's one last piece that will even push it over the top but I've been asked not to share that information. So anyway, the whole debate seems to have swung from that of sexual maturity to feeding practices. *shakes head* In any case, any other people have any more information with regard to females who are of age but under weight and the health issues that either do or don't ensue when they become gravid and lay a clutch of eggs?

 

[snakesRkewl]

*sorry, got off track*

 

[rcpreis3]

Heres a classified where a breeder has expirience breeding their girls small. She has mentioned if there was any questions pertaining to the size to PM her.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222810

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Heres a classified where a breeder has expirience breeding their girls small. She has mentioned if there was any questions pertaining to the size to PM her.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222810

I tried to Pm them informing them of the thread hoping they could Share and spill some of there knowledge apon us since they have exp. with this and the subject as I too am interested in learning more on the subject as well Now and if its placed inside the thread they wouldn't have to repeat it in Pm's

 

[R. Eventide]

to say its not a perfect situation in the wild is kind of crazy when you think about it. yes they do not have the pretection we give them or the once a week meals, but it as nature intended people survival of the fittest, we keep snakes in small shoe boxes stuff them with meals more than they need breed them every year and whats healthy about that? don't get me wrong but i think people try to play to much like the savior of the animal planet, mother nature was doing fine with out our help, we all keep them for either love of the animals, money, or some variation. if you think you are saving the species because you breed you are crazy and thats a lame excuse to justify why you are keeping them.

I honestly don't know where this came from, as no one here--from what I can tell, anyway--even remotely mentioned anything of the sort.

My argument was simply that "it's okay because it happens in the wild" is not only an illogical statement but it could also easily put animals at unnecessary risk.

now my rant is over I do believe in the wild they breed at smaller sizes with no ill effects. i personally start my females out around 1200 grams if they look good and they always give them time off from breeding so not to burn them out.I still find it hard to believe that a female can attain a size of 1500 grams in an 18 month period with out feeding more than once a week or feeding oversized meals i would love to see a growth chart for a known average growth.

It's probably not possible.

I put up growth charts for my snakes a month or so ago; you can check those if you like. At any rate, yes, it is entirely possible to get a female to 1500 grams in 18 months without feeding more than once a week and without power-feeding. I have a Red Axanthic/Het Red Axanthic pair of siblings who are the fastest growers I've ever seen. (Which isn't really saying much, as I have only documented BP growth with my own.) They both only get one small rat a week (and have been since they were big enough to take small rats) even though they often wanted more than one. (The only times they actually did get more than one is when I had an extra I didn't want to waste. Even then, I didn't force it--they took 'em on their own.) I'm not at home right now to get the exact numbers, but at ~12 months of age, the female was ~1500 grams and the male was ~1300. They've also been my best eaters; up until this fall, the female had only refused food once in her entire life (over a year), so I'm certain that helped a ton. Given that they are siblings and that none of my other snakes have ever grown anywhere remotely that fast, I suspect it's a genetics thing. These two, for some reason or another, just grow like crazy. I'd love to know if their parents and/or siblings are the same way.

Correct me if Im wrong but I've always been told NEVER feed an item of prey thats bigger than the biggest/thickest part of the Ball Python/snake in question...

I've heard this, too, and I agree with it. It's not that if you feed a BP a too-large prey item they'll automatically die. It's the risk that they could. It's far more likely for a snake to choke, regurge, hurt themselves, etc. with too-large prey items than smaller, more appropriately-sized ones. Not to say the opposite doesn't happen (it surely does); it's simply that larger prey ups the risk, and some (I would hope most) are unwilling to take that risk and recommend to others they don't either.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I've heard this, too, and I agree with it. It's not that if you feed a BP a too-large prey item they'll automatically die. It's the risk that they could. It's far more likely for a snake to choke, regurge, hurt themselves, etc. with too-large prey items than smaller, more appropriately-sized ones. Not to say the opposite doesn't happen (it surely does); it's simply that larger prey ups the risk, and some (I would hope most) are unwilling to take that risk and recommend to others they don't either.

The reason Im asking or inquiring on it is becuase I feed a Large Rat to my larger Ball Pythons ( One Female in paticular as she's 2200 grams and about big around as a 12 oz soda can if not bigger
If I was to feed her 2 small rats twice a week they wouldn't weigh in at the same as a large rat does thus lessing her intake of food She's not overweight by no means nor underweight Im honestly trying to understand this better But im not getting it

I apologize to the OP for continuing to get off track in the thread Im not meaning to Im just curious

 

[Matt2979]

The reason Im asking or inquiring on it is becuase I feed a Large Rat to my larger Ball Pythons ( One Female in paticular as she's 2200 grams and about big around as a 12 oz soda can if not bigger
If I was to feed her 2 small rats twice a week they wouldn't weigh in at the same as a large rat does thus lessing her intake of food She's not overweight by no means nor underweight Im honestly trying to understand this better But im not getting it

I apologize to the OP for continuing to get off track in the thread Im not meaning to Im just curious

I have several girls over 2000 grams (some well over) and I usually give them large rats during the off-season. If I fed med's, I'd have to feed them a medium every 4-5 days, but I think 1 large rat, 1 time per week is better.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I have several girls over 2000 grams (some well over) and I usually give them large rats during the off-season. If I fed med's, I'd have to feed them a medium every 4-5 days, but I think 1 large rat, 1 time per week is better.

Matt Thanks I do the same when there breeding I offer food to them but its a smaller meal than what they usually get I just wanted to make sure the way I was feeding was appropriate and that the size of the meal was appropriate as well.