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How small is to small?

I have females nearing 4,000 grams, several of them, most of them are 2,500-3,500 and all of them receive one small rat every seven days. All of them constantly grow and bounce back very quickly after laying a clutch. There have been studies run by someone I know very well that suggest that two smaller meals actually provide more nutrients than one large meal due to the energy needed to process that large meal being exponentially greater. He doesn't like to share his exact data but he took several groups of animals and conducted feeding studies on them to figure out the fastest way to grow a ball python up without needing to power feed. I'm sworn to secrecy on a few things but I can tell you this, bigger isn't better in this case.
 
Joe_S said:
I have females nearing 4,000 grams, several of them, most of them are 2,500-3,500 and all of them receive one small rat every seven days. All of them constantly grow and bounce back very quickly after laying a clutch. There have been studies run by someone I know very well that suggest that two smaller meals actually provide more nutrients than one large meal due to the energy needed to process that large meal being exponentially greater. He doesn't like to share his exact data but he took several groups of animals and conducted feeding studies on them to figure out the fastest way to grow a ball python up without needing to power feed. I'm sworn to secrecy on a few things but I can tell you this, bigger isn't better in this case.
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Please dont take this as an insult nor to be disrespectful but if is this case then the information you have shared here would be he said she said third party information correct? Your telling us the information that a breeder has personally gathered collected and studied But yet your not allowed to speak his name... Why would a breeder who has studied and actually personally researched this information share the findings but ask for his name not to be spoken on the information.
 
That's the point, he didn't want it shared. If he wanted it shared he would have posted it somewhere I am sure. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut. Yes, it is hearsay and I have no proof of what I said.
 
I've got an 06 female that eats great...when she eats. The problem is that she'll feed well for 3-4 months, then stop cold. When she's off, NOTHING tempts her. Finally, after however many months, she will deign to take a meal; then, if I do things just right, she'll take another in a week or two. Something will click, and she'll eat every week till she goes off again. She'll usually only take one prey item each feeding, whether it is a mouse or ASF - no rats, thank you. For a while, I was able to sneak another mouse, or small rat in by holding it in front of her as she finished - she'd just move forward, open up, and take it. That lasted for about one cycle :( . After that, I occasionally introduced a second prey item as the first one went down (yeah, I know - save the comments...my snake, my choice). That didn't work for much longer...now, she'll get the second one part way down, realize it, and spit it out.

She was just about up to 1200g when she stopped...and dropped to a little over 1000g before she took an ASF this week. One of my males has been copulating with her, and she'll probably ovulate when she peaks out on her feedings. If it took, great. If the babies share her feeding habits, she'll probably never get bred again.

As for the multiple animals in a burrow - I can't speak for BPs, but I can say that many colubrids manage it. Instead of conventional constriction, they'll force the rodents up against the wall of the burrow with their body...often managing to kill them in the process; but, if not, they are held until the snake can give each one the attention it deserves. Depending on the situation (ie, how much they are fighting, and how easily they are restrained), the snake may kill and eat them individually, or kill them all and eat them afterwards.
 
I can certainly understand you frustration Mr. Moore, I have a bp who had a similar issue with eating. At first it never refused a meal until about 800 grams and then has slowly worked up to 1000 over two years. Two very very frustrating years. As for offering a second meal in any manner, eh, that's up to each individual keeper and unless you're trying to force feed a second meal I don't see why you should be nervous of reprisal. However, I am eager to hear the results of these many copulations. That really does peak my interest, probably why I started this thread. As for the rest of your comment, well I've never been in a rodent burrow being raided by a reptile of any kind so I would have to admit that it would be plausible.
 
Joe_S said:
I've never been in a rodent burrow being raided by a reptile of any kind so I would have to admit that it would be plausible.
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Drop 4 live mice in a tank with an adult king or bull snake, and watch the fun :eek:



Oh - I'm not nervous about the reprisal, I can hold my own in discussion, lol.
 
i have a female lesser that ha hit a wall 800 grams and guess what i do not want to eat anymore she has been off feed for about three months i just ignore them when they are like that and they will come back around when they are ready..
 
Cp3_Pythons said:
The reason Im asking or inquiring on it is becuase I feed a Large Rat to my larger Ball Pythons ( One Female in paticular as she's 2200 grams and about big around as a 12 oz soda can if not bigger
If I was to feed her 2 small rats twice a week they wouldn't weigh in at the same as a large rat does thus lessing her intake of food She's not overweight by no means nor underweight Im honestly trying to understand this better But im not getting it

I apologize to the OP for continuing to get off track in the thread Im not meaning to Im just curious
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Oops! I guess I need to watch my wording! I've been referring to over-sized prey items, not just "large" ones. Sorry about that!

I have no idea if more small prey items are better than fewer large ones, and I have yet to find any evidence one way or the other. I'd do some research myself, but I really don't know how to go about testing that. I'd need a decent sample size (and cooperative snakes) to make any results significant, anyway, and that I don't have yet. :(

I've heard the nutrient argument, but I'm not sure if it's true. Multiple small rodents may offer more calcium, etc. than one larger one, but then again, the larger prey item has more calcium, etc. in it because it's larger. How does the amount of nutrients compare between large and small prey items and if there is a difference, is it significant enough to affect the health of the snake? Don't know.

hhmoore said:
As for the multiple animals in a burrow - I can't speak for BPs, but I can say that many colubrids manage it. Instead of conventional constriction, they'll force the rodents up against the wall of the burrow with their body...often managing to kill them in the process; but, if not, they are held until the snake can give each one the attention it deserves. Depending on the situation (ie, how much they are fighting, and how easily they are restrained), the snake may kill and eat them individually, or kill them all and eat them afterwards.
Click to expand...

Another thing they might do is block the entrance to the burrow with their body. Then they can eat at their leisure. I don't know if BPs do this, but I bet some snake species do.
 
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R. Eventide said:
Oops! I guess I need to watch my wording! I've been referring to over-sized prey items, not just "large" ones. Sorry about that!

I have no idea if more small prey items are better than fewer large ones, and I have yet to find any evidence one way or the other. I'd do some research myself, but I really don't know how to go about testing that. I'd need a decent sample size (and cooperative snakes) to make any results significant, anyway, and that I don't have yet. :(

I've heard the nutrient argument, but I'm not sure if it's true. Multiple small rodents may offer more calcium, etc. than one larger one, but then again, the larger prey item has more calcium, etc. in it because it's larger. How does the amount of nutrients compare between large and small prey items and if there is a difference, is it significant enough to affect the health of the snake? Don't know.



Another thing they might do is block the entrance to the burrow with their body. Then they can eat at their leisure. I don't know if BPs do this, but I bet some snake species do.
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I also have no clue about the larger vs smaller feeding cycle but it's been on my mind for years and I've been able to figure out a couple things that could come into play.

Fat deposits. Larger rats are going to be fatter than smaller rats period. Fat in rats equate to fat in snakes IMO. I don't see smaller snakes taking a benefit of extra fat at such a young age. Adult breeder females, yes. Although this may have nothing to do with snakes, but with humans, a larger meal will go to fat more than a multiple smaller meals. Small, growing snakes can thrive off of lean, calcium filled meals.

The calcium and bone amount is a good argument. I would be quick to believe that two small rats would have more calcium than a large rat but with no evidence. They would have more fur, but does fur provide nutritional content?
 
Back to the "How Small is Too Small" topic: My observances and research have led me to believe age/size does matter but not in the production of large clutches.

Observe the young BP, observe the size of the eggs that must pass though the vent. The size of the eggs does not get smaller in relation to the size of the BP laying them; ergo, common sense leads me to believe that using smaller bps whose vents may not stretch enough to pass eggs successfully without stress to her, may not be a good idea. Using a younger BP who may not have enough fat reserviors in her and good muscle tone for breeding may not produce successfully laid clutches. Those using smaller/younger BPs and announcing success, may not be sharing all the information. Some of us have used children (12) year olds for example...yes, it can be done, and successfully with a doctors help, the gravid 12 year old doesn't have the formation, or girth to be able to successfully give birth to a 6-9 lb baby.:shrug01:

My research has taken me to other forums where I have read threads of spontaneous abortions in BPs and one theory was that the snake was not large enough to carry all the follicles that had been fertilized in her.

My continued research has given me an understanding that while size should not matter in terms of mating, it does matter in terms of size of eggs, ability to carry the eggs to term and lay them successfully.

Regarding the common belief that BPs bred young will lay smaller clutches in the future, there is no scientific basis for this belief. Most breeders use the "hit or miss" method of breeding. Research has shown me and verifiable data is available out there for those that research, that it's not size alone that gives a snake the ability or inability to produce large clutches, it's the NUMBER of follicles that are the correct size to be fertilized when the fertilization happens. If only a small number are the correct size, then the clutch will be small; however, if there happens to be a larger number of follicles of the correct size available for fertilization then the snake will lay a large clutch. This is why some breeders, who have researched, have begun using Ultrasounds to track the growth of their BP's follicles.

Put together, the animal must have the size to be able to carry the eggs successfully and pass them without losing too much weight or becoming egg-bound (which can also happen in a snake with some age/size, but other issues may be at play in those cases).

The above statements are simply the collection of information that my research has garnered and my own observations of my snakes and their formation.
 
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