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Hunter Reptiles Sick Tort Update

J

Jules Stock

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Hi, this is an update to my earlier post.  I went to check on the redfoot today, and she looked horrible, her back legs were parazlied, and she was so weak so could not open her eyes, very short time after, she died.  Hunter Reptiles has given no reply on any of this, but I feel that I am intitled to a refund, she was sick on arrival, terms or no terms, the tortoise was not what we paid our hard earned money for, we did not pay 225 dollars plus  65.50 vet bill to go through this, it is horrbile to see any animal dead, and know there is nothing you could do, we did all we could for the tortoise, the vet told us she needed some more tests, and if she did not get better in 4 days or so to bring here back, which is what we were going to do.  But she did not make it.  Hunter Reptiles gives no reply on this, and this is not fair to punish us over this when we did nothing wrong, we only wanted te very best for the tortoise.  I am new to this-i have never had a sick reptile EVER sent to me, and i think it is wrong and very expensive, and most of all, just simply sad that anyone could do this to animals and people. He would not pay anything on this, said we were bad customers...etc...  Thanks for listening, any help on this would be appreciated on what to do.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
Jules, I have been following your story since it's inception and I feel very badly for what has happened to you and to the poor tortoise. I know nothing of Hunter Reptiles, but I can only hope that at some point they will make things right for you. The real tragedy here is that they can never do right by the tortoise.

I raise Redfoots myself and they are absolutely wonderful creatures. So full of personality. Although I currently have none available I do have a young Leopard Tortoise that will make someone a wonderful pet and companion. It is currently listed on the Kingsnake classifieds. If you would be interested in this lovely animal, I will offer it to you for the price of the shipping - $30.00.

Once again, I'm very sorry for your loss. You seem to be a very caring person. I hope this one bad experience will not sour you on someday caring for these magnificent creatures.

Mike Greathouse
www.reptiliandreams.com
 
Mike....That's great! That's what altruism is ALL ABOUT!! Good job! A leopard tortoise for shipping charges only??? WOW!! Got any more??? hahaha

Jules....I'm sorry to hear about your tortoise....that's really a shame! At least it told us VOLUMES about Hunter Reptiles!!

You should copy BOTH threads, and send them to Hunter!
I'll say it again....you NEVER know about a company until something goes wrong!

Of course....this thread SHOULD HAVE BEEN on the end of the FIRST thread....right Jackie? ....Neil
 
Jules,

I'm truly very sorry to hear of your tragedy. It is very big and generous of Mike to make an offer for you to receive a new pet. To add to his kindness I will be happy to pay for your shipping costs so that you may have no added financial burden on top of the losses you've already suffered. All you or Mike need do is send me the bill and I'll take care of it. I hope our gestures of help when you're down help rejuvenate your faith in your fellow herpers who are honest and do care. As for Hunter Reptiles all I can say is you are the pits and may your business die a slow death as did the poor tortoise discussed here.

Greg Riso
 
Hey, can I join in on the bandwagon, too?? I'd like to donate the BOX that your new tortoise will be delivered in?? It's a very nice box!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself....

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> ....Neil
 
Neil, What was the above remark all about? Once again you are resorting to the "pot calling the kettle black". I just read your post on the Bill Cagle thread and was none to surprised to find it has nothing to do with good/bad/informative info regarding the original post. Isn't that the guideline in the rules of the BOI? I am starting to think that BOI now stands for Board of Insults! It appears that the above statement was made to illicit some sort of remark from me so I hope you aren't to dissapointed by my lack of enthusiasm or anger.
Jackie Lapradd
By the way if you forgot the "LOL" after the remark then please diregard this message
 
Jackie...Chill, woman!! Take a Midol...relax...don't you see the little smiley face directly underneath that statement??? I THOUGHT I was making an "inside joke" to YOU....I don't insult ANYBODY for no reason!! Sorry you took it WRONG....just don't EVER let it happen again!! You dig?? hahaha lol lol lol <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
Ya see 'em now?? LOL ....Neil
 
Neil I was referring to the above post that mentioned my name. The one without the smiley face. Evidently you slipped another post in on the thread while I was trying to formulate a polite response instead of letting loose with all my pent up fury! (LOL)
Seriously though, my intentions have never been to belittle you in any way. I just can't understand why some rules seem so important to you while others (rambling on about nothing in particular) are overlooked.
If I overlooked something on the rules about it being o.k. to use the board to talk back and forth amongst your friends please fill me in so I can join you in straying off topic.
Your Pal
Jackie Lapradd
 
Let me start off by saying, that I feel Greg Riso and Neil Gubitz replies to Jules posts are unfair.  Neither one of you even heard my side of the sale before Neil posted "mental note- stay away from Hunter" and Gregs post of "I hope your business dies a slow death like the tortoise did". Personally I felt somebody should have asked my side of the sale before jumping on the band wagon and posting negative comments!!

Irregardless, here is my side:  She contacted me about a Brazillian Cherryhead that I had advertised on kingsnake. I answered her questions and didn't hear anything back from her for a couple of days, so I sold the tortoise to someone else. Then she contacted me again and this time was ready to buy. I emailed her and told her that I didn't hear back from her, so I sold it. She was upset and said this always happens to her and she really wanted a cherry head. I felt bad for selling it to someone else, but come on, how many times have you (other sellers of reptiles) been contacted by people wanting to buy and never send the money? And she didn't even say she definitely wanted it, so am I supposed to hold it? Anyway I told her I would check around to see if I could find one for her and I did. I told her up front that I JUST got 2 of them from a friend who didn't even want to sell them but I told him I felt bad for selling the other one and at the time, I thought she was a good person. I paid more for these 2 than the ones I previously had posted but I would still give one to her for the original price posted. I took pictures of both of them, sent them to her and said "take your time you can pick either one" and I wouldn't post them until I heard from her as to which, if any, she wanted. When she decided, she emailed and told me which one she wanted. At that time she asked me to have UPS leave it at her door, until she could come home and get it. I told her "NO", I wouldn't guarantee it unless someone was there to sign for it. That statement was in writing to her in an e-mail which I have and she replied to. So she said she wanted it shipped to her sisters' house because she was home. I said fine, I would ship it there.  I told her what day I was shipping and sent her the tracking # the night before it was going to arrive. Which by the way, her times are off; she said she got it at 1:30pm the UPS tracking # is 1zt6664t2310000899 (anyone can go there) and see it was driver released at 2:23pm on 4/10. Her first e-mail was at 8<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0 pm 4/11 and she just asked what it was eating (as far as favorite foods and all) and said it looks a little sleepy. I said, "Keep me informed as to how it is doing." She emailed again on 4/14 and said it wasn't eating. I told her on 4/15 to send it back to me and I would take it to my vet and see what was the matter with it. Keep in mind, this was 4 days after she got it and it was driver released and I was still standing behind it. Then she called and spoke to Mary 4/16. Mary told her she could not give her any answers that I would be back in a hour and I would call her when I returned. That's when she starting screaming and crying at Mary, then put her husband on the phone and he started screaming and Mary told him the same thing that I would be back in a hour and I would call. Mary told me that they just kept questioning her and all Mary could do was to inform them of the terms on the website.  She is not authorized to make any decisions about the business.  And Mary stated that she wasn't authorized over and over again.  I returned about 30 min after her call to us and called her back. I told her again to return it to me ASAP and I would take the tortoise to the vet.  (I told her to send it to me because she stated "she couldn't find a vet near her and she didn't want the tortoise because it had appeared sick.  Also, my vet knows me and I am not charged an arm and a leg for a visit, which is how most vets charge for a first time visitor.)  If it was terminally ill before I sent it off to her, (that would truly make it fault on my part) and that I would paypal the money back to her because I wanted her to be happy. She still had the shipping box and I told her how and where to send it. I just wanted to make sure the tortoise was ill "before" I sent it to her and it was nothing to do with the way she cared for it. Either way, she would have had a $225 credit even if she was at fault. The next day, there where 2 e-mails from her demanding her money back NOW. She said how hard she worked for the money and that she was in a bind and needed her money back. Again, I told her I would give her credit (upon receipt of the tortoise) until I found out what was wrong with it. "Send it back now so we don't waste anymore time." Thursday 4/18 she e-mails and said she found a vet in her area that she was going to take it to and I needed to pay the bill. To be honest, I told her she was crazy. I am not going to agree to pay a vet bill from a vet I didn't even know. Everyone has heard stories about vets with reptiles and how a good vet that is fairly priced is hard to find and if she was so worried about it getting to the vet why didn't she take it sooner or ask me if I wanted her to take it there.  Instead, she tells me the day I should have got it back, that she wanted approval to take it then. I feel that she should have stuck to our deal and should have sent it back on Tuesday 4/16. What did she need in writing? That I was going to give her credit on it? I told her that I would when we were on the phone. If it was such a high priority for her to get it in writing, why didn't she call and tell me that? I could have e-mailed it to her or faxed it to her. I have all of the e-mails back and forth and would be happy to forward them to anyone that wants to read them. I feel that I went way beyond my terms and that still wasn't good enough. If you guys still think she is in the right, let me know but I think I am doing the right thing. I can't guarantee reptiles forever nor can I sort out the good customers from the bad ones. I WISH I COULD DO BOTH!!! Thanks to all who will read my side of the sale BEFORE posting their opinion. To you, Jules, "Don't bother emailing me.  They will be deleted before they are opened. I bent over backwards for you and you still came to this board to try to make me look bad. I will say it again in my opinion, "You are a bad customer!"
Thanks Chris
Hunter Reptiles 352-596-5987
 
well  i have read both jules and  hunters  posts  and formed this  opinion
i myself   find the 3 hour  terms  a bit   usless     i mean come on   3 hours   !!!!!   unless completely near death or dead   i wouldnt be able to tell  in 3 hours if there was a problem with an animal  especially if your expecting   the customer  to notify u  in 3 hours  of any problems   i mean hell  lets face it  shipping alone can make an animal  look sick   what should i imediatly say its  sick   and send the poor thing back right after being shipped  ..  the soonest  you would notice anything sick  (unless like i said  so  near death or dead )   would be 24 hours   .. IMO  that 3 hour  thing is a way out  of responsibility ....
HUNTER  ?? how long was the tort in your possesion  before you sold it ?    if not long shouldnt you have waited  to see   your self if any problems stemmed from it   or  are you the only one that can tell in 3 HOURS  if its ok ??
you knew she wanted it bad  im sure she would have had no problem holding off a couple days  to be on the safe side ...
now to jules    dont let your expeirience    hold you opinion  the same about all internet  dealers  but  jules  if your  emails went unanswered (QUOTING NEIL NOW )   why not bombard his telephone until   you got satifaction   ... calling is much better than just keep sending   email after email ....
but  you talk about the  shipping end  that we can check it HUNTER   well at least i will say she knew she wasnt gonna be home so she did the best thing she could have done  and had it sent to someone she knew that would be home  ...  instead of risking the animal  or her  lively hood ...

IMO  both parties made choices how they  handled things  and through both choices  things ended  up very bad  
but  i do feel THAT 3  HOUR crap   u call terms hunter is a load of BS     ( again i say 3 hours or no deal is a way out of being held responsible )    i dont think its not up  to anyone to send her a leopard tort  or  pay the shipping  i think u should eat this  like the GOOD business your tring to  PROJECT   .. and make good   to her  and walk away knowing you did the right thing ............  but  that  MY OPINION  ...

either way this will leave  a bad taste in everyone mouth  
and jules  right or wrong   im sorry to hear your TORT  died  its a shame when  innocent animals  die   ....
BUT THIS was done   IMO !!!!!!!!!
shawn
 
This message is in a multi-part format to several people:

Jules,
I am not a tortoise person, and as such am unfamiliar with them. However, I would like to offer my condolences to you on your loss. It seems like reptiles in general are very fragile and succeptible to many ailments. Even when in the best of hands. And that fact seems to have been lost in the translation somewhere. I too have been through a similar experience. So my heart goes out to you. I wish you the best of luck in the future.

Jackie,
Calm down and count to 10. I myself sometimes talk back and forth to people inside different threads. I myself have pushed the envelope on several occasions. I even think sometimes too far. I even think some of my past posts have been deleted. Oh well. I broke the rules and Webslave tagged me for it. I won't gripe. As far as people like Neil and myself, you have to take us with a grain of salt. Look at this topic here. You have engaged in the back and forth style yourself. I don't know you and have no wish to berate you. In fact, I enjoy a good heated argument.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> *LOL* I'm just straying off topic in an attempt to push your buttons!!!  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>  In truth, I enjoy yours and Neils' little back and forth soap opera. *LOL* My point is this: Actually, I have no point.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Chris Hunter,
I have to say that I admire the candor with which you conducted your first reply here. I was expecting a flame war. You have presented yourself very professionably.

In closing, I'd like to add that I am not taking sides. With every facet in life, there are two sides. Both have been adequately presented. I wish both parties the best of luck.
 
Shawn, Your posting does not leave a bad taste whatsoever.  Everyone has a right to their opinion.  I have been running my business with these terms for quite some time and have had no disagreement over my terms.  If ever anyone has run into a problem, I address it as I did with her.  Irregardless of the 3 hour time limit, no-one was still there to receive the tortoise.  And you say a 24-hour time limit sounds more reasonable.  Well, I gave her considerably more time than that.  5 days was more than fair when I originally asked her to send it back.  She didn't even mention anything was sick in her first e-mail to me 30 hours after delivery.  I tried to address the situation as best as possible:  send it back and I will credit you.  She didn't want to do this.  You have your feeling on this and I have mine.  She stressed to me more than once that they were in a bind and needed the money back.  I did what I thought was fair.  I'm sorry if others disagree.

Chris Hunter
 
Chris....I gotta say, you handled yourself very well, so far....no flare-ups, no language problems, just the facts....the problem with websites is that every FIRST post is given the "respect" it is PERCEIVED to have?? In other words....if the author states his/her case in a no-nonsence, straight-forward manner...with all the facts (as they know it) in place...they are usually believed ...until the other party either enters the mayhem or doesn't...and it's the WAY the "defendant" enters that says A LOT about the outcome...
As far as this is concerned....even though I agree that the 3-hour thing is a little flaky....as long as it's maliable and able to "bend" from time to time, depending on the situation... and NOT written in stone...well, ok, you want it, you got it...
You seem to BOTH have your points, but...I guess the bottom line is that she didn't send it back for your refund??? Instead, she decided to keep it and try to get it better herself?? It's a noble gesture and a great benefit for the tortoise...but, that's the chance she took?? I really do feel sorry that it died, but I don't think you owe her a full refund, knowing the facts as they stand now....I would, however....think you should AT LEAST offer her another one at SHIPPING COST ONLY!! Yeah, you might lose a couple of bucks, but, this is a SPECIAL circumstance...this isn't an adult herper who knows what's going on...this is a kid (I sure hope I read that right?) who had to save her money for a while for this animal....if you DID do that....I can almost GUARANTEE YOU that she will remember you KINDLY for the rest of her life!! If you DON'T want to do that....well, I think you get my point....

Now Jackie (my dear).... Please try to keep in mind that this site brings together a "herp family"...as in ALL families...we talk amongst each other to better us ALL....every "HEAVY" thread NEEDS a little levity once in a while, so we go off on a tangent, but we eventually get back to the matter at hand?? It just helps break up the monotony....so, I guess I'm saying that some rules SHOULD be broken once in a while, for the right cause....but, when it comes to a simple thing like having the COURTESY to sign what you wrote, having the COURTESY to follow the rules (which means you have to have READ them first)....those are simple basic things that we ALL have agreed on....I'm just pointing them out to those who haven't posted here before....I think I've calmed down tremendously since the beginning??? Don't you???
OK Jackie....you've stayed up long enough listening to my stories...now go brush your teeth and go to bed, it's late....good night lil chillen...LOL ....Neil
 
In this case both seller an buyer agreed to certain terms and conditions. I have run in the past into two-page terms with which I disagreed and decided not to go through with the deal. That's my option as a buyer.

Now, as a seller I will have to agree with Shawn. Three hours seems just like a live arrival guarantee only. A reptile can arrive in good, regular or "barely made it alive" conditions. I believe the buyer needs at least 24 h to check if the animal has no external parasites, RI, etc.

Just my opinion,

Regards,
 
Hello again!  Chris, I see that you have your opinion and I have mine, and I can not say any more to you than I already have, like you said, you do not want to look at or answer my emails, and like I said in my post, this was one of my main problems with all of this, no, one cannot ignore a problem, it just will not go away...Limits or Terms or whatever, the tortoise has passed away, Hunter Reptiles Chris, at least say that you are sad about it or that you care even the littlest bit, I just cannot believe that you sold me the poor tortoise, yet you cared nothing for her at all, not even to feel sad that she is dead, even if you will admit no wrong...BUT there are some good people out there.  Some wonderful caring people that did not even know me, but yet, knew how I felt anyway.  Thanks so much, Mike Greathouse and Greg Riso.  Greg, I thank you so much for offering the shipping on my new little baby tortoise, but I will adopt him or her myself.  That was very thoughtful of you, and I will always appreciate it and tell others what you offered me.   Mike,  I cannot thank you enough, after all that has happened today, this was a good surprise for me.  I appreciate everything, and you have made my day a much better one than from what it was this morning!  You owned me nothing, but yet, your heart knows I will love the little tortoise and would take wonderful care of it, and the redfoot will live on through this new little life, and you have gained a friend and a good customer, you will see I am a good customer when dealing with a good breeder like you, I am sorry you had to get caught up in all of this.    And, Chris, no I am not perfect, no one is, I cannot be one to judge if an animal is that sick in 3 hours time, but I do know that it should have not been sick to begin with.  And, no, I never said I was in a "bad bind" but I did say that we work hard for our money and do not make much as it is, and to be sent a sick animal that we paid 225 for is a lot for us to cope with.  But we are not the ones who had to really suffer and cope, the tortoise did, please feel some remorse for her, you said you refuse to refund, but remorse costs nothing, and why do you only reply to me on here, I have sent you so many emails, and no answer, no answer, I will not send any more.  Thank you Mike and Greg, you guys are the best, and examples of who should be adopting out these guys!  Mike, you will always have my business, and I will care for the tortoise like I care for all my animals, the best of care, with love.  Chris, I thought you would always have my business until this happened, I thought you would just do the right thing, but not even a word of remose...is it worth all of this, really?   Is this what you think is fair?   I think Mike and Greg were the ones who were really fair and just.  And Neil, the providing the BOX made me laugh, something else I really needed today!   Thanks everyone for your opinions, thats what this board is here for, for the honest facts and opinions, I am so glad it is here, it helps resolve when there is no other way, which, in this case, there has not been.  This is the first, and hopefully the only time I have ever posted bad about here on anyone.   And Shawn, I agree with you that Chris is the one that should make amends, but as everyone can see, it has been a hard deal without any bending, Chris, I ask you one more time to do the right thing that you feel, but if not, at least feel remorse for the lost redfoot....thats really what this is all about...
 
Jules...sorry about the "kid" crack...I now see where you said you were married....but...as much as you might not like it, and as much as WE might not agree with it....you DID see his terms, and you DID agree to them by purchasing his tortoise??? As much as it might have pained you...you SHOULD HAVE sent the Tortoise back to him THE NEXT DAY...this way...you would have been in the right, HANDS DOWN!! But now??? This one is REALLY up to Chris' moral fiber and his willingness to see a bad thing turned around....of course...yelling and screaming, and threatening will get you NOWHERE!! KEEP playing it cool and try not to lose your temper....you've got to realize that you basically had a "binding" legal agreement (with TERMS)....LEGALLY, I don't think you have a leg to stand on....but, morally??? THAT's a different story.....good luck, and Chris....just send her another one and raise your price on something else to make up for it....it's the right thing to do....Neil
 
I'm not really sure if I feel that Chris should feel morraly obligated to do anything more than he has already attempted to do.  He gave her plenty of time to ship the animal back, she decided not to.  Maybe the tort could have been saved if it was back in the hands of him and an experienced vet.  He went well beyond his terms of service and gave her ample opportunity to ship the animal back while it was alive.  Why wasn't it shipped back?  As for the whole remorse deal, as Neal said, he was trying to stick to the facts.  The purpose of the email was to explain his side of the story.  He may feel horrible about it...i hope he does...he may not.  BUT, that is irrelevent.  If she took it to the vet and the vet said that it had some sort of terminal illness and that Hunter is at fault, then this is a different story, but there is no telling what killed the tort. or whether or not it could have been saved if it was sent back.  
thanks for reading,
-Lucas Denning
 
Jules,

First of all I wish to thank you for your kind words. My personal feeling is that every deal between a seller and buyer is always unique simply because different mindsets, conditions, and expectations exist each time. When I sell an animal I don't specify ANY time period that my health guarantee expires. I believe that if an animal leaves my door in excellent health that it should remain in good health a full week or even weeks after the sale. For a seller to guarantee an animal for only three hours after arrival he/she must not have much faith in the health of his/her animals. Unless the husbandry skills of the buyer are virtually nonexistant there's little reason in my mind that a healthy animal should take a turn for the worst in so short a time frame. I've copied and pasted here one sentence which can be found in any one of my ads and I stand behind what I state. It is as follows:
"As always I guarantee live arrival of a healthy animal and your 100% satisfaction." You don't see any disclaimers or time frames here do you? If you're not satisfied for whatever reason I'll make sure you that you will be satisfied period, end of story. No fine print or disclaimers to be found anywhere. The day you see a negative post about me here will be a very sad day indeed. Jules, I've been in your position many times as a buyer and I know how frustrating and disconcerting it is to receive an unhealthy animal. All I can say to the questionable dealers out there is do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Not terribly original but you know I think it still applies after all these years. I believe "Eddie" said it.

Greg Riso <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
This is nuts!!!  Jules was told to return the tortoise, PERIOD.  You can't order stuff online, recieve at your house, decide you're not happy, refuse to return it, and then demand your money back or more stuff.  Anthropomorphising aside, the tortoise was ordered and paid for with the terms in place.  Jules paid for the tortoise and thereby accepted the terms.  We can complain about the terms all we want, but we aren't part of this deal.  If the terms are something Jules didn't like, then don't enter the deal.
I think most of you are just siding w/ Jules because of the sob story.  Please remember Jules was given the option (over and above what was agreed to when the deal was inked) to return this tort. so that, it could be taken to the vet.  Jules REFUSED!  To bad, both for Jules and for the tortoise.  IMO Hunter Reptiles did nothing wrong, in fact they went beyond their stated terms by EXTENDING their guarantee.  For them to refund any money, would be crazy.  Hunter was not given an opportunity to make the situation right, Jules robbed them of that by refusing to return the tortoise.  And now half of you think Hunter is the bad guy.  CRAZY!!!!!!
 
"Unless the husbandry skills of the buyer are virtually nonexistant" Greg far to often this is the case, I dont know how many animals you sell online or reptile shows etc you do, but i have been doing this for 15yrs and while there are many great people out there who educate themselves and prepare when looking for there next pet, there are far to many that do not prepare or educate themselves, on a regular basis I have people that I myself refuse to sell to simply because I get bad vibes about them, and you wouldnt believe how many people I have come across that act like they know what is up till they have the animal in hand then start drilling people for info because they got no clue what to do with this cute little thing, please dont think I am attacking what yuou have said and what I have said above I am not even applying to this topic just simply trying to show why people have TOS, I have set up reptile shows for ten years now, for many years I was setting up 3 or 4 weekand a month for 6 or 7 months out of the year, in doing that I have met some of the most wonderful people in this hobby and also some of the stupidist, crazy, absord people, just when I thought I had seen it all there was ALWAYS someone to come along and show me I had not, over the internet it is easier for some of these people who dont belong in this hobby to hide their lack of knowledge, planning and (insert snide comment here) ways, weve had people in shows who would want a cobra, that never had anything over a rosy boa before and would ask question like "will they tame down so I can handle it?" "is it safe to handle these with welding gloves" " what do they eat" well over the net its not as easy to pick out these nut jobs, and like you I think just about all of us started out with little or no TOS but after a while you get burned by the customers and you dont have much of a choice to protect yourself, in this buisness it hard being a seller, selling at shows is a breeze however over the net, to be honest with sometimes is not worth it, like I said this really has nothing to do with this thread, i dont know how long you have been selling over the net, so maybe you have experianced some of this maybe you havnt , just trying to show you a differant side of things so please dont take that the wrong way, sorry for my rant


now on to the topic at hand, I truely think bpc, and Lucas hit the nail on the head with this one, she had the chance to send it back even beyond the contract entered at purchase and didnt, not once but twice Chris was reliquished of all liablitly #1 under the TOS or contract she had entered when buying the animal, after that time fram (wether you think its fair or not is besides the point) he was no longer liable #2 he extened the guarentee and gave her a chance to get a replacment or refund by sending the animal back, she did not and for the second time the liabilty was lifted off Chris, this time NOT by his doing, but by her refusal to send the animal back

as far as the TOS for anyone reading this before you by an animal from someone you need to read threw that, if there is parts you dont like threw email, so you have a record ask it to be rewritten, the majority of the time I think most of us are willing to work with the customer, but if you think the TOS is unfair and buy under that contract and something happens, dont get upset about how unfair you think it is afterwords, do that prior to committing, and if the seller isnt willing to work with you on this TOS or parts you think are unfair, then find another seller

I am sorry for your loss and the tort but that is my opinion on it
 
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