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Hybrid experience?

Robert Walker

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Borneo Bateaters (Retic x Burmese) have always caught my eye. I'm curious if anyone has experience with hybrid personalities, if possible Bateaters?

Most retics I've been around are flighty and prefer to go off on their own. In contrast the Burms we used to have were much more slowed down and chill.

QUESTION: Beside the outward physical appearances, how does the personality work itself out. Flighty like a Retic or Calm like a Burm.

Guess the question applies for any hybrids for that matter.
 
QUESTION: Beside the outward physical appearances, how does the personality work itself out. Flighty like a Retic or Calm like a Burm.
I've dealt with completely indifferent retics; as well as burms that actively wanted to do me harm. Given a large enough sample size, you're likely to run across wildly varying dispositions within any given species. There are more factors to consider than simple nomenclature. I'm of the opinion that nurture plays at least as much of a part as nature - nurture possibly including any selective breeding that involved trying to achieve specific personality traits, subsequent husbandry/handling practices, etc.

Anyway, my lone experience with a hybrid came from owning a yellow X green anaconda. She wasn't the happiest camper, and was just big enough that I generally didn't push her too far or give her many opportunities to do much serious damage. Given the overwhelmingly positive experiences I've had with the vast majority of the anacondas with which I've interacted, it's entirely likely that her attitude came from mishandling that eventually conditioned her to dislike human interaction. Given the fact that one of the seller's provided pictures depicted a clearly pissed off snake being forcibly restrained right behind the head, my theory seems to be supported. Of course, she could have just been an a-hole from birth. Some of us just are. :shrug01:
 
Back when I briefly dabbled with snakes, I wanted to obtain a carpondro. Never did, though.

On a tangent in a similar vein, I have kept a decently varied collection of chelonian hybrids. Like with their parent species, personality truly came down to the individual animals. I find that when people try to play up or play down personalities to an extreme (especially when dealing with regional variants within a species), there is often a repeated mythology involved or someone somewhere trying to sell something. That said, there are certainly trends here and there.

Many of the following are some I have either owned or spent some degree of time with.

Map x DBTs: I noticed no discernible differences between the hybrids or the parent species in terms of personalities. I *think* skin sensitivity leaned towards the DBT side of things, but I have not had enough to say if this is a rule. Stunningly beautiful hybrids with highly individual appearances that tend to beat the pants off of the parent species.

Map x RES: No discernible differences in terms of personality. Some animals are prettier than average, but I found most I have seen to be somewhat more dull-colored than either parent species.

Crosses between wood, Blanding's, EPT, WPT, and similar turtles: No huge personality differences for the ones I have had the pleasure of meeting, but this is a generally friendly and intelligent group of parent species, too. Adding insculpta or marmorata to the mix seems to boost personality some, but that could be as much my bias as it might be a legitimate observation. The individual appearances are consistent within a cross of this type, but the different crosses differ in parents species influence relative to other crosses.

Terrapene hybrids: Most box turtles are friendly already. Most boxie hybrids and crosses tend to mutually dilute the parent species colorations. I think the ornata x carolina have some interesting appearance potential, depending on the carolina subspecies involved. One should note that there are numerous people who try to use hybrid and intergrade claims to skirt state rules/laws. I see a lot of people labeling EBTxTTBTs and straight EBTSs as WBTxTTBTs. This can be especially obvious as a business move when some people call what seem to be FBTs as WBTxFBTs (although there are certainly crosses of these types out there, too, so we should avoid rushing to judgment).

Many sidenecks can hybridize as can many Cuora. Snappers and Chinese bigheads might be able to if they do not kill each other. Common and alligator snappers can hybridize (I think they are pretty cool and might like one, but now is not the best time for me). Manouria and Gopherus should have a pretty good shot.

The Testudo (and former Testudo) species can pretty much all get it done. All relatively personable like the parent species.

Indotestudo seems to be able to easily cross within the genus.

Radiata x redfoot: A neat-looking hybrid. No idea what their personalities are like, as I have only seen photos.

Radiata x sulcata: Looks like a sulcata with a slightly higher dome and the carapace scutes have some rays to them.

Leopard x sulcata: The overall morphology of these is similar. The main variations are lighter versus darker coloration and medium-large versus large-huge size. The personalities are robust. I think they can be slightly more susceptible to RNS stuff than sulcatas, but less than the pardalis species on average. These are really cool animals to keep in my experiences. Mine do not dig their own burrows, but will use sulcata burrows. Fearless and dominant. High-domed like leopards. Develop thick forelimb tubercles like sulcatas. In the right climate, these are really nice for yard grazing.

Leopard x redfoot: I only have one, but mine is insanely friendly. Stares at my face and will ignore food to look at me (it really focuses on the face). Orange and peach skin with striping. Marbled/variegated shell (even more apparent when viewing the plastron). The shell shape is an even combination of redfoot and leopard morphology. The head is more leopard-like with some redfoot accenting (such as the rings around the irises of the eyes).

RFxYF/YFxRF: I have only had the pleasure of owning one of these (and she is now a classroom pet), but have also known/met several others. These vary significantly. Some are dead ringers for one parent species or the other, so these need good/better records/IDs if they are to be produced or sold off. Personalities are similar. The YF marginal scalloping may be present as a neonate, but is more nuanced and recedes more quickly than in pure denticulata. Could get anywhere from medium to large. I personally prefer the YF-leaning animals in terms of head shape and prefrontal scale arrangement, but combined with a more orange color contribution from the redfoot parent. Because this is somewhat tricky, some better ways to ensure legitimate hybrid status for this cross, as opposed to retained sperm causing monospecific offspring, are to look at the prefrontal scales so that the neonates are the opposite-species configuration of the dam or to isolate the parents consistently and for years (preferably just before sexual maturity for the female if possible, as female YFs can retain sperm for a long, long time).

I am trying, mostly in vain, to produce other types of hybrids and there are many, many possible crosses beyond those I have paid any mention to, but it is slow going. There are prezygotic barriers in the form of disparate size and shape of the parents as well as unwillingness to mate in some (few) cases. In terms of postzygotic barriers, there is a stage where the embryo is just a small clump of cells. The cells either figure things out go-foward complementarity at that point or they do not (and they usually do not). I had to lose a lot of hybrid eggs off various kinds in order to determine what I was observing. To a person not focusing enough, the eggs will appear infertile when they have actually been fertilized effectively. I wonder if employing a forced diapause might make this stage gate somewhat easier or gentler for the cells to overcome, but that will have to wait for later for me.

Dietary and environmental concerns are not big issues at all in my experience thanks to overlapping ranges for parameter optima.
 
I'm of the opinion that nurture plays at least as much of a part as nature

I can agree with this and see this to be true Dan. The "calm" burmese were my pets and I knew that I had taken care of them well. The retics were never mine and I only saw them in passing and never really saw if they got real TLC during their life or not. Makes sense and I hope I haven't perpetuated any negative stereotypes unjustly.

I find that when people try to play up or play down personalities to an extreme (especially when dealing with regional variants within a species), there is often a repeated mythology involved or someone somewhere trying to sell something. That said, there are certainly trends here and there.

Great, I just repeated mythology in my original post, dang:D
Reading the rest of your post Nicholas makes me realize there are some hardcore smart folks out there really paying attention to the details which is great! It is nice to see the variety of people on here, from a teen who just caught a garter snake in the backyard up to a biologist!
 
All this said now, I want a retic for a pet since I doubt I'm going to find a Bateater in my state.
 
I do not know the rules regarding the restrictions on the hybrids of the listed snakes, but I figured I would share an interesting tidbit on certain hybrids that are composed of an ESA listed species which could be useful to some other folks dealing with this manner of hybrid.

Outside of protected raptorial birds and a few not-quite-relevant non-reptile species, if a hybrid is produced from the union of an ESA-listed parent and a non-ESA-listed parent, the hybrid offspring is not considered to require a CBW permit for sale.

As an example, that means if a male radiated tortoise (requiring a CBW permit for interstate sales) and a female redfoot tortoise (not requiring a CBW permit for interstate sales) get together and "love each other very, very much", then their hybrid offspring can be sold without the need for the buying and selling parties to have a CBW permit for radiated tortoise possession.

Personally, I would prefer not to "spend" eggs from an ESA-listed female on hybrid creation and feel that would typically defy the "spirit" of the CBW permit, but an ESA-listed male makes plenty of sperm and most of that will be wasted anyway, so combining that with the eggs of a non-ESA-listed female from a species with a somewhat more saturated market would provide a path that does not impact the production of radiata and is insignificant to the production level of carbonaria. Male redfoot x female radiated = potentially fewer radiated babies if she could have been paired with a male of her species. Male radiated x female redfoot = no fewer radiated babies than if the male was not paired up with her at all.

Just something to think about.

These things can be done with care and responsibility and these things can be done carelessly. It only takes a small amount of strategic thinking to inject some mindfulness into the process if undertaken.

Other legal restrictions on other hybrids may certainly be at play, so one has to do a little digging.
 
I came across this short thread the other day about LACY interstate transportation. Hybrids (for snakes on the LACY act) are briefly discussed as well as a link to a FAQ website from a breeder that in turns refers to the main sources.

Long story short, if this thread and FAQ are correct, I'm out of luck on getting a bateater from out of state.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344490
 
That is too bad. Not like any of these are going to take over NE like some bad movie.

You could create them yourself if you can swing the parents.
 
Don't get me started on the Cold vs. Snakes vs. a bad movie:ack2:

You are correct, I could just make my own. I got tunnel vision for a while only looking at buying one versus breeding for it.

My understanding (right or wrong) is that most hybrids are sterile, even though I did see a thread of a Carpet/Chondro laying eggs recently.

How about in turtles & tortoises, sterile?
 
Lots of hybrids are fertile and lots are sterile. Sometimes able to produce F2s, sometimes able to backcross to one or both parent species (or yet another species), and sometimes nada.

Many python hybrids have been fertile (at least in backcross scenarios).

For chelonians, several of the turtle hybrids are fertile. Several are untested. For the tortoise hybrids, most to all are untested. If my big female manages to reproduce (she dug a test nest and she passed at least one egg that another tortoise got to before I could). Maybe next year will be the year. The trouble with tortoises is that it takes longer and few individuals have enough animals of opposite sexes to do anything extensive with hybrids beyond keeping them.
 
Well I learn something new each day, thanks!

Apparently there is a Hybridization forum too, hah, I just learned that as well, oops.
 
My bateater is fairly calm, just as a few of my retics are. Hardcore feeding response, but once she realizes she isn't being fed, she is very handleable if a bit inquisitive. Granted, my experience is just around 6 months, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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