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Hybrid Snakes Forum???

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SgtFoster

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Greetings all,

Would anyone be interested in a forum and classifieds section regarding hybrid snakes? Not dealing with color morphs but true mixtures of snakes of different species, Rat x Pine for example. I’ve long been fascinated with hybrids and have offered to moderate the forum but the powers that be want to see if there is any interest first.

So, if this sounds as cool to you as it does me, please let us know with a post here.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you.

-SgtFoster

Sergeant S.W. Foster
US Army
www.DesertVets.org
www.IraqfromtheWindow.com
 
The Indigo people would crucify anyone who actually did that and come darn close to stoning those who propose it.

It's one of the few snakes I see reason for keeping pure. There is a limited supply of bloodlines and they are not all that easy to breed.

Talk of crossing species will elicit heated arguments from many people. Check out the Indigo forum on KS, it's an interesting place. Watch out for dan felice and fred albury though. felice has crossed indigos, I'm 95% on this and albury is a liar. Both of them have lots of folks fooled over there.

I would not do it myself nor would I own any crosses. Maybe years down the road if and when they're like corns, but not at present.

I have no doubt it could be done and only a little that it hasn't happened in the wild at some time, but would want nothing to do with it myself.

I do breed jungle corns, calking corn crosses and have done so for many years so I'm not against hybridization in general, just specifically with Drys.
 
I personally am all for a hybrid forum. Whether or not they can be controversial they have become a rather big part of the reptile world and it opens a door to new and exciting snakes that never existed before, or at least been seen. There are a lot of big name breeders who do a lot with hybrids, so why should we not have a forum??? I think Wes brought up a good point with the Indigos though. I mean bateaters are one thing, burms and retics are every where and genetically there is plenty of bloodlines to go around without any concern for breeding the pure forms. All in all though I see no reason not to have a hybrid forum, and can't understand why they dont have one yet. Even crappy old Kingsnake has one so why fauna would fall behind is beyond me. Hopefully we will get one over here soon enough. Have a great week, Dan M.
 
Whewww…I’ve certainly stirred up some emotions with my question. I emailed it to about 20 Indigo breeders who have websites and got mixed results on the possibility of doing, but certainly not mixed about IF I should do it as everyone is against it. The consensus is that it can be done but shouldn’t.

On the other hand, I sent that same question to about 10 website owners who are doing hybrid snakes of other varieties and it was 100% that it can and should be done.

I’m going to explain my thinking to you all and would appreciate opinions, both good and bad. I very much respect you Indigo breeders out there for all you’ve done to learn about, preserve, and propagate these beautiful snakes. I realize many of you are going to have negative feelings toward this, as I’ve already experienced with the answers to my emails. I want you to feel free to speak your heart & mind on the subject as I appreciate your input and thoughts. If someone can give me a sincere reason why I shouldn’t do this, I probably won’t.

That said, what I’m about to tell you is just an idea, I am not even close to implementing it and haven’t even decided if I’m going to…it’s just a thought.

OK, here’s what I’m thinking. What about taking some young female Eastern Indigos just old enough to breed. Feeding them up good and introducing a full grown male Black Pine who is also ready to breed, separating them when the act is done.

Then taking those babies and putting them back with Eastern Indigos. Then with those babies, start breeding for sales. The final product, several years down the line, would be 75% Eastern Indigo and the 25% that’s not would be a big, strong, gorgeous black snake.

Further breeding down the line could lower this percentage even more; bringing the product back to almost pure Indigo.

Now you’re probably asking yourself why? Here are my feelings on the matter. Eastern Indigos are the coolest snake out there, they make wonderful pets, and everybody wants them. However, most can’t afford them or don’t want to mess with the paperwork. Although the debate is still out, most of the Indigo breeders feel that the result of this mix would not require paperwork. If I decide to do this and when I am ready to sell, I would set up a website explaining EXACTLY what they are. I would never try to pass them off as Eastern Indigos. I would be very happy selling these hatchlings for $150 each and without the paperwork involved…I think they would sell like hotcakes.

The ultimate goal of this project would be to get Indigos onto the market for everyone to enjoy.

OK, I’m going to go dig out that footlocker I brought back from Iraq and put on my helmet and body armor and let you all have at me! LOL

Thanks for your interest.

--SgtFoster


Sergeant S.W. Foster
US Army Reserves
[email protected]
www.DesertVets.org
www.IraqfromtheWindow.com
 
A big female Eastern can easily lay 10 eggs.

Why not buy up a bunch of pure snakes, breed them to other pure snakes and just sell them cheap?

If you're selling purebreds for 150.00 with permits and shipping being another 150.00, you'll sell out all you have everyear. Heck, for that price I'll buy all you produce and sell them to mitch and we'll all make money.

As I've mentioned, I have hybridezed for YEARS but, for some reason, just don't think it's right with this species.
 
SgtFoster said:
Now you’re probably asking yourself why? Here are my feelings on the matter. Eastern Indigos are the coolest snake out there, they make wonderful pets, and everybody wants them. However, most can’t afford them or don’t want to mess with the paperwork. Although the debate is still out, most of the Indigo breeders feel that the result of this mix would not require paperwork. If I decide to do this and when I am ready to sell, I would set up a website explaining EXACTLY what they are. I would never try to pass them off as Eastern Indigos. I would be very happy selling these hatchlings for $150 each and without the paperwork involved…I think they would sell like hotcakes.
Click to expand...
While you may be forthcoming about the lineage/ancestry of these snakes, what about the people that will get these hybrids and try to pass them off as the real thing...there are enough people interested in indigos that the profit margin would be motivating for some. The result would likely be the accidental (or incidental, if you prefer) tainting of pure lines...though the sellers would argue: Who would know, so what is the big deal.

The ultimate goal of this project would be to get Indigos onto the market for everyone to enjoy.
Click to expand...
But the actual result of this project would be to get indigo hybrids onto the market. See the difference? I believe most indigo enthusiasts would turn up their noses at the hybrids, unless, or until, (as Wes stated) they became so widespread it just didn't matter anymore.
 
The problem with selling purebreds cheap would of course be the paperwork, which is half my reason for wanting to do this. The other being to bring the price down of course.

Yes, I see and agree with the problem of people selling them as purebred in later years. I guess I feel the risk would be worth the benefit. Besides, people interested in pure bloodlines are going to know to get new stock through established breeders as Indigos are not for the novice right now.

Yes I see the difference between pure and hybrids, but I think I/we can produce a snake that most people can afford and then enjoy.

--SgtFoster


Sergeant S.W. Foster
US Army Reserves
[email protected]
www.DesertVets.org
www.IraqfromtheWindow.com
 
I don't understand what your thinking is here.

The paperwork is literally 100.00. That's it. IF you truly want to get these snakes out to more people, then seriously, just breed them and sell them cheap.
 
A snake that sells for a grand, that you're selling for a hundred fifty with another hundred fifty for paperwork and shipping.....if someone is so intimidated by paperwork with those prices they shouldn't have the snake anyway.

It's a lame excuse.
 
Plus most states and i believe the feds tend to consider hybrids as being both parent species rather than neither- meaning that the resulting offspring are covered by whatever laws are the more restrictive. Hybrid indigos would certainly be something far less than an indigo while having all the same legal issues ad their own, brand spanking new set of ethical ones.
 
SgtFoster said:
Yes I see the difference between pure and hybrids, but I think I/we can produce a snake that most people can afford and then enjoy.
Click to expand...
The rest of the discussion aside, there are plenty of snakes available that people can afford and enjoy, so that line of thought doesn't wash. Colubrids, boas, pythons, venomous...ranging from about $10 right on up to whatever tag you would put on these hybrids. I am not going to get into the hybridization debate, because, quite frankly, you will do what you will do. The fact that you have gotten many strong responses so far, yet continue to ask (and seem somewhat serious about pursuing)_ seems to indicate that aren't overly concerned by the recommendations of others. If you opt to proceed, just don't try to pretend it is for a nobler reason. Simply admit that it is because you want to.
 
hhmoore said:
The rest of the discussion aside, there are plenty of snakes available that people can afford and enjoy, so that line of thought doesn't wash. Colubrids, boas, pythons, venomous...ranging from about $10 right on up to whatever tag you would put on these hybrids. I am not going to get into the hybridization debate, because, quite frankly, you will do what you will do. The fact that you have gotten many strong responses so far, yet continue to ask (and seem somewhat serious about pursuing)_ seems to indicate that aren't overly concerned by the recommendations of others. If you opt to proceed, just don't try to pretend it is for a nobler reason. Simply admit that it is because you want to.
Click to expand...
Damn Straight Skippy.
 
Oh and the original... petition (?) to have a hybrid forum...

What's wrong with "Genetics, Taxonomy, Hybridization" as it already exists on the site? It's not like there are so many threads that those intimately related subjects need to be split up.
 
Aside from the useless pollution of what is a small and valuable (not just monetarily) gene pool, what Seamus said is the simple fact. Hybridizing these snakes will not get you out of the necessary paperwork.
Most of the laws on the books concerning protected species actually specify that species and and hybrids thereof require permits.

Even in the states where this is not specified, it will not matter. If you create the hybrids, and get them back to the point that they look just like a pure indigo, they will be treated as such by any F&G department.
If an officer with the F&G sees a snake that looks identical to an indigo, you can claim they're hybrids all you want and it will make no difference because by looking at the snake that cannot be proven. The snake will be taken and the owner fined.

The end result of this project is obvious. Once the offspring are back to 75% or more indigo, and show no visible traces of the pollution by the pine snakes, a certain percentage of the offspring will be purchased by people who view them solely as a cheap way to produce what can be passed off as pure indigos, and they will do so.
The simple fact of the matter is permits are required. Regardless of the purchase price, if a potential owner doesn't want to get the necessary paperwork to own the species then they must do without them.
As Wes said, you can easily produce pure indigos and sell them for whatever you want, and the price can be low enough to negate the cost of the permit several times over.

Harald put it best, you will do what you want to do regardless of what anyone suggests. If you want to hybridize indigos, then you will, but don't do so under the guise that it's for a noble cause. Claiming it is to avoid permits, which it will not do, is rubbish.
 
As has been suggested, hybridizing is not essentially evil, but when you consider doing it to a species that is already rare in many respects, your end result will only bring harm to the species and this hobby. Not to mention you will alienate yourself from other breeders.

The other problem which now exists with opening this can of worms is that people will remember this thread vividly. From here on out, if you intend to breed indigos, I suggest documenting your efforts diligently. If you start selling indigos in the future, the purity will now be under scrutiny, and rightfully so.

Bart
 
bsharrah said:
As has been suggested, hybridizing is not essentially evil, but when you consider doing it to a species that is already rare in many respects, your end result will only bring harm to the species and this hobby. Not to mention you will alienate yourself from other breeders.

The other problem which now exists with opening this can of worms is that people will remember this thread vividly. From here on out, if you intend to breed indigos, I suggest documenting your efforts diligently. If you start selling indigos in the future, the purity will now be under scrutiny, and rightfully so.

Bart
Click to expand...


Amen :iagree:
 
If you want a hybrid forum, here's one that covers quite a bit.

http://www.spitfirereptiles.com/hybridhaven

It has slow traffic as it is not something I promote much but I merely have hopes for it to become a safe place to discuss them as well as creating a large database over time of what has and has not been created.
BTW, hybrid haters need no signing up. It'll just be a waste of time. You'll get booted per our TOS
Take a look!

-Yasser
 
A very very bad idea

My family lives on a very modest income to say the least. My wife and I recently saved up the money and purchased a Eastern Indigo. I was very scared because it was a lot of money to us. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. This snake is teetering on extinction and your talking of screwing up its gene pool. Part of the responsibility of owning an Indigo is making the financial commitment. If this snake wasn't in trouble it would be a lot cheaper. I tell you what SgtFoster do the right thing and buy a pure blood indigo, you cannot truly love snakes and do what you are proposing. You may find exactly what the indigo owners are trying to protect.

Want a cheap indigo? Why not look into Black tail cribos? Same snake really, a bit different coloration has the same awesome personality though. Anyone that is thinking about taking the steps to owning an indigo can definitely do their homework and research cribos as well. Black tails are supposed to be awesome pets. I also happen to think they are gorgeous and if it wasn't for the fact that I live in the eastern US and would like to get a pair of these to the Columbus zoo I would have bought a cribo from a reputable breeder instead.

Ok ok you still want an eastern indigo for a pet, there are also plenty of snakes that are not perfect that breeders sell for a lot cheaper. Great snakes maybe small or not able to breed but make excellent pets and need loving homes and they are still eastern indigos.

The idea is crap if you want to help indigos don't risk the chance of a hybrid snake screwing up the gene pool, and guess what, the indigo breeders will just charge more for secure bloodlines and true indigo lovers will pay for them every time. This snake is awesome in its pure form, if you buy one you will marvel at it. My family geeked out after ours shed the first time. You will do nothing for it but make it less than it already is... perfect. If you want to do the world justice or whatever it is you think you are going to do, do as a lot of people have proposed and get two indigos and sell the offspring for cheap.
 
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