Hybrids.....

[Wilomn]

I just noticed that the last few pages have been about snake hybrids NOT leopard geckos.

Could these posts be removed to a thread about snakes?

Sorry, too many forums covering the same topics.

 

[SPJ]

totally. i was just saying that to vinny (diabloboa) on the phone like 20 minutes ago... funny. plus one is arboreal and ones ground dwelling as well. it would be like crossing a hognose with a kingsnake (which are both colubrids) but worse.

im surprised anyone ever thought to cross them.

Far too many differences in these too animals.

This just goes too far. A corn/king cross or a burm/retic cross are one thing but these 2 snakes are soooo far apart, that the thought of even trying to cross them should not have even been considered.

What if the cross is more carpet than woma? They now lack the heat pits which are found in carpets? (NERD said none of the surviving babies have heat pits) What kind of effect will this have on the well-being of the animal?

This is just messing with nature way too much.

 

[SPJ]

Sorry, but Jungle Carpets and Coastal Carpets are NOT different species. They are BOTH Morelia spilota. They also interbreed where their natural ranges overlap.

And the jungle/diamond crosses are some of the most beautiful carpets around.

I am not against all hybrids/crosses. I just think this particular hybrid just too it too far. They are just too far apart on the evolutionary scale.

 

[aliceinwl]

I've heard a many instances of fattails and leos breeding. I got one of my three original leos from a woman who and 1.1 leos and 0.1 fattail caged together. I bought the female leo and she had never produced eggs for her previous owner because the male leo was only interested in breeding with the fattail. Maybe fattails and leos just aren't compatable genetically.

My only real concern with the hybrids is contamination. Sometimes closely related species will be crossed to get an albino or some other designer gene into the other species. With all the successive generations, the fact that the animals descended from a hybrid cross can get lost and lead to the genepool becoming contaminated...

-alice

 

[Gregg M]

Then you touch base on the fact that we don't know whats going on with hybrids inner workings and they will surly suffer from it. Okay lets take a step back and think about the leos we prize the most, albinos. that is a huge defect that affects their health. Please don't tell me your worryed about their quality of life of hybrids when you own and breed albinos of any species. Also a handful of members on the BC fourm and Constrictors fourm own bateaters and from what I know haven't had any problems.

Please don't get me wrong I am against most crosses but not hybrids.

have fun lynching me

No one is going to lynch you.....LOL But I see many problems in your post..... Something being albino, and two different species being crossed are not even close...... You want to produce "bateaters"??? well thats fine..... You most likely will not produce any anyway......

Albinism does not cause major DNA bonding points to not bond but hybridization does....... Albinism does not cause cancer and it does not cause intestines to be placed in areas were they should not be.....
Oh wait, it also does not cause skeletal structure deformities or weak DNA strands but hybridization does.....

Weak DNA strands and mismatched RNA bonding points are found in ALL hybrids..... It is proven that this will cause some type of defect or illness at some point in the organisms life...... The info is out there.....

Like I said Some hybrids might work out with little to no problems for most of their life, but at what expence???

Someone also said something about IJ Carpets and Coastal Carpets crossing in the wild.....LOL They are on two separate continents..... Besides, I am not talking about subspecies or locality intergrades..... I am talking about animals that are not even in the same genus......

I was not going to bring up the carpet/woma and NERD thing here...... I already gave my opinion on that on the other site....

And infertility is just one of the many issues that can be involved in hybrids..... Like I said, things might look ok on the outside but on the inside and on a DNA level it is not pretty......

It is unethical and irresponsible to be part of this fad..... I just hope this hybrid crap fades out before captive population are tainted to the point where you can not be sure if your animal is pure or not..... This can snowball very fast.....

But since everyone is on the NERD thing, do you think that 5 live animals out of 21 eggs is a good hatch rate????
I think that having less than a third of your eggs hatch is a VERY good indication that there are severe problems with these hybrids on a biological level...... And if it is due to not being incubated right, well what does that tell you?????

 

[Will Leary]

Gregg,

If you are referring to my post, why don't you try reading it again (this time without your blood-thirsty hybrid hater goggles on)? It says "JUNGLES AND COASTALS" interbreed where their natural ranges overlap. They are in fact on the same continent, and like it or not, they DO interbreed. I was correcting someone on the first page who said they were different species, ...Irian Jayas were never mentioned.

 

[DiabloBoa]

my only real concern is the very real possibility that someone will cross and backcross the leopard and fattailed geckos to produce animals that more closely resemble one or the other for the newest color or pattern morph for purposes of getting rich quick, which im sure plenty of people are in this for. making visual differentiation impossible so the can say what they want.

i just dont have much trust in people to be honest and responsible enough to control their creations.

 

[peachstategeckos]

Actually alot of people have said they have seen pictures or have a leo x fattail cross. I'm not saying it's right and I don't have any links to these pics but I'm just saying I think i's already been done although the hatch rate is really little and if they do get babies they usually die.

 

[DiabloBoa]

where are the pics exactly? im very curious about what they look like.

 

[No1snotsucker]

No snotsucker, the above is what you said. Read it carefully. It makes no sense.

Yeah I don't see how that slipped by me TWICE but that sentence is all screwed up. Something like "Hybrids, including Bats are generally sterile." was ment to come out.

I'm still waiting on the species of hybrid that is "generally" sterile.

Okay I'm still curious as to where your going with this? Just to entertain you; mule, bateater, ligor, and a Tigon.

 

[No1snotsucker]

You want to produce "bateaters"??? well thats fine..... You most likely will not produce any anyway......

No really, who told ya that. But if luck goes my way and I hatch one in the next couple years I'll email ya a photo okay?

Albinism does not cause major DNA bonding points to not bond but hybridization does....... Albinism does not cause cancer and it does not cause intestines to be placed in areas were they should not be.....
Oh wait, it also does not cause skeletal structure deformities or weak DNA strands but hybridization does.....

I'm being blown away by the misinformation thats flowing from your finger tips. Albinism doensn't cuase cancer? Do me a favor and say that to yourself again. Now lets slow down and think about this. To even achieve the weak immune systems of albinos you first must inbreed only making the genetics weaker. All health issues have been amplifed. Now for the intestines to be placed in areas were they shoud not be thing, have you ever bred snakes? I assume you have. Have you ever had any deformites before? Most everyone does. Although not alot they still have them. When you create a hybrid it's way worse, I would expect that because the breeding itsn't supposed to happen. The hybrid shouldn't exist, but thats why they are so appealling. So what if you have a handful of deformites and have to toss a few in the freezer. Thats life, these animals are livestock to us. We breed the hell out of them and sale them to fund more breeding projects to produce a more inbred animal, thats it. Thats the hobby who has the most inbred reptile.

I am talking about animals that are not even in the same genus......

Thats why it's so dang cool.

Like I said, things might look ok on the outside but on the inside and on a DNA level it is not pretty......

Okay your making it sound like an established animal will up and die. If so please back this up with something other than your opinion.

By the way if this has you so up in arms how in the world do you sleep at night with everyone inbreeding their animals to express simple res morphs? Some people do people do parent to offspring, and even some do sibling to sibling. WOOOOHOOOO!!!!! Go get'em.

It is unethical and irresponsible to be part of this fad.....

I guess I'm going to hell, whos coming with me??

 

[Gregg M]

So what if you have a handful of deformites and have to toss a few in the freezer. Thats life, these animals are livestock to us. We breed the hell out of them and sale them to fund more breeding projects to produce a more inbred animal, thats it.

Well the thing is, is that it is more than just a hand full of deformities..... You are talking two thirds of a clutch that goes bad..... In some hybrid cases, the entire clutch is bad......

But anyway, you have proven my point with your post..... That is something I would expect from a hybrid supporter...... No ethics and a very irresponsible attitude when it comes to our captive animals and their populations....

Ethics and being a responsible breeder has nothing to do with hell..... But being an unethical, irresponsible breeder does say alot about a person and their worth (or lack there of) in this hobby.....

Inbreeding is something that happens on a regular basis in the wild..... Isolated populations have no choice but to inbreed..... Animals that are not in the same genus, DO NOT breed in the wild......

Seriously, if you are going to come at me with a comparison, you need to do alot better than that..... Show me something that is worth something...... You know, info with backing and substance.....

 

[No1snotsucker]

Well the thing is, is that it is more than just a hand full of deformities..... You are talking two thirds of a clutch that goes bad..... In some hybrid cases, the entire clutch is bad......

But anyway, you have proven my point with your post..... That is something I would expect from a hybrid supporter...... No ethics and a very irresponsible attitude when it comes to our captive animals and their populations....

Ethics and being a responsible breeder has nothing to do with hell..... But being an unethical, irresponsible breeder does say alot about a person and their worth (or lack there of) in this hobby.....

Inbreeding is something that happens on a regular basis in the wild..... Isolated populations have no choice but to inbreed..... Animals that are not in the same genus, DO NOT breed in the wild......

Seriously, if you are going to come at me with a comparison, you need to do alot better than that..... Show me something that is worth something...... You know, info with backing and substance.....

Cool well I'm done. I know I don't want to go in circles and you probably don't either.

 

[diablohogs]

eh, couldnt help it.

Animals that are not in the same genus, DO NOT breed in the wild

actually cross genra is supposed to be completely impossible. while it may not occur in the wild, explain cornsnakes breeding to kingsnakes (probably one of the more popular hybrids in the reptile world). genus elaphae and genus lampropeltis.

you see the real problem isnt so much hybridizers or purists. its the taxonomic classification system we use (GO PHYLOCODE!!!). taxonomy was implemented before the theory of natural selection was even thought up. a bunch of scientists roaming the earth naming anything that didnt phenotypically resemble an exsisting species after a collegue or using latin and greek to expalin the look of the animal. eastern hognose(common name)= platyrhinos (taxanomic classification)= plate-nose (translated).

so should we be able to cross a king snake with a corn snake? and i dont mean ethically. according to taxonomy the answer is a big NO. so why do they breed? and why do they have non sterile offspring (shouldnt they be mules)?

crossing a woma to a jungle carpet python in my opinion is wrong. the pits that are present for detecting prey in the carpet python that are not present in a woma make it an ethically wrong cross. a perfect example of why hybridization can be inethical.

the idea that albinism causes cancer is new to me. id like to see some evidence that this is true in reptiles. although, i could understand skin cancer from the lack of melanin but other than that im confused.

no1snotsucker... first off your screen name in addition to your view on reptiles as livestock, that can live or die has to be the best tool any anti-hybridizer has in favor of preaching hybridizing is wrong.

whats the name imply anyway? that you can get one over on just about anyone? your turning ME into a purist. or at least making me paranoid about the future of the hobby.

i really like the hybrids that jeremiah owns. matter of fact i may end up with a pyro-king-corn someday, as a pet. but i can see where people become worried when someone like no1snotsucker (no ones not a sucker? yeah well im not so i guess that makes you wrong on at least one account) starts ranting about how reptiles are livestock and how hes going to hell.

honestly if you think its that bad why do you do it? i personally would never practice any method i felt was wrong. its your duty to do the right thing when breeding anything.

also gregg... dont be so sterotypical with your claims. not all people who breed hybrids are out for fame or glory or money. some are just out for a better understanding of taxonomy or genetics or just plain reptiles. theres more to this world than just black or white. sometimes theres a grey area.

maybe we can get jeremiah out of his cave and on here to defend the colubrid hybrids he produces.

the closest thing i have to a hybrid would be my leopard geckos and my red tail boa... and i dont think that qualifies me as a hybridizer. lets get some REAL hybridizers ( a few names come mind) on here to speak in defense of what they do cause honestly this is all i have to say on the subject.

 

[DiabloBoa]

in the end i dont think anybodys gonna change anybodys minds on this but maybe someone who hasnt formed their opinion yet will read these hybrid threads and be able to make well informed choice with both sides posting.
im sure if we can keep high ground then some hybridizers will bury themselves. thereby appealing to others.id hate to see a pissing contest though (which would be inevitable if it continues)

 

[Gregg M]

Chad,
You know I have respect for you and your opinions..... But I did find a few faults in your last post.....

First is the mule thing.... It all depends on what bonding points on the DNA strand do not bond..... Infertility is just one of many problems that come out of hybridization.....

Just because two species can produce live young does not mean there are not other problems that we do not see from the outside..... Like I said, when you break it down to a molecular level, thing are a mess in ALL hybrids.....

The majority of hybrids are weaker and usually live shorter life spans..... There is nothing that proves "hybrid vigor" to be true in reptiles.... Infact, alot points the other way..... Lets say less than one third of a clutch living past the first month for instance..... Right there should be enough to tell anyone with a half a head that something is not right.....

King/corn hybrids are just a joke..... Does anyone honestly believe that this cross happens in the wild???? Can someone actually say that if a king comes across a corn in the wild, the king would try to breed the corn???? LOL.... The corn would be lunch, not a mate..... The fact is, kings and corns were bred together by being tricked.....

I am not against all hybrids..... Hybrids that happen in the wild in a natural setting, without humans forcing it on them is one thing...... But when people start to cross species that would never cross in the wild for any reason, is a totaly different story.....

Another fault in your post is the mention of leopard geckos being hybrids and redtail boas being hybrids..... Those are actually examples of intergrades, not hybrids..... With the leos and boas, you are talking about locality differences and subspecies intergrades, not totaly separate species hybridization.... There is a HUGE difference.....

And Chad, tell me honestly, how many breeders are producing hybrids in the name of taxonomy???? LOL..... They do it only for self gradification by being the first to make these Frankenstein reptiles and to be able to put a super high, rediculous price tag on one of these mutts.....

It is pretty black and white.....

 

[diablohogs]

Lets say less than one third of a clutch living past the first month for instance

colubrid crosses dont have that problem but reclassification may prove that its not even a hybrid to begin with. taxonomy is flawwed. just look at the rat snakes.

The majority of hybrids are weaker and usually live shorter life spans..... There is nothing that proves "hybrid vigor" to be true in reptiles....

with the pyro king corns theyll breed just about any colubrid and they eat like crazy. sounds like hybrid vigor to me.

however... i dont agree with the cross of the woma to the JCP like ive stated before. it would be like crossing a rattlesnake to a gaboon. but worse.

Just because two species can produce live young does not mean there are not other problems that we do not see from the outside

agreed but its probably safe to say any 3 year old hybrid that can reproduce is probably fine, right? otherwise i think problems would emerge.

I am not against all hybrids..... Hybrids that happen in the wild in a natural setting, without humans forcing it on them is one thing...

those are called intergrades.

Another fault in your post is the mention of leopard geckos being hybrids and redtail boas being hybrids..... Those are actually examples of intergrades, not hybrids.

which is why i said it DOESNT qualify me as a hybridizer. see...

the closest thing i have to a hybrid would be my leopard geckos and my red tail boa... and i dont think that qualifies me as a hybridizer. lets get some REAL hybridizers ( a few names come mind) on here to speak in defense of what they do cause honestly this is all i have to say on the subject.

honestly i agree with a good chunk of what youve had to say, gregg. there are risks ecspecially when you dont have the forethought to try to cross animals with the same parts (i.g. pits).

the elaphae had to be reclassified. wanna know why i think that is? NO ONE HAS EVER CROSSED AN OLD WORLD RAT SNAKE WITH A NEW WORLD RAT SNAKE. and yet cornsnakes produce viable offspring when crossed to:
-california kingsnakes
-honduran milk snakes
-gopher snakes
-gray banded king snakes
-mountain kingsnakes
ect...

how can you say a cave dwelling rat snakes or taiwanese beauty rat snakes are more closely related to a cornsnake than a california kingsnake? show me one cornsnake that has EVER been crossed to an old world rat snake. better yet... show me the resluting hybrid.

something went wrong in the classification of colubrids and hybridization is what probably proved it.

taxonomy has been around since Linnaeus published "Systema Naturae" in 1758 while Darwins "Origin of Species" was published in 1856 and the theory of natural selection and evolution were not even accepted until after the death of Charles Darwin in 1882.

once we switch over to phylocode (if?), ill happily say hybrids are unethical. in the mean time, what we call hybrids in colubrids i think are perfectly okay given they are sold as such and not misrepresented as pure snakes.

this is a 2nd generation king-corn. king-corn X king-corn... sorry about the picture...its the only one i have...

 

[Gregg M]

I think most of what you have written is very well thought out and in my opinion, correct, but this is where I do not agree with you....

In the mean time, what we call hybrids in colubrids i think are perfectly okay given they are sold as such and not misrepresented as pure snakes.

Obviously, this is not where the problem starts but it is the begining of a very huge snowball that will destroy pure bloodlines.....

Not everyone will represent them correctly..... These will be crossed to the original parent species and the hybrid look will not be as noticable but the tainted genetics will still be there.....

Sure maybe a few people that buy these hybrids will represent them as such but more people will not.....

Other than the quote above, I think your post was very good and has substance to it..... I dont care what anyone says about you Chad, you have a good head on your shoulders.....

 

[diablohogs]

Obviously, this is not where the problem starts but it is the begining of a very huge snowball that will destroy pure bloodlines.....

i agree in the potential of this statement. it bothers me to imagine hybrids being produced and backcrossed to parent stock for the sake of carrying over a mutation that otherwise wouldnt exsist OR to think of some kid buying a king corn from a pet store or offline, from a breeder that hasnt checked the credentials of thier buyer, who ends up breeding it to a pure cornsnake and selling them as such.

i like pure snakes. nice locale specific reptiles. i want to know the exact rock or board it was found under. i want a picture of the guy (or girl) next to the cactus or tree where he found it holding the reptile with a caption that says where it came from (or its parents). of course in animals from other countries (and species that contain alot of morphs like cornsnakes) this is much more difficult but honestly i couldnt even tell you the specific country of origin my leos came from, other than what state in the u.s. they were produced in.

and for the record... this whole AFT X leo thing is starting to sink in as a really bad idea. leopard geckos are mixed up enough being intergrades.

besides its us as leopard gecko breeders that lose out. leopard geckos are way cooler!! AFT lose thier tails easier have less color and are a fair amount less charismatic. go over to the AFT forum... youll be back...lol! they're just not as cool. its like comparing a celebrity to thier cousin. and leopard geckos have all the traits of a fine celebrity... grace, style, charecter, beauty and a great singing voice!!! leopard geckos are to a double cheeseburger what an AFT is to french fries...lol...okay im having too much fun with this! some AFT breeder is gonna chew me out, i better shuttup.

for colubrids: i like the "hybrids". just keep pure cornsnakes and other species seperate from the "hybrid" crosses. i have cornsnakes and id be pretty upset if i found that they were anything but pure cornsnake. maybe we need to make a standard that a "hybrid" must have at least 3 kinds of species crossed in it to be saleable, making its crazy pattern distinguishable from every pure form of its heritage. a wildly patterned generic snake of sorts.

for leopard geckos: keep the afts away from my leopard geckos!! i may just riot with marcia and we live close to each other. you know we could just band together and drive to your house... and ive got 5 bucks that says vinnys comin with us.

for womas X JCP: your gonna have some explaining to do if Australia finds out about this. just think if paul hogan knew what you were doing. crocodile dundee would be pissed!

p.s. thanks for the compliments gregg. i promise you if i ever get a rhino viper from you (or anyone for that matter) i wont cross it to anything other than another rhino viper (no gabinos for me).