Hypo x Cay Caulker

[Metachrosis]

Well said ........HH
Hard to hold back on the youngun's sometimes huh?
But sadly thats where the hobby has ended up,everyone is out to be the "first" with something off the wall "NEW" without any thought to the residual fallout that remains long after they have cashed the checks.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Just for those who keep referring to the cays as islands.........They are hardly more than sand bars with a little green on them. And being such, even on the larger ones, the population of the snakes in the wild is way down due to the collection of specimens, natural selection, etc.
Cochino Grande is hardly more than 2 miles across, and Cochino Pequeno even smaller. How many Boas do you think could survive there? And the cays off Belize, some of them, are even smaller than that.
Not having many in the wild should be all the more reason to keep the insular boas as pure as we can. I like snakes for their natural beauty, and I am not a locality buff either. I have no problems with someone wanting to exploit a trait from say a Nic BCI and combine with say Honduran BCI for it's trait (mainland).

But taking a Nic, and crossing with say, a Corn Island, even though both are BCI and both Nicaraguan, I would not like that much at all. IMO it would be no different than crossing a BCI with a BCO, or BCA, or BCC. The insular forms have been isolated long enough to genetically alter their appearance, size, head shapes, etc. I believe one day they will be concidered something other than BCI.

Anyway, that's what I feel on this subject.
Rick

 

[JCCS]

I was really hoping this thread wouldn't get the dignity of a response. Again, why would you do this? If you want an anery appearing hypo, buy a ghost. I know the argument is that if everyone represents them properly, it will all be alright in the end. This logic is great in a world where everything works out according to plan. Unfortunately I do not live in this world, and doubt anyone else here does. In the real world, half the people are too ignorant to label what they are selling correctly when it comes to crosses. The other half has a significant group that will blatantly lie and tell the consumer whatever they want to hear in order to make a sale. This means that the crossed blood animals will be bred back into Caulkers, or Hogs, or whatever. It is a bad road to go down that will eventually lead to everyone having a bunch of boas of no specific locality. I just do not see the point to all of it. This is just my rant, not specified towards anyone, just observations that I have had first hand in some cases.

Chris Canada-Smith

 

[hhmoore]

you maintained your self control very well, Chris...I knew you could do it

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

you maintained your self control very well, Chris...I knew you could do it

I agree with the both of you, i just hope that when people see these questions, they take the time to read the responses to these as well. theyre all really well thought out answers and things every breeder should think about before sticking two animals together. ^_^

 

[vemon2000]

?

I agree with the both of you, i just hope that when people see these questions, they take the time to read the responses to these as well. theyre all really well thought out answers and things every breeder should think about before sticking two animals together. ^_^

I never thought that a simple YES or NO question could be so hard for people. All I wanted to know is if anyone has ever breed these two together. Wasn't reallly asking what people thought about breeding these together but I guess if you have nothing better to do.

 

[Metachrosis]

Asking questions like this on a forum is like seeing if rocks float...........
There will be ripples in the answer.



M/

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I never thought that a simple YES or NO question could be so hard for people. All I wanted to know is if anyone has ever breed these two together. Wasn't reallly asking what people thought about breeding these together but I guess if you have nothing better to do.

Lighten up partner. You need to concider where you are at. You have people here, and other places as well, who take this sort of thing serious. You laid out a question, simple enough. But crossing is a touchy subject for many. You have to expect a little bit of a hard time when this sort of stuff comes up. Take it with a grain of salt. Learn from it if you can, and move on.

 

[Boa4u]

I never thought that a simple YES or NO question could be so hard for people. All I wanted to know is if anyone has ever breed these two together. Wasn't reallly asking what people thought about breeding these together but I guess if you have nothing better to do.

In answer to your question vemon, I have not heard of such a cross either, and don't feel bad about the criticisms. I know that the purists have deep convictions regarding their opinions, but we are still in America and being able to voice you own opinion is one of the things that makes this country great.

This is not the first time that I have seen purist around this forum rip others who cross boas. I think we all have the right to express our opinions but is ripping someone for even asking about crossing boas really necessary? Why not respect other opinions instead of trying to control what people breed or don't breed?

Seems to me that people such as Gus Renfro who are known for purebreeds will always have a market for their animals because by building a reputation of purebreeding and being a person of integrity, the people who want to buy purebreeds in the future will seek out people like Gus.

Forgive the dog reference which I know has been done to death in discussions such as these, but if I am not mistaken, Dobermans are a mixture of Rotweiler, Greyhound, and English Pointer? To this day, you can still buy Dobermans, Rotweilers, Greyhounds, and English Pointers. My point is that there will always be someone that will preserve a breed, or in the boa's case, a locality.

I don't buy the argument that the crossing boas will lead to locality extinction. I think crossing boas will just necessitate people being a little more careful in choosing a breeder to purchase purebreeds from. I personally like both localities and crosses. But if I were only into localities, I think I would encourage the "mutt breeders" to cross all they want, it would be good for my sales!

 

[JCCS]

Hi Alex, I respect your viewpoint and let me make myself a little clearer. I am not a purist. I breed all sorts of boas. I have bred hypos which are crosses even though people argue about which localities are present in them. I also just purchased a pair of het bloods that have three different localities tied into them. All of these breedings were done with the intent of bringing a morph into the "Colombian" bloodline. I have less issues with these breedings because the Colombian blood is already shot and is great for the morph market.
I am against pointless crossing of very rare localities just so someone can have their jollies. What people who cross the Hogs are doing is not bringing Hog blood into the Colombians, it is bringing Colombian blood into the Hogs. They intend to produce higher percentage Hog animals until they are nearly indistinguishable from pure Hogs. This would undoubtedly happen with the Caulker also.
That is my issue on this topic and as long as people keep showing disrespect to these localities by asking questions of this nature I will continue answering them as such.

Chris Canada-Smith

 

[Boa4u]

Hi Alex, I respect your viewpoint and let me make myself a little clearer. I am not a purist. I breed all sorts of boas. I have bred hypos which are crosses even though people argue about which localities are present in them. I also just purchased a pair of het bloods that have three different localities tied into them. All of these breedings were done with the intent of bringing a morph into the "Colombian" bloodline. I have less issues with these breedings because the Colombian blood is already shot and is great for the morph market.
I am against pointless crossing of very rare localities just so someone can have their jollies. What people who cross the Hogs are doing is not bringing Hog blood into the Colombians, it is bringing Colombian blood into the Hogs. They intend to produce higher percentage Hog animals until they are nearly indistinguishable from pure Hogs. This would undoubtedly happen with the Caulker also.
That is my issue on this topic and as long as people keep showing disrespect to these localities by asking questions of this nature I will continue answering them as such.

Chris Canada-Smith

Hi Chris. While my comments were not specifically directed at you (I know that the theory of locality extinction is not exclusively yours) I am happy to respectfully exchange ideas with you and anyone else in this forum for that matter.

I think you are being a little hard on our poor Colombian boas in thinking of them as some sort of second class citizen...lol! I am sure a lot of people would argue that pure Colombians are still available today. Granted, it has become increasingly more difficult to find pure Colombians, which as I stated in my previous post, makes it all the more important to find a reputable breeder when looking for a specific locality. Whatever your rationale is regarding the Colombian boas, a cross is still a cross.

"Pointless crossings" is very subjective terminology. What you might find pointless might be very interesting or even crucial to someone else. Also, a seemingly pointless cross might lead to some real interesting stuff. For example, what if everyone thought, it was "pointless" to cross the Boawoman strain(form) of hypo with a Sharp Albino (or het for Sharp Albino, or whatever it is that makes the Paradigm) since we already had two well established hypo lines with the orangetail and the salmons? Then, maybe, the Paradigm boa might have never come about. By performing that cross, has a new strain of T+ been discovered? I don't know, but I find it all very fascinating.

On the topic of disrespect, I don't feel that someone asking a question about crossing localities is being disrespectful. In posts number 28 of this thread, I find it kind of funny that Richard is telling vemon2000 to "lighten up" when it seems like the ones who are a little up tight and hypersensitive are the locality defenders. I felt vemon was kind of ganged up on which prompted me to voice my opinon.

This logic is great in a world where everything works out according to plan. Unfortunately I do not live in this world, and doubt anyone else here does. In the real world, half the people are too ignorant to label what they are selling correctly when it comes to crosses. The other half has a significant group that will blatantly lie and tell the consumer whatever they want to hear in order to make a sale.

Chris, I admire the passion that you and others here have for localities and keeping their blood lines pure. But it seems like you have totally lost faith in evil boa crossers in this business/trade/hobby of ours. In the "real world" we can't just deal in terms of absolutes either, as in your accounting of 100% of the people selling crosses in the above referenced post. I think the fear/concern of localities being wiped of the face of the earth because of crosses is a little extreme. I mean no disrespect to your or anyone else's viewpoint here. We can all find reasons to be offended every day. What makes a world of difference is understanding the intent in someones statements. I don't think that vemon intended to offend anyone with his question that seems to have caused such a "disturbance in the force".

This goes out to the forum in general. As a wise Jedi (Master Yoda) once said "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate". Remember we can all disagree without making other forum participants feel unwelcome or embarrassed or belittled for asking a question or putting forth an opinion. If not, this forum will just end up consisting of a bunch of people with all the same viewpoint. What fun is that? Variety is the spice of life...

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Well, since you quoted Me and My "Lighten up", I feel I gotta chime in again.

When you come back with a comment........"I never thought that a simple YES or NO question could be so hard for people. All I wanted to know is if anyone has ever breed these two together. Wasn't really asking what people thought about breeding these together but I guess if you have nothing better to do." ............ in responce to questions you asked on line in a public forum, you open yourself up to whatever comes your way. I figure I was sorta light handed with him myself.

Yes, he only asked a question. Just happens to be a pretty touchy subject some places. When asking those type of questions, you should expect some negative responses, and not take them as personal, but rather with a grain of salt.

People like Gus Renfro, and others won't live forever either. If we don't get and keep, people who are up and coming into the hobby, educated about this stuff, than who's to say there will be pure locality boas in the future, for future generations? I sure can't say that. Sorta depends on who gets the pure ones now and in the near future I would think. Not all have the same integrity as some of the known locality breeders. Just take a look at all the scams in the BOI. LOL

I don't take these subjects as hard as some, but I do understand where they are coming from, and I also disagree with crossing these two localities. It just ain't necessary, and apparantly not a very welcome idea for most.

In answer to his question........... Nope. And I'm pretty glad for it too.


Rick

 

[SPJ]

I am sorry but I do not thinking crossing these animals would do any good except to bring a few extra bucks into someones pocket and eventually muddy up the entire genepool. The first person to make the cross may be honest and represent the animal as a cross but we all know down the line with future breedings, the history will not be disclosed.

I have a pair of locale specific boas that I would NEVER cross and would never sell to anyone else who had the intentions of crossing them. I have already been approached to see if I was interested in pairing one of them with a salmon to try and produce mini salmons. Sorry but the answer is no. People need to try and preserve the locale animals, especially ones with only a small wild population left.

 

[Boa4u]

Richard and Steve, you guys both make some good points. I guess that what really seems to be at the heart of the matter here is our perception of human nature. I would like to believe that there will always be people that will take an interest in maintaining localities pure long after we are all gone, just like there will always be people making Dobermans or the next newest morph. I also agree that there are lot of scammers and people in it only for a quick buck, but I also maintain hope that good honest people can still be found and will still be found long after we are gone. I appreciate your points of view.

Richard, you are right about education, but not everybody has your level of education on these matters. To say that you open yourself up when posting in an a public forum and that with a touchy subject you should expect some negative comments is also assuming that the original poster was educated enough on these matters to know he was hitting upon a touchy subject, which may or may not have been the case. Regardless, if this forum is supposed to be about exchanging ideas and helping each other and to further our knowledge an this hobby/business, the subject matter should not elicit responses that may be perceived as angry or degrading. For example, Metachrosis seemed to come on a little strong, which speaks wonders about his passion but to the uninitiated, may just look like plain old aggression.

We do need to educate newbies, but I think it should be an education of both schools of thought so people will know better what they are doing wheather they choose to follow one, the other, or both. I just don't see it going completely one way or the other so I think you have to train people for both. Just like you can't have good without evil, you can't have localities without crosses. What I mean is that the crosses make the localities all the more important, all the more relevant, and all the more worthwhile to preserve. Crosses will keep interest and focus on the localities because there is nothing like the threat of losing something to inspire its preservation.

 

[jme04c]

Hi! I don't mean to offend anyone, I just see so many people commenting on how pretty some mutts are and how they want babies when they produce, i don't understand why you're being so hard on someone who wants to produce something different themselves. I agree that you shouldn't sell them as pure bred, but as long as you're honest...

 

[JCCS]

Hi Alex, I know you weren't just targeting me, but I wanted to give the reason that I feel strongly on this subject. I was not coming down hard on Colombians at all, but just saying that 99% of the blood is crossed with something or cannot be verified. I love Colombians, 90% of my collection is Colombian. I am just being honest, I cannot say that I can prove that any snake in my collection is pure Colombian.
As for my pointless crossing, I was not referring to designer morphs in the slightest. I love breeding morphs, but I also love my localities and can somehow keep myself from incorporating the two, lol. The pointless breeding I am referring to is breeding a hypo to a caulker, which will not even pump more color into the hypo, but do the opposite. The only possible argument for it is to produce a dwarf hypo. This can be attained by selective breeding and can have astounding results. I can find no reasonto breed these localities into morphs. That is why I refer to them as pointless.
And to Jme4c, There are other ways of producing pretty snakes. There is no other way to produce that locality. LAnd like I said earlier, there is going ot be someone down the line that either doesn't know the difference and will sell the mix as one or the other locality, or someone who will flat out lie to make the sale. I have seen both first hand. I can't count on both hands how many times I have seen nicaraguans or other locales being sold as Hogs.

Chris

 

[jme04c]

That is true. I have Guyanas, Surinams and Colombians and don't cross them, but mutts are usually very healthy animals. If you wanted to produce a dwarf hypo this way you could get some very happy, healthy babies rather than crossing smaller babies with their smaller parents

 

[JCCS]

Jessica, we are talking snakes here, not dogs. There is enough genetic diversity to go around. There is no need dilute a very small amount of pure blood in order to make smaller snakes.

Chris

 

[jme04c]

Tru, but I know people who've crossed two albinos, parents with offspring, and brothers and sisters with hopes to produce more of a specific trait (that's what a morph is ) and came out with some pretty funky babies. I'm not saying this is wrong but hey, crossing different localities not going to hurt the animal. I can definately see where you're coming from, I absolutely love my locality specific and wouldn't cross them, but like others have said, there's people doing a great job of keeping bloodlines pure.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

A "MORPH" is nothing more than a genetic anomaly. A mutated form of a specific gene depending on the trait. If you selectively breed for a certain trait, it's not a morph, but selectively bred.
Lets use Jeff Ronnes Pastels as an example. Not a morph, but an isolated trait from normal Colombian boas. Still gorgeous animals in anyones eyes. But Colombian none the less, with isolated characteristics.

My argument with the Island boas, is that through natural isolation, they have developed their own characteristics. Some have different head shapes different scales, different colors, dwarfism, etc. In a quite literal sense, geographic isolation has changed them. IMO they are no longer BCI. Of course, you won't convince many of this.

To me it's the same as crossing an American alligator with a dwarf camen to make the gator smaller, or the camen bigger. What for? If you want a small gator like critter, you get the camen, not the gator. If you want a dwarf Hypo, go buy a Hog Island Boa.

I guess it's just hard for me to see the benefit of a pairing like that.


Rick