Hypocritical Treatment of Certain Members Regarding Ads?

[KelliH]

Earlier today I clicked on an ad here by J & J Reptiles entitled, "THEY ARE FINALLY HERE...GRAVIDS!!!". You can see the ad for yourself here:

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106565

I saw that these snakes were being labeled as, "Burgundy / het red axanthic type, very light/ axanthic type, Broken stripe, High gold". Now granted, earlier in the ad he did state, "Below are descriptions of these females, we are not calling them morphs, just what they look like." but please, he's using names of proven ball python morphs to describe some of these. To top it all off, they all just look like normals.

Then Rick from Ball Boutique asked a few questions. J & J's answers are in red,

A few questions:
1. Will they eat when I receive them?
We both know that for the most part c.b gravid females will not feed, so why would you expect imported females to feed.
2. How do you know that they are gravid?
They are noticeably gravid when we get them , unless you are a used car salesman, it is easy to tell.
3. Are they guaranteed to lay fertile eggs?
There is no possible way to guarantee they will lay fertile eggs, c.b or w.c you never know.
4. Do you guarantee that they are free of parasites outside and inside their body.
We remove any visible parasites upon arrival, being gravid we do do not treat them here to avoid any risk to the eggs. We recommend treating them like any new arrival and keeping them in quarantine, and treating them once there eggs have been laid.

Then Harold Moore states, "ok - this is a classified ad.
J&J didn't refer to "minor morphs", they said "Below are descriptions of these females, we are not calling them morphs, just what they look like."
If you want to make comparisons to other dealers, rehash Ed Clark, or anything else not involved with the sale/purchase of these animals, please do it in a more appropriate place.". That's fine and understandable, but I was not sure where else to discuss the issue.

I then receive a pm from Harold stating, "IMO, a person's classified ad is not the place for continued discussion/debate, or comparison to another seller. If you want to continue to discuss the descriptions used in BP advertising, or the hypocrisy within the community, you could do it in the BP forum or the General Business section. If you think it is something that reflects upon J&J, you could take the approach Seamus did & start a thread in the BOI.
H"

Fair enough, which is why I am starting this thread here.

Now, I would like to bring your attention to the thread about Ed Clark and his supposed mislabeling of ball pythoms:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99747

Unfortunately, the original ad of Ed's which caused the thread to be started in the first place (and to which Seamus linked to) is now gone. Luckily, however, Seamus took a screenshot, and these are the terms Ed was using to describe his ball pythons: Gold Stripe Harlequin, Gold Stripe Black Ball, Striped Brown Headed Granite.

Now, here are some of the comments made in this thread about Ed's use of these terms:
(Please, anyone that I am quoting please do not take offense, I am just quoting the words you posted)

Quoted by Bobby Hill:

Seamus is correct!! He was selling these as morphs/minor morphs. Captive hatched normal fancy import babies can be bought all day long in large lots for $7.00 each. Ed has edited his ad, it is not the same ad that was first submitted.

Quoted by Shrap:

First you have the borderline ads here by Ed trying to pass off CH imports as "minor morphs". We all know that they are nothing more than fancy normals that should call for a few bucks more in price.

Quoted by Ed Clark:

I just dont see how this ad in question could be misinterpred as misrepresentation in any way, I stated over and over that the ball pythons in question were recently imported captive hatched imports.

Quoted by v2rherp:

i really didn't see a problem with the original ad. they were advertised as ch imports. anyone buying ch imports knows that genetics aren't guaranteed. alot of people use the names like granite,banded,ringer,harlequin,shatter,black back,blurry,reduced,tiger, etc. quite often and freely.

i have more of a problem, with the really new and unheard and unproven morph names. ie "emerald jewels" used in ads.

ed, didn't make up these names and imo, the ad was pretty par for the course for ch imports.

Now, here are some screenshots I took today, spent about 15 minutes doing it but TRUST ME I could have spent much more time because there are a ton of ads like Ed's. SO here are some of them:

 

[KelliH]

more screenshots

 

[KelliH]

Yeah I know I spent a lot of time on this post and I don't post much anywhere anymore, even on G E C K O F O R U M S d o t N E T because I have grown really tired of the egos and the hypocritical behavior of those that for whatever reason believe that they can gang up on people and run them out of business. This type of behavior happens here on Fauna all the time, and you know, I have tried to stick around here and participate the best I can, I have tried to be accepted again by Rich, I have donated money, I have tried to be positive, I have even still posted here even after finding out that my own website is filtered out, if you type it in here you get nothing, it's blank. When I finally got to meet Rich in Daytona this year I was shy but really happy and had hoped we could have a nice heart to heart talk. Instead, he completely ignored me for the 5 minutes we stood there in the empty hallway (me, Marcia, Rich and Connie). He wouldn't even look at me. Well, I'm tired of it and I am tired of the reptile business. I will most likely be selling out after the end of my season (I'm sure that will make my fellow leo breeders happy! ) because I have had it with hypocritical, egotistical people.

Maybe this should have been posted in hell! lol

 

[shrap]

About the quote by Ed you have up there Kelli....

Jay, Ken or Dennis locked his ad. Ed unlocked it, then changed the ad to say they were ch imports. Then Jay, Ken or Dennis ripped Ed for unlocking and editing the ad after it was locked by a Super Mod. Ed's original ad in no way indicated they were not genetic unlike JnJ's ads do.

That is the problem that I had with Ed's ad. The fact that new people could have very easily thought they were getting something genetic because Ed did not originally, in any way, indicate they were not genetic. Then he changed the ad to cover his ass. So call me a hypocrite if you want, I feel 100% justified in what I had to say about the situation.

 

[KelliH]

About the quote by Ed you have up there Kelli....

Jay, Ken or Dennis locked his ad. Ed unlocked it, then changed the ad to say they were ch imports. Then Jay, Ken or Dennis ripped Ed for unlocking and editing the ad after it was locked by a Super Mod. Ed's original ad in no way indicated they were not genetic unlike JnJ's ads do.

That is the problem that I had with Ed's ad. The fact that new people could have very easily thought they were getting something genetic because Ed did not originally, in any way, indicate they were not genetic. Then he changed the ad to cover his ass. So call me a hypocrite if you want, I feel 100% justified in what I had to say about the situation.

OK, well it is confusing because Seamus indicated that his screenshot was taken before any changes, see:

Apparantly at some point after *that*, Ed (?) unlocked the thread and there were a number of additional responses. Ed also edited the text of his original ad, making much of the conversation it had prompted seem drastically out of context. Luckily I saved a series of screenshots, suspecting it might dissapear or change if it got too heated.

 

[Wilomn]

Shrap is 100% on this one Kelli.

mr. clark stooped so low as to change his post that had been locked by Supermods to make himself look like less of a lying scamming stealing scumbag.

It didn't work.

 

[KelliH]

And in Ed's original ad (according to the screenshot) you can see it states that these are "RECENT CAPTIVE HATCHED IMPORTS THAT HAVE SHED AND ARE FEEDING".

 

[KelliH]

mr. clark stooped so low as to change his post that had been locked by Supermods to make himself look like less of a lying scamming stealing scumbag.

But what about Seamus's screenshot? And what about all the others that post ads here just like Ed's, with similar descriptive names?

 

[Wilomn]

I seem to recall mr. clark saying these were morphs when the ad first appeared. It is possible that I am misremembering but I don't think so.

So long as the disclaimer "looks like but not proven to be" or words to that effect appear in the ad I have no problem with it.

 

[KelliH]

Well, maybe I am just PMSing or something. Sorry.

 

[Clay Davenport]

I personally didn't have a big problem with Ed's ads UNTIL he referred to them as "minor morphs".
I don't care for the advertising technique used in pretty much all of the screen shots you posted, but it's commonplace and apparently accepted in the current marketplace with the dollar sign mentality.
However, once Ed used the term minor morphs, that gave me the impression of a deliberate attempt to mislead with the suggestion that they were genetically reproducible. That is not acceptable by any standards. Then to make matters worse, he apparently knew what he was doing because he felt the need to edit the ad in attempt to cover his ass.

Also, whether it's right or wrong, the fact is people will be more inclined to call someone like Ed out in the future just based on his past shady dealings and refusal to acknowledge the complaints of his customers. That's the price you pay for using scummy business practices, you become the object of closer scrutiny.

 

[shrap]

There were more than just that one ad that people had problems with.

And as Wes said, I dont care if people call them candy cane striped fruit loops as long as they are up front about their genetics. In many of Eds ads he never said "these are not genetic or need proven out" or anything along those lines. That is the only REAL problem I had with Ed's ads.

 

[hhmoore]

Kelli,
Thank you for moving this discussion.
Since you specifically referenced me, my comments in that ad, and my PM to you, though, I am going to take a moment to clarify things just a bit. My PM to you was after I had posted to take extraneous conversation to a more appropriate forum...you commented in the thread that you had a question, and asked it where you felt was appropriate. I chose to take my response to PM, rather than continue to disrupt a member's classified ad. My message to you was only partially quoted in your opening post here, so I will include the whole thing:

Kelli,
My issue was not so much with your question - even though J&J never called the snakes minor morphs - it was with the ongoing discussion of Ed Clark, who bought from him, when, etc. (J&J addressed your question, and as far as I was concerned that was the end of it.)

IMO, a person's classified ad is not the place for continued discussion/debate, or comparison to another seller. If you want to continue to discuss the descriptions used in BP advertising, or the hypocrisy within the community, you could do it in the BP forum or the General Business section. If you think it is something that reflects upon J&J, you could take the approach Seamus did & start a thread in the BOI.
H

Now, I am hesitant to respond further, because I have not yet read all of your posts, nor the responses, BUT I do agree that there seems to be some disparity in what is acceptable when describing animals. I am not a big fan of BPs, so I am not familiar with all of the morphs, descriptive terms, etc...but it seems to me that if it is acceptable for some to describe their animals in a certain way, then it should be acceptable for anybody (as long as the description is apt)

 

[Seamus Haley]

If the question was specifically one of why I didn't start a BOI thread about it... I didn't see it until I saw this. I did see the other one, a similarly inappropriate for the classifieds discussion was going on, the thread was locked... so I started a BOI thread after checking with the mods to see what they felt was the appropriate course for continuing the line of agressive questioning.

You found this one... if you feel it qualifies as a misleading ad, toss it on the BOI.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Ed Clark's original ads were not super clear that the animals resembled the morphs he mentioned.
J&J's ad does say "type" in the descriptions, although I personally think it should be more clear, it does STATE "type", "looks like" and such, instead of assuming that someone will know that C.H. will not be genetically proven morphs.
In short, IMHO(owning BPs myself) the J&J ads are clear enough for me to understand that the snakes described are NOT the morphs proven, but only resemble the morphs and therefor may or may not prove out as anything but normals, and should be bought as dinking projects, not as given genetic breeding material.
His ads are honest, and state what the animal looks like, not what he thinks it carries. He's honest about the snakes, and therefor, it passes to me.
All of course is just an opinion.

 

[varnyard]

I seem to recall mr. clark saying these were morphs when the ad first appeared. It is possible that I am misremembering but I don't think so.

So long as the disclaimer "looks like but not proven to be" or words to that effect appear in the ad I have no problem with it.

You bet ya Wes, the screen shot was taken after the first edit job by Ed. Then he unlocked the thread and edited it the second time.

Kelli, big difference between the two ads, J&J states they are not these morphs, just look a likes. Ed said his were morphs, minor morphs, Big Difference.

As for it being right to call them minor morphs, I don't care who says it is OK, it is 110% wrong. They are not proven morphs, and to call them such is nothing but a scam to steal cash from buyers that don't know any better.

It is just like the crap with the CBs, CBBs, CH, and WCs. CBs were captive bred at one point in time, they were CBBs, but now they can be from wild caught gravid adults, or eggs taken from the wild. It is nothing but a way to fool the buyer that don't know any better.

Also even in tegus, Colombian tegus were only called two things, Black tegus and Gold tegus. Now we have ads saying they are Black and white tegus, they were never Black and whites. It is a ploy to fool people into thinking they are the more expensive Argentines. There is nothing white about Colombian tegus, the true name is Colombian black tegu.

So why not call them what they are? I think J&J was right up honest on his ad, Ed was not, bottom line.

 

[varnyard]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106565

J&J: The long wait is over, the first gravids have come in, and they are sweet!
W.C gravid females full of eggs, and fat. Who knows what they will produced, a lot of people have gotten very lucky with these girls.
At the least you get the enjoyment of hatching eggs, and the thrill of not knowing what to expect.

Below are descriptions of these females,we are not calling them morphs, just what they look like.

Pics are posted as follows:

Female #1 Burgundy / het red axanthic type 2840 grams $450
Female #4 2697 grams very light/ axanthic type $325
Female #2 Broken stripe 2460 grams $325
Female #3 High gold 2561 grams $325

 

[deborahbroadus]

Yeah I know I spent a lot of time on this post and I don't post much anywhere anymore, even on G E C K O F O R U M S d o t N E T because I have grown really tired of the egos and the hypocritical behavior of those that for whatever reason believe that they can gang up on people and run them out of business. This type of behavior happens here on Fauna all the time, and you know, I have tried to stick around here and participate the best I can, I have tried to be accepted again by Rich, I have donated money, I have tried to be positive, I have even still posted here even after finding out that my own website is filtered out, if you type it in here you get nothing, it's blank. When I finally got to meet Rich in Daytona this year I was shy but really happy and had hoped we could have a nice heart to heart talk. Instead, he completely ignored me for the 5 minutes we stood there in the empty hallway (me, Marcia, Rich and Connie). He wouldn't even look at me. Well, I'm tired of it and I am tired of the reptile business. I will most likely be selling out after the end of my season (I'm sure that will make my fellow leo breeders happy! ) because I have had it with hypocritical, egotistical people.

Maybe this should have been posted in hell! lol

Kelli,

Don't feel bad. The reptile community is a small knit and "closed" community in some ways. The closed cliques sometimes aren't very welcoming of newcomers or forgiving of those that they feel aren't "conformed" enough..but this shouldn't bother you much..as new people come in new cliques are formed (I never was much of one for cliques...have always been a loner so it doesn't bother me).

The old cliques will be losing power because of their inability to welcome newcomers and are being seen as "outdated" by those coming in. Stick around and you will see that *I learned this in Business 101*.

I believe that the BOI does do a community service (abeit at a price) and it can sometimes get faster results than reporting the scammer to the BBB. I hope you will stay and please do not think that you would not be missed. (don't worry about paying for the privilege of staying here because as I see it, I pay and I will reap the benefits...maybe I won't make friends..but I will have my name known and I will be able to contribute to the improvements of the site...just by speaking up when I can.

 

[KelliH]

Can I be part of your clique? Thanks Deborah, I needed some encouragement. This time of year sucks for me and sometimes I get angry for silly reasons. Sorry everyone.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Can I be part of your clique? Thanks Deborah, I needed some encouragement. This time of year sucks for me and sometimes I get angry for silly reasons. Sorry everyone.

You are one of MY girls. I watch your posts; keep up the good work.