I am confused

[Willow]

Can we say a Woma & a HGW are like a Butter vrs Lesser?

We could say that....if a normal woma actually made a soul sucker when combined with a lesser, and not a queen bee look alike.

Butter and lessers still make an all white snake when combined together

normal woma crosses do not make the same animals as HGW crosses.

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

Maybe I can clear things up a bit. If you have seen enough of them it's incredibly easy to distinguish between the two. I saw a difference between the two when first laying eyes on them. If you know what to look for as far as ball python traits in general it's cake.

Normal woma: In general a spiderish look to it in color and some pattern but they can vary greatly...just like spiders can. Womas also have an elongated pattern that connects to back pattern. On the borders of the patterns along the sides they tend to have more of a yellowish hue instead of white...again it varies from animal to animal but in general it's night and day. Womas have darker eyes and more of a head pattern on most animals. Like spiders womas don't have any great amount of blushing in between the pattern on the sides or over the back. When they become adults womas tend to lighten a bit just as older spiders do. Womas also tend to have a monotone color/hue throughout the body and over the back.

Hidden gene woma:
Hidden gene womas tend to have an elongated pattern that is broken up in places and connects to the back pattern like normal womas but there are thicker areas in between the actual pattern and some really tweaked out patterned areas. The side patterns have bright white bordering them as compared to the normal womas that have more of a yellow border. Hidden gene womas have lighter eyes and some even have a steel color to them. As a rule they also are faded on the tops of their heads with no real pattern in the blushed out area. There is much more blushing coming up from the bellies and in between the pattern on hidden gene womas...very easy to spot this. The pattern on the dorasal area of hidden gene womas is pretty much always a bright yellow as babies/juvies and then dulls a bit as the animal ages but it's always brighter than the rest of the pattern color.

Here are some pics for comparison:

Normal woma pattern

Note the pattern is very close together and looks spiderish. No real blushing. There's head pattern. Yellow bordering the pattern on the sides. The overall color is the same on the animal as far as the pattern goes.

Hidden gene woma pattern

The pattern has much bigger gaps in between it and it looks nothing like a spider. No head pattern. Some nice bright blushing showing. Loads of bright white bordering the side pattern. The pattern is three different colors here with the dorsal being bright yellow.

So if you look back and forth at the two it's quite obvious what the differences are.

Here are some more pics and see if you can guess which is which.

1

2

3

4

5

 

[Ghi Reptiles]

Just to show what the hidden gene woma does with combos here's:

Normal woma yellow belly

Here's what a hidden gene woma yellow belly looks like

Enchi woma

Enchi hidden gene woma

Lesser woma

Lesser Hidden gene woma

I hope you like the comparisons!

 

[Diego Velarde]

Can we say a Woma & a HGW are like a Butter vrs Lesser? A Sugar vrs Calico? A Mystic vrs Phantom?
Can we say it is along those lines?
One that looks close but does something different when mixed with other morphs.
Thus making them a different morph with a name that confuses us..lol

Not a good example.
Womas and HGW are 2 completely different morphs. (The Hidden Gene part of it's name makes this discussion a whole lot harder. There are no Hidden genes) if Kevin had named it XXX there will be no discussion at all and people will be able to tell them apart as easily as Dave's comparison of a YB to a normal.

Butters and lessers have the same supers, they're both the same morph IMO just like a blonde pastel and a lemon pastel.
Sugar and Calico I believe are also the same just different names.
Mystic and Phantom - just like Butters and Lessers, you might get lighter/dark contrast one. When combined they make a super form.

Womas - As Willow said look like spiders minus the white sides.
HGWs - Golden color, crazy flames and blushing and it has a super form. One of the best morphs out there to make anything look better specially when mixed with the Blue eye lucy complex.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Matt, I was going to quote you, but on a Kindle Fire it is a little hard.
Your detailed explanation is perfect! I can now spot the differences perfectly. I won't ruin it for the OP, but thanks to your descriptors it is completely obvious!

 

[Rock Star Reptile]

Not a good example.
Womas and HGW are 2 completely different morphs. (The Hidden Gene part of it's name makes this discussion a whole lot harder. There are no Hidden genes) if Kevin had named it XXX there will be no discussion at all and people will be able to tell them apart as easily as Dave's comparison of a YB to a normal.

Butters and lessers have the same supers, they're both the same morph IMO just like a blonde pastel and a lemon pastel.
Sugar and Calico I believe are also the same just different names.
Mystic and Phantom - just like Butters and Lessers, you might get lighter/dark contrast one. When combined they make a super form.

Womas - As Willow said look like spiders minus the white sides.
HGWs - Golden color, crazy flames and blushing and it has a super form. One of the best morphs out there to make anything look better specially when mixed with the Blue eye lucy complex.

So would it be better to say it is more like a Mojave vrs lesser But wait they both still make a white snake.. But wait they still make different stuff when combined to different morphs.. Hmmm
Maybe I should say it is like a Lesser vrs Albino.. Because they are nothing alike.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Maybe I should say it is like a Lesser vrs Albino.. Because they are nothing alike.

While they are similar in appearance, they have completely different genetics. So I guess your comparison would be right. (Remember I am not a ball expert)

 

[Willow]

So would it be better to say it is more like a Mojave vrs lesser But wait they both still make a white snake.. But wait they still make different stuff when combined to different morphs.. Hmmm
Maybe I should say it is like a Lesser vrs Albino.. Because they are nothing alike.

Mojo and Lesser STILL make an all white blue eyed snake (just dirtier or darker, because of the mojave's darker overall genetics) They still connect with each other and make a super form, they still live in the same genetic family.

Womas and HGW's consist of entirely different genetic make up. Theyare NOT on the same genetic line what so ever. A normal woma does not make ANYTHING similar to a HGW. The crosses are no where near each other in looks.

and since albinos are recessive, thats a silly comparison

It would be more like comparing an ENCHI to a PASTEL.

 

[Rock Star Reptile]

Your kidding me.. Lesser & Mojave make a all white snake.. ya don't say..
But they are completely different. So your saying that a mojave and lesser are going to make the same morphs when combined with the same snakes??

Not that I am trying to go any further with this. because I know the difference but I just want to push it a bit more..

Wait, unless your going under the premiss "same but different" then I agree. If that makes sense...

 

[Willow]

Your kidding me.. Lesser & Mojave make a all white snake.. ya don't say..
But they are completely different. So your saying that a mojave and lesser are going to make the same morphs when combined with the same snakes??

Not that I am trying to go any further with this. because I know the difference but I just want to push it a bit more..

Wait, unless your going under the premiss "same but different" then I agree. If that makes sense...

Lol I didn't say they were the same, Mojo makes VERY different combos.

BUT they are still in the same genetic family as a lesser and butter, which is why they are compatible with them to make BEL's. Lesser and butters I believe are the same genetics, just different lines. Like all the different lines of pastels out there.

 

[Diego Velarde]

So would it be better to say it is more like a Mojave vrs lesser But wait they both still make a white snake.. But wait they still make different stuff when combined to different morphs.. Hmmm
Maybe I should say it is like a Lesser vrs Albino.. Because they are nothing alike.

Not at all.
Lessers and Mojos are part of the BlueL complex, as is russo, mocha, mystic, phantom, butters. They're all in the same family.
Another example is the YB complex, spark, specter, het highway.

The only thing a Woma and a HGW have in common is part of the name "woma" thats it. 2 different unrelated morphs like a fire and a desert.

 

[radera5]

Ted your comparisons are way off here lol.

Diego and Willow your explanations are spot on.

It should be very easy to tell the difference and personally I don't get why the name has so much influence confusing people. To me it almost seems as people read the name but don't actually think beyond that.

I have just trained myself to look at it like a Woma with a hidden gene that shows itself. In theory, Diego is correct...there is nothing hidden. BUT, considering the name is what it is, I just think about it this way.

It's true that they look similar, considering one is not all white, or black, or something like that. But to us Ball Python fanatics, it should not be hard to see the differences. Most of us know how subtle differences can be.

There are people that say a Super Mojave looks just like a Super Lesser, when in fact, most of us see the subtle difference in the head.

So again, I KNOW there is nothing hidden, I have just made my mind think of it as a similar looking snake to the Woma but with a hidden gene.

Let's face it, I think this is why Kevin named it this way. He saw two snakes back in the day that looked similar at the time, then realized one had something much different going on, hints just calling it the same thing as the other (Woma) but adding Hidden to the name of the special one. After learning more about BP's and genetics throughout the years, it has since become pretty obvious that while subtle, they do not really look alike. Same as my Super Mojo compared to Super Lesser comparison. After we have seen them more and more it's become pretty obvious for many that they don't look as much alike as thought in the beginning.

Hope this didn't confuse anyone and this is just my own personal way of thinking about things.

 

[Rock Star Reptile]

So your saying that a super HGW & a Super Woma still dont make the same pearls?
Going under "they are nothing alike".

Oh and for those who think I am just a moron.. your probably right.. Or maybe I like to debate a bit and pick this apart some..
Just for your & my amusement.

 

[Willow]

So your saying that a super HGW & a Super Woma still dont make the same pearls?
Going under "they are nothing alike".

Oh and for those who think I am just a moron.. your probably right.. Or maybe I like to debate a bit and pick this apart some..
Just for your & my amusement.

I don't think your a moron ~.^

Do you have proof that a normal woma to a normal woma will make a pearl? I know not to many people try to make them now a days...I don't think I have seen a situation were a normal woma was bred to another normal woma to make a pearl. I could be wrong tho.

 

[Willow]

I posted the question on Facebook about normal woma to normal woma making a Pearl...so far the responses are it is not possible. But breeding a HGW to a normal woma will make a Pearl like snake...NOW....if there are differences between the HGW X HGW Pearl and the HGW X normal woma Pearl...considering they never thrive...we cannot prove that it isn't simply an insane, similar looking COMBO, and not a super. This is a very likely situation, and would still have both morphs VERY separate from each other.

I would need to see a HGW X HGW Pearl Versus a HGW X Normal woma Pearl to give a better opinion on that.

 

[scratchypen]

If I remember correctly, Kevin in that wonderful BOI thread says that a Woma X Woma will indeed make a pearl, just like a HGW X HGW. I would have to look back through it to find the exact post, but, I seem to remember him saying that.

 

[Willow]

If I remember correctly, Kevin in that wonderful BOI thread says that a Woma X Woma will indeed make a pearl, just like a HGW X HGW. I would have to look back through it to find the exact post, but, I seem to remember him saying that.

I'd be more interested in someone elses findings...cuz a lot of people agree that Kevin's info can be a little messy and/or confusing...so getting the info from someone else who has breed just normal woma to normal woma would be better I believe...no possibility of messy info (or bias info...since it is HIS project lol)

Now if Kevin provided pics of that breeding...that would help, but without pics I can't just take someones word for it lol

 

[scratchypen]

Lol, I agree with your statement completely Willow, just had wanted to point that out since he is the only person I have heard that from. I know that Joes line HGW (or whatever it is) X Champagne makes fatal gene snakes and so does Kevins HGW X Champagne, so, I have to wonder how the other woma genes interact with such things? Ive read that spider X champagne can make a screwed up individual (didnt see anywhere it was fatal, but, that it was extremely 'out there'). With that being said, it would seem that all these pattern mutations that have wobble involved with it (super spotnose, spider, woma) could have the potential of making fatal snakes when mixed with incorrect genes, so, possibly, we dont hear about what comes about from woma X woma breeding because either maybe they die in the egg (as is the rumor with the 'super spider") or people dont think it important since the pearl is common knowledge to a certain degree? Just me going off on a what ifs, lol.

 

[Rock Star Reptile]

See now I have ya thinking..

 

[Joe at PHR]

Rick here is Kevin's founding animal off of his facebook page that was also in the other thread.

Here is the founding dam of my Hidden Gene Woma line freshly out of shed

Not here to prove anything to anybody but these are the true facts. Kevin himself posted this on his face book page. I am out for good as I don't care what you guys think

I am sure Kevin's founding animal has you all thinking especially the people who tried to deceive Ball BOutique and Post a Graite Enchi Hidden Gene Woma. I am done with this.