Info I guess it's time to move to the boi.Witblitz Dragons from South Africa

[DaveyFig]

Wow these posts are irrelevent. An injury is not the same. Anyway the issue here is the breeders statement that he never heard of anything wrong with any of his dragons.That was a lie.

It is exactly the same thing. If you asked the rabbit breeders if anyone had a problem with their rabbits, they would say no. It isn't a problem with the rabbits. It was a problem with A rabbit.

Until there is proof that the skin issue isn't an injury, then that is just as likely as a link to the morph.It could be any number of things. Jacques doesn't know of anyone that had a problem with his morph. He knows that someone had an animal that he produced and it had some issue that was not important enough to get it looked at.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Let me be clear here.... I have no involvement in this situation at all and am merely a 3rd party observer contributing my opinions (IMO the purpose of the BOI).

Josh is a big boy and there is no reason to bash him. Bash me,I am the one who had to continue the thread in the boi.

No one is bashing Josh at all, but a lot of us are wondering why you brought this thread to the BOI, considering it seems like you aren't involved in the situation.

He even killed one of his animals that might have had issues to get it tested.If he really was so certain his animals were so perfect why would he kill it?You don't have to kill an animal to take a skin biopsy.

He killed one of his animals showing some of the symptoms that were brought to his attention, which apparently he had been unaware of any concrete proof of concerns. Just my 2 cents, but it seems like he was being extra cautious to take this animal out of the breeding pool, to get a diagnosis not only as to the cause of the skin condition, but also a systemic pathology report to try to diagnose the source of the other alleged ailments. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the only necropsy done on one of these dragons?

His seeming contradictions aside, it seems like this is taking quite a drastic step to proving he is committed to the health and success of his new morph.

It isn't he said shesaid when there are photos and first hand accounts from the keeper

Yes, we all have acknowledged Josh's dragon as having a problem. We've seen the progression pictures and many have speculated as to the cause (none of which would imply a connection to the morph itself). The "he said/she said" part involves all these other various allegations of health issues that have yet to have been supported.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

this is the post that started the whole thing. I stand by it and there is in fact issues with the vigor in this morph that is an established fact. They grow slow,attain a small size and have issues with breeding.All the other stuff about Josh's animals is really not pertinent to my post. It really is a seperate issue.Jaques claimed he was completely unaware,that was a lie. What Josh's old emails do is validate my points nothing more.He never asked for compensation. And just because Josh knew the risk,and is a big boy doesn't make the fact that there were issues disappear.Just because he took a risk and lost the investment doesn't erase the fact that there were serious issues with these animals. It just erases his right to comppensation because he knew the risks involved.Josh never asked for anything. He is just telling it like it is.Take from it what you want.But I would want toknow Josh's experience with the witblits if I was thinking about forking over the cash. If after that i decide to buy and mine go to hell than I can't cry about it.But I can say my animals went to hell and here is what happened...

calling that an orange dragon is a bit of a stretch. If the red you claim to have is as red as this is orange then i doubt you are going to get color in these in anyones lifetime. If there are already "witsblitz" being produced from outcrossed hets like claimed then there should already be more color in them than there is. That is if ,in fact you can even breed color in them. Time will tell but with as many of this morph as are being produced there should already be animals with more varying color if it is possible. I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph.Maybe they are genetically weak and need to be crossed out more with other dragons and then crossed back to each other. I know with some of the mutations I personally originated in other herps I took the time to produce only hets for 2 years then bred only het to "unrelated" het to produce only 25% visuals it takes years longer but you don't have the issues if it is done the right way the first time. When you are the origin of a new morph it is your responsibility to ethically move forward and take the time to do it right. Something I feel isn't being done here. I know the motivation to make money is strong but by doing it right the result is more fruitfull. Sorry Jaques it just seems to me this is the case and everytime someone comes up with something new you jump on it with a coy "negativity" you very obviously see these other morphs as a threat because you are constantly bashing them while trying to promote your own product as independent and superior.You just do it in a very subtle way. The people you are selling to are doing more to strengthen your morph than you are. That is irresponsible,and i would think that with this being your project you would want to be the leader. Just my opinions and observations. But this is a classic example of why sometimes other people have better success with animals than the first person to produce them. it's clouded judgement.

My statements in this post were valid and accurate.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph

This is what we're asking.... In the BOI 3rd party info like this needs to be supported. Please provide names of other people, specific information regarding the vigor, etc.

When you are the origin of a new morph it is your responsibility to ethically move forward and take the time to do it right

Really? Ethically? I don't know about that...

 

[DaveyFig]

I have read the other thread.

If all of the witblits were white, and one was slightly orange, I would refer to that one as orange too, if nothing else so that I could talk about it and people would know which one I was talking about. Just like there are greenish snow cornsnakes and pink snow cornsnakes, there are variations in other phenotypes. The first "high yellow" leopard geckos I bought way back were not more yellow than the normals I had. They were less black. If there is a variation, one can describe it in such a way as to distinguish it. It wouldn't make much sense to always refer to the "orange one" as "the one that has a slight orange tent around the edges of the body and on the ridges"...in comparison to others, it is orange.

Jay, do you happen to know of larger more vigorous bearded dragons that came out of South Africa in 2008-2010? If you do, them maybe Jacques explanation for the small size can be shot down. Until then, it makes sense.

 

[Sushi Dragons]

He killed one of his animals showing some of the symptoms that were brought to his attention, which apparently he had been unaware of any concrete proof of concerns. Just my 2 cents, but it seems like he was being extra cautious to take this animal out of the breeding pool, to get a diagnosis not only as to the cause of the skin condition, but also a systemic pathology report to try to diagnose the source of the other alleged ailments. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the only necropsy done on one of these dragons?

His seeming contradictions aside, it seems like this is taking quite a drastic step to proving he is committed to the health and success of his new morph.

For argument's sake, we don't know that this actually happened. We have only seen pictures of Josh's affected dragon, not the one that Jacques claims to have euthanized.

The alleged pathology report on the culled dragon has yet to materialize. Jacques has explained that he no longer has the original report and cannot get another copy of the report because he also has no reference number.

I have no real reason to doubt that another witblits experienced a similar spotting as the one in Josh's collection, but I am surprised that there is no documentation of any kind in terms of pictures, paperwork, vet records, etc.

Jacques has said that he has the dragon in formalin and will be taking it to a zoo pathologist on Tuesday. I'm not sure what can be gained at this point. There is no way to know that the dragon that will be tested is in fact even a witblits. Maybe pictures of the preserved specimen would help.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

For argument's sake, we don't know that this actually happened. We have only seen pictures of Josh's affected dragon, not the one that Jacques claims to have euthanized.QUOTE]

Fair enough.

Jacques has said that he has the dragon in formalin and will be taking it to a zoo pathologist on Tuesday. I'm not sure what can be gained at this point. There is no way to know that the dragon that will be tested is in fact even a witblits. Maybe pictures of the preserved specimen would help.

While cultures could no longer be done on the preserved dragon, histopath most certainly could. But I agree, until we get tangible proof of results, and the dragon tested, we can't be sure of this claim either.

 

[Brandon Roesler]

calling that an orange dragon is a bit of a stretch.

opinion

If the red you claim to have is as red as this is orange then i doubt you are going to get color in these in anyones lifetime.

opinion

If there are already "witsblitz" being produced from outcrossed hets like claimed then there SHOULD already be more color in them than there is.

Hypothesis

That is if ,in fact you can even breed color in them. Time will tell but with as many of this morph as are being produced there SHOULD <~~ key word here... already be animals with more varying color IF it is possible.

hypothesis

I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph.

let them be heard here

Maybe they are genetically weak and need to be crossed out more with other dragons and then crossed back to each other.

Speculation and very well may have been done in the years between then and now. Best assumption, a hypothesis..

I know with some of the mutations I personally originated in OTHER HERPS<~~~ key words...I took the time to produce only hets for 2 years then bred only het to "unrelated" het to produce only 25% visuals it takes years longer but you don't have the issues if it is done the right way the first time.

IRRELEVANT, opinion is based on other HERPS as stated

When you are the origin of a new morph it is your responsibility to ethically move forward and take the time to do it right.

100% accurate

Something I feel isn't being done here.

another opinion and I could continue bit my point is clearly made.

I know the motivation to make money is strong but by doing it right the result is more fruitfull. Sorry Jaques it just seems to me this is the case and everytime someone comes up with something new you jump on it with a coy "negativity" you very obviously see these other morphs as a threat because you are constantly bashing them while trying to promote your own product as independent and superior.You just do it in a very subtle way. The people you are selling to are doing more to strengthen your morph than you are. That is irresponsible,and i would think that with this being your project you would want to be the leader. Just my opinions and observations. But this is a classic example of why sometimes other people have better success with animals than the first person to produce them. it's clouded judgement.

My statements in this post were valid and accurate.

Your "statements" were merely opinions regardless of validity and are only "accurate" in your eyes. Step back for a minute and come back to this table with a little more than speculation please.

 

[Brandon Roesler]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146268

Rules regarding 3rd party involvement.

 

[JimD]

So if it turns out that there are more people whom bought some of Jaques earlier Dragons that had issues eg they died, then what?
Jaques has sent out his letter that Im sure we are all awaiting to hear responses from.
I think a lot of people have missed the point in this thread. It is not about the dragons themselves (but there really has been a lot of talk about the poor quality) but about Jaques ethics and handling of known issues with them.
Im not going to say that I know for fact or that I heard that other Dragons have died. I can not because people will scream for proof. What I will say is that there are others that Im really hoping will post with their experiences with the Witblits. Hey if others happen to show up here and post that they had issues with them too maybe this thread isnt so wrong after all?

Jaques. Will you share the responses you get from all of your customers no matter good or bad?

 

[JimD]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146268

Rules regarding 3rd party involvement.

If someone is providing a link to a post or thread that is on another site, and the author there has no method of being identified as a real person (via personal name or business name), then would that constitute an anonymous third party quote?

Unless I am reading this wrong it is about posting a link from another site to use as proof. I think you need to go look a bit more for the correct ruling on third party "quotes".

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Let's call a spade a spade here, no one else has come to defend your POV either. this is mainly you Jay. Every now and then we see a post from the "infamous" Josh who technically should be the OP but for whatever reason isn't, otherwise, its mainly you. No evidence has been given (thus far) to even suspect witblits for the passing of the ONLY dragon PROVEN to have passed. This isn't a court of law but it, in most eyes, is close, where is the proof?? I'm not in agreement with Witblits here, I'm personally glad at this point that my wife talked me out of buying 2 last year, but where is the proof??? Where is the "beyond a shadow of a doubt" stuff NEEDED to plead any case??? Yes, his wording and some of his actions are questionable, but it takes a little more than that and you know it.

Let's do call a spade a spade. We know 2 of Josh's witblits died from an issue that none of his other dragons had.We know that the third one has been passed from highly experienced breeder to highly experienced breeder and it has failed to thrive or be able to breed and is now a worthless screwed up animal that has multpile issues that noone's non witblits have. We also have established that ghost morph's witblits has died. And since we are already on the topic why don't you sceptics email Alessandro (pogona vitticeps)and ask him how his first witblits is doing. If Jaques is honest he will state on the forum that animal died as well. That is 3 seperate people,all highly experienced breeders. Yes there is a risk, however if you are selling crap animals you are guilty of selling crap. And you can not get on here and say there are zero issues with witblits when 3 different people from different countries have had problems with them that they have not had with other dragons in their collection. Noone is asking for anything except honest representation of the witblits. And Jaques stating there are no issues he has ever heard of, is a flat out lie. He is very aware and has been for a long time. If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...it's a duck.

It's not compensation wanted it is a full disclosure of known issues.Also don't call me a liar and say there are no issues and that you have no idea what I am talking about when you have been told about the issues a long time ago. And to top it off you posted emails from back then proving that you were told about the issues so your own evidence you used proved that you were lying when you said there were no known issues.

Third part quotes? I am quoting threads on the same forum with links,they are public knowledge and easy to read by looking at the discussion formum.That is in no way heresay. the letter i posted was emailed to me.

 

[DaveyFig]

So if it turns out that there are more people whom bought some of Jaques earlier Dragons that had issues eg they died, then what?

Well, if they decide to post here, they will likely be asked for proof like everyone else.

Jaques has sent out his letter that Im sure we are all awaiting to hear responses from.

I know I am! However, finding out about issues after he sent out a survey does not make him a liar. I know a lot of things now that I did not know 2 years ago, and will know even more tomorrow. He has not said there are no issues with the morph, just that he didn't know about them.

I think a lot of people have missed the point in this thread. It is not about the dragons themselves (but there really has been a lot of talk about the poor quality) but about Jaques ethics and handling of known issues with them.

Again, these "known issues" are from unknown causes. Nobody has presented anything that ties them to the morph.

Im not going to say that I know for fact or that I heard that other Dragons have died. I can not because people will scream for proof. What I will say is that there are others that Im really hoping will post with their experiences with the Witblits. Hey if others happen to show up here and post that they had issues with them too maybe this thread isnt so wrong after all?

Nobody will "scream for proof". Historically, many ask for proof, and then those that are asked for proof are the ones screaming. If others show up here and post about issues that Jacques was not aware of until they are posted here, then it does nothing to prove that he is an unethical liar as is the intended purpose of this "info thread".

Jaques. Will you share the responses you get from all of your customers no matter good or bad?

Have you surveyed others?

Let's do call a spade a spade. We know 2 of Josh's witblits died from an issue that none of his other dragons had.

That part is pretty clear.

We know that the third one has been passed from highly experienced breeder to highly experienced breeder and it has failed to thrive or be able to breed and is now a worthless screwed up animal that has multpile issues that noone's non witblits have.

If this animal is still alive, what steps are being taken to diagnose the "issues"?

We also have established that ghost morph's witblits has died. And since we are already on the topic why don't you sceptics email Alessandro (pogona vitticeps)and ask him how his first witblits is doing.

If they post here we don't have to investigate the accusations you have made.

If Jaques is honest he will state on the forum that animal died as well. That is 3 seperate people,all highly experienced breeders. Yes there is a risk, however if you are selling crap animals you are guilty of selling crap.

And if your animals are thriving, and you are not informed of the "crap" with any kind of evidence that it is crappy because of you, how do you respond?

And you can not get on here and say there are zero issues with witblits when 3 different people from different countries have had problems with them that they have not had with other dragons in their collection. Noone is asking for anything except honest representation of the witblits. And Jaques stating there are no issues he has ever heard of, is a flat out lie. He is very aware and has been for a long time. If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck and looks like a duck...it's a duck.

So there is nothing that Jacques can do now? Because people bought animals from him and they have issues (that could be linked to his morph, but nobody has taken the initiative to prove), he is a liar? He said he knew about the issues. He also said he doesn't know what caused them. He now has hear of other issues. He still doesn't know what caused them. He said Josh got animals before outcrossing, and josh knew that two. He also started outcrossing once the morph was proven.

It's not compensation wanted it is a full disclosure of known issues.Also don't call me a liar and say there are no issues and that you have no idea what I am talking about when you have been told about the issues a long time ago. And to top it off you posted emails from back then proving that you were told about the issues so your own evidence you used proved that you were lying when you said there were no known issues.

Again, being told of issues without being told the cause doesn't make Jacques a liar. If everything else was ruled out, and all that was left was the fact that the animals were witblits, then I would have to agree that the morph has issues. Has cancer been ruled out? Has burns been ruled out? Bacteria? Virus? Jacques has even mentioned that it could be something that international dragons have been exposed to that his dragons have not built up an immunity to. Has that been ruled out?

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Dave...... AMEN

I honestly think the productive portion of this thread is finished until adequate responses to your questions are provided.

And 3rd party quotes are always prohibited without providing full names (just like rules for posting). The link simply explains that it extends to links to other pages/forums as well.

 

[JimD]

Jay had stated that "others" had issues with their Witblits too. He also named two of them so where is the third party quotes?

 

[alessandro]

hy everybody,
i am alessandro from italy. some of you may know me because i was so lucky to produce leatherback and silkback few years ago, i just say so to explain that i have made few experiences. let start saying that i apologize for my english...i am doing my best
i want to reply to this post because i am one of the person who bought the witblits from jacques. the first point to say is that i am not happy with them. one of them is died and the other is still alive but she is not healthy. here is a quick story.
i purchased a male and a female. when they arrived they were full of parasite and it was very difficult to set them clear. they were real poor feeder and it took more than two months only to bring them feeding daily. they have grown very slow. but with big effort we arrived to the point that the male was a breedable size. we decided that was ready for the hibernation. so put in the same way we put down my other dragon. after a while we bringed back to the normal set up. i have conditioned 3 females with different genetic ready for him. and we were lucky enaugh that the male made 1 breeding attempt with each female. after that it seems that the stress from the breeding was making him sick. we have stopped the attempt and we have started to see several different problems: it started to have problems with his back legs then he was having respiratory problems then he stiopped feeding....the animal was going down and down and down. i was unable to get him recovery and i have tried everything i can. at the end he is died
the female: the female was growing so slowly that i was unable to put in hibernation. so i keep it in the hot room since this year. this winter was finally reaching a good weight so i decided to put her in hibernation. now she is out but she is not healthy and look like she is going to have the same issues. hope not!!!

last of all i have made several het and now i am working with them. they look reallyt strong and i beleive this will be the best way to make this morph available. i ahve choosen 3 female with a big genetic distance totally unrelated. i will workj with them and i will try to make the witrblits healthy enaugh to be offered to everybody.

of course i am here to clarify the situation so i will be happy to answer to any question
best wishes
alessandro aka alemoz

 

[Lucille]

Alessandro, did you let Jacques know when your critters were not doing well? If so, what did he say?

 

[DaveyFig]

Jim, I think Nathan's references to third party quotes are about things like this:

I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph.

The statement was made on the other thread, outside of the BOI. Third party quotes may be aloud there, but he copied and pasted it here on the BOI.

We know of the three people that have had problems of unknown causes with their bearded dragons that came from Jacques. Who are the "alot of folks" that are saying there are "serious issues with vigor"? Not using quotation marks does not relieve the user of having to supply names.

 

[alessandro]

at first i tried but it was seeming that was only my problem. so i was assuming i wasn't lucky and i get the bad animals. also i haven't found a person ready to listen but a person who was assuming i was doing something wrong. so i stopped discussing with him. i realized i was discussing alone. even now i have replied to him mail but then i received back an aggressive mail back.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Alessandro, sorry to hear of your misfortune. Thanks for joining the discussion. It helps to have another first hand account of the problems seen with these dragons. From what you describe, it simply sounds like "failure to thrive" probably brought out by extensive inbreeding used to create the morph, rather than the morph itself. Have any of your hets produced yet? With an outcross you should see increased vitality in those offspring, unless it truly is something linked to the mutation causing the new morph.