Info I guess it's time to move to the boi.Witblitz Dragons from South Africa

[AggielandReptiles]

Also, did you purchase your dragons from the same initial stock that Josh did?

 

[DaveyFig]

This is the first mention of parasites (which would lead to slow growth and "issues with vigor). Parasites are not morphs specific though. Perhaps a combination of things (some could be morph related) contributed to the death of that male.

I would think that if one person got animals with parasites, everyone would have them. Wouldn't a fecal examination be one of the first things done to see why an animal isn't thriving? Were they done and not shared because it places doubt on the "morph issues" theory? Were they simply not done? I am not excusing the parasites (if they exist). If Jacques sent animals with parasites, then they were not healthy as stated. They don't have anything to do with witblits genetics though.

 

[alessandro]

het look really strong. growing normally and acting normally. at the moment we have done some breeding with het and the babies are just born they look healthy but we will keep them in "quarantine" for a while.
regarding the parasite. the fecal analysis was the first thing done. and there were a lot!!! and difficult to get rid of them
i am sure the morph will be ok soon. probably still not stable and it is necessary time to outcross and make them more strong. maybe the first from jacques should be sold one year later, after some more effort was done to make them strong.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

This is the first mention of parasites (which would lead to slow growth and "issues with vigor). Parasites are not morphs specific though. Perhaps a combination of things (some could be morph related) contributed to the death of that male.

I would think that if one person got animals with parasites, everyone would have them. Wouldn't a fecal examination be one of the first things done to see why an animal isn't thriving? Were they done and not shared because it places doubt on the "morph issues" theory? Were they simply not done? I am not excusing the parasites (if they exist). If Jacques sent animals with parasites, then they were not healthy as stated. They don't have anything to do with witblits genetics though.

You are right Dave it may not be morph specific but we don't know because noone in their right mind would buy normal dragons from S.A. and pay the expense to export them.They would only do it for a new morph. So it is entirely possible that all of Jaques Odells animals are of poor quality but since noone has experience with anything but his witblits that is all we can judge him on. Would it make you feel better is we just refered to Jaques Odells animals as bad quality in general and didn't single out witblits? I mean seriously here is another highly regarded keeper of Bearded Dragons who had the same issues. At what point will Jaques start to accept some personal responsibility. Clearly it has been shown that there are documented issues with his dragons.You guys keep specultating the reasons for the death of the dragons but no matter what reason you attribute to their death the end result is the same.Dead in less thatn 2 years or worthless animals soon to die. Who cares if it's cancer,resperatory,parasitic all issues and all unacceptable. What would it change if I strted this information thread and titled is,Jaques odells witblits are loaded with parasites? It's all bad breedng ethic or bad husbandry or bad busines or bad customer service.None of it is good.Not one thing. And still noone has come forward to post anything positive about witblits dragons.However customers and breeders are coming forward and validating the fact that these animals have problems. you can't argue that fact. What it is everyone elses fault but Jaques? He is the victim? Not the people who have lost thousands of dollars on his animals,that he claimed had no issues? Since we are specifically talking about witblits and their specific problems and the fact that other animals don't have these same issues than it is safe to say it is an issue associated with this morph. No that many people have bought these animals and at this point for people who have been able to have them for a year,there are more negative experiences than positive. Def. not the 10% Jaques was claiming.

 

[DaveyFig]

So, how many generations of out-crossing will Alessandro have to do in order to be able to sell witblits and recover his investment and still be considered ethical?

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

So, how many generations of out-crossing will Alessandro have to do in order to be able to sell witblits and recover his investment and still be considered ethical?

Well how about this Dave. How about you either breed out the issue so it no longer exists or you tell your customers up front about all the different POTENTIAL problems that are known to be associated with the animals. Either way is ethical in my eyes.Jaques by the way did neither of these two things.In fact he was given an opportunity to come clean and he denied the issues exist. Then He lied about knowing about the issues. This is my problem with the whole thing.

Had he given a full disclosure about the animals after he was made aware of the issues we wouldn't be discussing it now. I am not faulting Jaques odell for selling the original animals. I am faulting him for selling them after he was made aware of the potential issues.If he was going to continue selling the animals after being made aware he should have disclosed the known potential issues. That is really what everyone is upset about.He didn't disclose the known possible issues and whe he was called out on the issues that are verified ,he lied and denied they ever existed.

 

[DaveyFig]

I don't know if he has even sold any since issues were brought up, so I certainly don't know if he told customers about any issues.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Jay, this is getting to the point of absurdity... I'm sorry, but seriously. What is your involvement in this issue? Your posts reek with personal affront.

It seems that the people involved aren't nearly as upset about this as you. Josh is upset he lost his dragon, Alessandro is disappointed that his dragons came with parasites and seemed weaker than expected, but now is getting success with his outcross hets. Both of these people who have personally been "wronged" as you so allege are dealing with this in a mature, professional, business oriented way.

You on the other hand seem to have a personal vendetta against Jacques. The thing I don't understand is WHY you are putting forth all this effort when you haven't "lost" anything. Not a dime, not a dragon, not your reputation, nothing.

Jacques probably shouldn't have sold his dragons as early as he did. Even he admits this. However, if everyone told every buyer all the POTENTIAL and UNSUBSTANTIATED problems with their animals, this business would no longer exist. There is still no proof this is a morph issue, although its starting to seem like inbreeding and decreased vitality could be a factor. I mean seriously man, have you never had a customer try to tell you that an animal they bought from you died long after you sold it to them and try to blame you somehow? Without proof there isn't any reason IMO for Jacques to jump to notifying every customer of these "potential" problems, when there is honestly no evidence that they are anything morph related.

Regardless of what should have happened, that's all in the past. Jacques has the ball in his court now, lets see what he does. Now that he knows WITHOUT A DOUBT that there have been some "issues" with his dragons, he has sent a survey to all his customers to try to get more information. Also claims to have taken a dragon with similar lesions to Josh's to a patholgist. Let's see what he does with this information, and see what we find out. So far it seems like he's taking all the responsible and ethical steps to rectify this situation.

 

[JimD]

Nathan.
Did read what Alessondro posted? The way that Jaques treated him when he brought up the issues? You think THATS ok? I really must be missing something in this thread.

 

[JimD]

at first i tried but it was seeming that was only my problem. so i was assuming i wasn't lucky and i get the bad animals. also i haven't found a person ready to listen but a person who was assuming i was doing something wrong. so i stopped discussing with him. i realized i was discussing alone. even now i have replied to him mail but then i received back an aggressive mail back.

Is this in regards to the letter he just sent out to his customers?

 

[DaveyFig]

Proof of an aggressive email should be a lot easier than a vet report for animals that weren't seen by vets.

 

[JimD]

Proof of an aggressive email should be a lot easier than a vet report for animals that weren't seen by vets.

Who exactly were you referring to here Dave about the Vet reports?

I am also curious as to why Jaques can not find or be able to get the reports for the lab results?
My Vet has all documents for the 10 years that we have been seeing her.
If I had someone tell me about a possible issue with an animal that I produced I can assure you that any lab results that I received would be kept safe. That way if I ever needed to show proof that my animals were completely healthy I could show my results.

Again maybe its just me but things dont really add up.

 

[DaveyFig]

Alessandro felt that Jacques was aggressive in his email. Considering that neither one of them speaks English as their first language, I could see how something could be misread. It very well could have been aggressive. I have not seen the email though. You must have though, because you commented on it freely. It would be very simple to post the email so we can see though.

We have asked for proof of ill dragons in the form of vet reports. It seems that those that died were not necropsied, and those still living have not visited a vet. Therefor, that proof is more difficult to provide. As I see it, there is no proof of anything other than some pictures. Jacques is the accused. Is it not the responsibility of the accuser to provide evidence that he is guilty?
Jacques lost proof of his animals being healthy (if he had it). So what? He isn't accusing anyone of anything. It seems that those that are saying the animals are crap don't have anything to back that up. $5,000 animals dying left and right from all sorts of complications, conditions and issues, and NO vet reports? I keep vet reports too...when I have them. One has to have animals seen to have those reports to prove anything though.

 

[JimD]

regarding the parasite. the fecal analysis was the first thing done. and there were a lot!!! and difficult to get rid of them
.

Jaques- I don't have a pathology report, but you claim to have done it to one of your witblits with spots. Convienent for you that you claim the dragon is clean, but have no proof.

Josh

Why dont you ask people direct questions? Why not ask Alessandro if he has a copy of a report or ask him if he did the fecal himself? You could ask him what he does for a living. A lot of breeders who have large collections have bought microscopes and learnt how to do it themselves.
Josh says he does not have a pathology report Jacques says he did but lost it. If he did in fact get the testing done he can get a copy from the lab that did the test. He can go through his Vet if the Lab will not deal with him direct. They do not get rid of paper trails. It can be found if someone wants it to be found.

And for the record. I did not see or hear anything about the email that Allessandro received. I was asking if it had to do with the letter that Jacques put out.

 

[DaveyFig]

I am not asking directly because I would love to see proof from ANYONE!
Someone please show me what is wrong with the lizards? (I don't mean symptoms...I mean the cause)
Someone show me that Jacques knew he was selling animals that were "crap"

Prove something, anything. Just show something!

When a mod says something to the effect of "knock this type of talk off, or move it to the BOI" he is not saying it has to go to the BOI, and it shouldn't have been brought here without evidence of wrong doing "info thread" or not. It should have been stopped until there was something solid.

Anyone could come here and say that the bearded dragons were shipped in ziploc bags of purple koolaid, grew 14 inches in the first three days, began speaking thai in the forth month, and pooped hotwheels cars for the next year until they died. Saying it doesn't make it so. I am not calling the people with issues liars, but I am also not going to accuse someone of wrongdoing without SOMETHING concrete.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Jay, this is getting to the point of absurdity... I'm sorry, but seriously. What is your involvement in this issue? Your posts reek with personal affront.

It seems that the people involved aren't nearly as upset about this as you. Josh is upset he lost his dragon, Alessandro is disappointed that his dragons came with parasites and seemed weaker than expected, but now is getting success with his outcross hets. Both of these people who have personally been "wronged" as you so allege are dealing with this in a mature, professional, business oriented way.

You on the other hand seem to have a personal vendetta against Jacques. The thing I don't understand is WHY you are putting forth all this effort when you haven't "lost" anything. Not a dime, not a dragon, not your reputation, nothing.

Jacques probably shouldn't have sold his dragons as early as he did. Even he admits this. However, if everyone told every buyer all the POTENTIAL and UNSUBSTANTIATED problems with their animals, this business would no longer exist. There is still no proof this is a morph issue, although its starting to seem like inbreeding and decreased vitality could be a factor. I mean seriously man, have you never had a customer try to tell you that an animal they bought from you died long after you sold it to them and try to blame you somehow? Without proof there isn't any reason IMO for Jacques to jump to notifying every customer of these "potential" problems, when there is honestly no evidence that they are anything morph related.

Regardless of what should have happened, that's all in the past. Jacques has the ball in his court now, lets see what he does. Now that he knows WITHOUT A DOUBT that there have been some "issues" with his dragons, he has sent a survey to all his customers to try to get more information. Also claims to have taken a dragon with similar lesions to Josh's to a patholgist. Let's see what he does with this information, and see what we find out. So far it seems like he's taking all the responsible and ethical steps to rectify this situation.

Yeah i guess I take it personally when someone calls me a liar. What is your issue?What is your involvement?Why do you feel you have the right to voice your opinion and not me?

It has been PROVEN that Jaques has sold many animals after he was aware of the issues.Also Josh didn't lose 1 dragon he lost more than that. Read this sentence you wrote...

"There is still no proof this is a morph issue, although its starting to seem like inbreeding and decreased vitality could be a factor"

your kidding right?How is this not directly and specifically an issue related to this morph? You either have trouble absorbing information or you are skipping posts. Your facts are not accurate. And as far as my personal vendetta? Yeah I guess it is.And If I saw a person on the street getting ripped off I would make that my business too.

Jaques Odells mistake with me was when he lost his composure and said I didn't know what I was talking about. His over the top reactions and talking to me like I am an idiot. I knew exactly what I was talking about and he knew it,now everybody else does too. The lies are out in the open and that is all I wanted.

And if you think it is acceptable in this business to practice deciet(please look up definition) Than I will be glad to never do business with you. In fact it is not ok. What is ok is to represent honestly and not deceive customers. That my friend is fraud.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Dave,

For the last time.Jaques speaks perfect english. They do not speak Japanese in South Africa.There is no language barrier

The whole point of all of this was not to prove fault of anything.It was to show that there are verified issues with this morph.That has been done. Jaques has been caught in multiple lies. His credebility is shot. It really doesn't matter because there is no need for his animals to be exported out of south africa anymore.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Nathan you said this...

"Jacques probably shouldn't have sold his dragons as early as he did. Even he admits this. However, if everyone told every buyer all the POTENTIAL and UNSUBSTANTIATED problems with their animals, this business would no longer exist."

This statement is terrible logic. Besides I would think these issues are substantiated at this point. Then you said this..

" I mean seriously man, have you never had a customer try to tell you that an animal they bought from you died long after you sold it to them and try to blame you somehow?"

NO and I have been doing this a very long time. And we are not talking about one customer.We are talking about multiple customers, from different countries all with the same animals from Jaques. It cannot be dismissed as coincidence.

 

[DaveyFig]

Dave,

For the last time.Jaques speaks perfect english. They do not speak Japanese in South Africa.There is no language barrier

The whole point of all of this was not to prove fault of anything.It was to show that there are verified issues with this morph.That has been done. Jaques has been caught in multiple lies. His credebility is shot. It really doesn't matter because there is no need for his animals to be exported out of south africa anymore.

Jacques may speak perfect English, but I could have sworn I read that it wasn't his first language. People speak English all over the world, that doesn't mean that it is their first language. I bet some people do speak Japanese in South Africa too! Regardless, Alessandro's first language is not English either. Perhaps hostility was detected, but was not intended.

I thought the whole point of the thread was to let everyone know of Jacques unethical behavior, not to point out flaws in the morph.

 

[DaveyFig]

I think a lot of people have missed the point in this thread. It is not about the dragons themselves (but there really has been a lot of talk about the poor quality) but about Jaques ethics and handling of known issues with them.

Sorry Jay, It was Jim that said it wasn't about the morph, not you. My apologies.