DaveyFig
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Info I guess it's time to move to the boi.Witblitz Dragons from South Africa
- Thread starter Jay Sommers Reptiles
- Start date
Just to show I didn't imagine it!
AggielandReptiles
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Bingo. Finally makes sense.
DaveyFig
New member
Nathan, now reread post #2 of the thread with your new understanding!
I didn't really get the point of the thread after the initial post.
I didn't really get the point of the thread after the initial post.
Jay Sommers Reptiles
Active member
Good now you guys get it. And the next time someone calls you a liar and tells you that you have no idea what you are talking while taunting you and talking down to you I expect you will just sit there and take it. So now that you think you have gotten to the heart of the matter what are your reasons for coming to the defense of someone who has poor quality animals(for whatever reason) has lied about it over and over again so that he could continue to make thousands and thousands off of his animals after being notified that more people who have gotten his animals have had problems with them ,than have not? All of the issues seems to present themselves after the animals have almost reached maturity sojust because someones young animals haven't had problems yet doesn't mean they won't.
And Dave what's your point about English being the first language? So what. He lives in South Africa and speaks perfect English. Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know the meaning of T.O.S. That's the thing out of all of this that you are holding on to to continue an argument?
Anyway unless Jaques directs comments or questions to me I won't post here again.The truth is out.He can't lie about it or hide the issues anymore.I just hope the word get's around internationally(i know it already has,before this all started) so that more people don't waste $5000.00 on a bearded dragon that lives for 9 months and then goes to hell. I am just saying in public what has been being said for over a year in private. Jaques has been aware of the issues with his animals,for over a year and he decided to ignore them,hide them and lie about his knowledge of them. It was time someone called him out on it publicly so that future customers were not going blindly into an investment of substantial monitary expense. Yes as Jaques stated risk does equal reward. Bu that only count's if you are aware of the risks! Not just the normal risks associated with dealing in live animals and morphs. I am not talking about Josh either because he bought the animals before anyone knew there were issues.I am talking about everyone who was sold animals after Jaques was made aware. I am sure if you guys dumped $10000.00 dollars on 2 bearded dragons and payed the costs to export them and later found out that the breeder sold you the animals knowing there had been issues and witheld that info you would just take it in stride right? I am sure you would. Just part of the game right? Especially if they died. If he were in the U.S. and his customers were in the U.S. he could easily and successfully be sued for fraud. I mean he said he was going to sue me for slander? For telling the truth.
And Dave what's your point about English being the first language? So what. He lives in South Africa and speaks perfect English. Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know the meaning of T.O.S. That's the thing out of all of this that you are holding on to to continue an argument?
Anyway unless Jaques directs comments or questions to me I won't post here again.The truth is out.He can't lie about it or hide the issues anymore.I just hope the word get's around internationally(i know it already has,before this all started) so that more people don't waste $5000.00 on a bearded dragon that lives for 9 months and then goes to hell. I am just saying in public what has been being said for over a year in private. Jaques has been aware of the issues with his animals,for over a year and he decided to ignore them,hide them and lie about his knowledge of them. It was time someone called him out on it publicly so that future customers were not going blindly into an investment of substantial monitary expense. Yes as Jaques stated risk does equal reward. Bu that only count's if you are aware of the risks! Not just the normal risks associated with dealing in live animals and morphs. I am not talking about Josh either because he bought the animals before anyone knew there were issues.I am talking about everyone who was sold animals after Jaques was made aware. I am sure if you guys dumped $10000.00 dollars on 2 bearded dragons and payed the costs to export them and later found out that the breeder sold you the animals knowing there had been issues and witheld that info you would just take it in stride right? I am sure you would. Just part of the game right? Especially if they died. If he were in the U.S. and his customers were in the U.S. he could easily and successfully be sued for fraud. I mean he said he was going to sue me for slander? For telling the truth.
DaveyFig
New member
Jay, I only brought up the language thing because Jim thought that the aggressive email to Alessandro was a big deal. Maybe it is. We haven't seen the email, so it could have been something that was misunderstood. If the email is posted then we can see. That might make me think differently about Jacques. Again, nothing else has been proven, and something should.
I don't think hurt feelings from taunting would motivate me to start a BOI thread without proof of my accusations.
I don't think hurt feelings from taunting would motivate me to start a BOI thread without proof of my accusations.
AggielandReptiles
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A little hypocritical considering some of your posts on here....
And I understand you're upset, but not sure it warrants a BOI over hurt feelings.
I agree. Now that all the anecdotal reports of "many others" with problems are permanently on the BOI, as well as 2 first-hand accounts of generic health problems in a few of his dragons are listed here as well the proof is in the pudding. Lets see how he handles the situation post-survey results, post-pathology results, etc and if/how he changes his TOS/health guarantee/client communication.
If only life worked that way....
Made aware of what? That a few of his dragons died without a vet visit or necropsy? What exactly would he say to other buyers?
"Just wanted to let you know that a few of my early dragons have died from mysterious causes. Not a single one was diagnosed with anything, seen by a vet, had a necropsy performed, and I don't have any pathology reports (besides the one I did myself and claim was normal), but I just wanted to let you all know this MUST be morph related, as no other dragon as ever died from internal parasites or failure to thrive. Oh, and by the way, I've been working hard to outcross my animals and have had success in increasing the hardiness of the morph, as well as some other breeders who have purchased my original stock."
You didn't dump $10K.... and have admitted you're simply upset because Jacques was mean to you.
I have spent thousands on an import animal before, actually. And you better BELIEVE I did my homework. I found numerous breeders here in the states that had imported from this person before, and asked a laundry list of questions about the quality of their animals, husbandry practices, communication, reputation, etc before I even dreamed of sending that kind of money. Its called due diligence, and here in the US that is the buyer's responsibility.
No, no, no. I mean, someone could try. There's always an attorney willing to take that case. But they would never win, EVER. There is simply no hint of proof that there is fraud. At worst Jacques is guilty of a lack of communication and customer service.
Actually, libel. And some of your posts on here push the limits a little of being "defamatory" and "malicious in intent". Slander is spoken defamation, whereas libel is written.
And just to set the record straight.... You brought this to the BOI. The "Board of Inquiry". The only reason why there are people "uninvolved" (ie me, Dave, others) posting is thats the purpose of this forum. To serve as a evaluation board of the complaints, requests, statements, and evaluations of the OP. So don't get upset because some of us don't agree with what you have to say, and feel that more proof is warranted before you levy these accusations against someone.
DaveyFig
New member
These two statements are very telling. Why (if you knew about the "issues" for so long) did you wait until the same week that someone outside of S.A. produced witblits hets. to drop this bombshell? Impeccable timing!
Jay Sommers Reptiles
Active member
I had no idea about the witblits hatching this all started way before that happened. I had no idea about the eggs and the witblits hadn't hatched.It actually is just a coincidence and nothing more.
And Nate, I am not he one who called it slander(i know the difference between speaking and writing) that was Jaques. Also you don't need a lawyer to sue and furthermore in small claims court you don't need to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. Only a preponderance of evidence.And in a lot of states $5000.00 is the legal limit for small claims. I think it would actually be quite easy. And in the U.S. if you are aware of potential issues with any product and you continue to sell that product without divulging the info it is absolutely fraud. It wasn't a few animals with problems it was most of them.
My part of this back and forth debate is over.get back to the subject of the thread
Bye guys.
And Nate, I am not he one who called it slander(i know the difference between speaking and writing) that was Jaques. Also you don't need a lawyer to sue and furthermore in small claims court you don't need to prove things beyond a reasonable doubt. Only a preponderance of evidence.And in a lot of states $5000.00 is the legal limit for small claims. I think it would actually be quite easy. And in the U.S. if you are aware of potential issues with any product and you continue to sell that product without divulging the info it is absolutely fraud. It wasn't a few animals with problems it was most of them.
My part of this back and forth debate is over.get back to the subject of the thread
Bye guys.
Jay Sommers Reptiles
Active member
Oh yes one more thing you two are correct I started this whole thing because I got my feelings hurt by someone being mean to me. Actually it was because i was called a liar. And Nate do actually have your import/export license? I do and I have been importing and exporting herps for a very long time. In this industry the quality of your animals is your reputation and pretty much the biggest thing someone is judged on,especially in international dealings. My reputation for my animals and their quality is stellar internationally,as is my way of doing business. It has to be or i would not be able to exist, especially since I am the only source in the world for alot of what I sell. And i am not a bearded dragon breeder so i have no motive to expose Jaques lies except to expose Jaques lies.My motives are pure he is no competition for me or anyone I know.
AggielandReptiles
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05-29-2012, 08:31 AM #84 btmexotics
05-29-2012, 12:28 PM #88 btmexotics
A man's word is his most valuable asset.
Since once again, you seem to fail to understand what constitutes fraud legally, let me try to explain. There are 5 criteria necessary, even in small claims court (might want to check your limits in the states you're considering - Missouri where you reside is a max of $3000).
1. The false or fradulent statement or misrepresentation must relate to material fact.
In this instance, we don't have any facts (no one has anything more than speculation, despite your opinion).
2. The defendent must know that his statement or representation is untrue.
Again, in this case it can't be proven that Jacques knew anything besides potentially that some of his dragons had died.
3. Intent to deceive.
Once again, in addition to being hard to prove, Jacques is at most guilty of non-disclosure. No evidence has been presented to assume malice or purposeful deception.
4. The victim must have reasonable reliance on the false information.
This is the only point where the case would have any ground. Ie, the buyer's purchased the animals under the assumption they would reproduce, etc. But without 1-3 there it simply isn't fraud.
5. The false statement or misrepresentation must leave the victim with LEGAL injury.
He bought an animal (personal property) that after a reasonable period developed health issues and died. Would be really hard to claim property damages, etc, which would be the only way to consider this legal injury.
Also important to note that in the US animals are considered personal property. That means that the only compensation allowed to be awarded in civil cases is the "real" value of the animal, and not punitive damages. Unfortunately many precedents have been set that demonstrate that the "real" value of the animal is often far below what you might consider "market" value, and is almost never what is actually paid. Also, no "potential" value can be recovered, ie. value of potential offspring, value as breeding animals, etc.
Moral of the story.... There is no way to argue this is fraud and very scarce evidence to support a civil case.
No, I don't have a license to import reptiles, nor have I ever done so. I imported a dog, not a reptile.
Except Josh?
05-29-2012, 12:28 PM #88 btmexotics
....
A man's word is his most valuable asset.
Since once again, you seem to fail to understand what constitutes fraud legally, let me try to explain. There are 5 criteria necessary, even in small claims court (might want to check your limits in the states you're considering - Missouri where you reside is a max of $3000).
1. The false or fradulent statement or misrepresentation must relate to material fact.
In this instance, we don't have any facts (no one has anything more than speculation, despite your opinion).
2. The defendent must know that his statement or representation is untrue.
Again, in this case it can't be proven that Jacques knew anything besides potentially that some of his dragons had died.
3. Intent to deceive.
Once again, in addition to being hard to prove, Jacques is at most guilty of non-disclosure. No evidence has been presented to assume malice or purposeful deception.
4. The victim must have reasonable reliance on the false information.
This is the only point where the case would have any ground. Ie, the buyer's purchased the animals under the assumption they would reproduce, etc. But without 1-3 there it simply isn't fraud.
5. The false statement or misrepresentation must leave the victim with LEGAL injury.
He bought an animal (personal property) that after a reasonable period developed health issues and died. Would be really hard to claim property damages, etc, which would be the only way to consider this legal injury.
Also important to note that in the US animals are considered personal property. That means that the only compensation allowed to be awarded in civil cases is the "real" value of the animal, and not punitive damages. Unfortunately many precedents have been set that demonstrate that the "real" value of the animal is often far below what you might consider "market" value, and is almost never what is actually paid. Also, no "potential" value can be recovered, ie. value of potential offspring, value as breeding animals, etc.
Moral of the story.... There is no way to argue this is fraud and very scarce evidence to support a civil case.
No, I don't have a license to import reptiles, nor have I ever done so. I imported a dog, not a reptile.
Except Josh?
AggielandReptiles
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I rest my case...
LOL! Not even remotely!
Jay Sommers Reptiles
Active member
Thank you counselor. And you you think for one minute that Jaques Odell is competiton for Josh Dovenbarger you really have no idea what you are talking about.
And Nate if you don't want me to respond to things you direct at me personally then stop directing things to me and I won't respond.
And Nate if you don't want me to respond to things you direct at me personally then stop directing things to me and I won't respond.
Why has not one customer of his came to his defence? Im going to guess its because they are all upset with him.
There are others who have issues with their Witblits but Im sure they do not want to get involved with this thread.
Id like for Jacques to come back and share some of his responses he got from his letter he sent out.
There are others who have issues with their Witblits but Im sure they do not want to get involved with this thread.
Id like for Jacques to come back and share some of his responses he got from his letter he sent out.
Captive_Science
Member
I can answer from my end Jim..
For an International order and new morph distribution, I have been very pleased in dealing with Jacques. Jacques continued with follow up conversations to check on the animals and so far mine are doing good.
We had quite a bit of discussion about the Whitblits before purchase and from the investment standpoint I felt my risk was favorable. At the time, there were a few known issues dealing with growth, premature egg death, etc. Nothing really that is grossly outside the bounds of a new random mutation.
For those of us that make signifigant investments in new mutations understand that level of risk. To tell on myself a bit, I purchased three Dunners when they first hit the market and all three perished. I re-evaluated potential and worked out another purchase on a subsequent generation and they are thriving. Being one of the first in line is not always an easy task. I didn't blame the breeder and I didn't blame myself.
Just from quickly reading the discussion, it is obvious that neither Josh nor Jacques have the available information to determine the skin issue with the Whitblits posted. So at the end of the day I don't feel that either can be blamed for withholding information or being deceptive. I suspect that if this skin issue were more than an isolated issue or had the potential to devastate a collection that this would have been news long before now.
I know there are additional animals that carry the patternless traits such as the "Zeros" being worked with, so I would like to think that we will see a nice stable line of patternless dragons developed between the two types in the future.
For an International order and new morph distribution, I have been very pleased in dealing with Jacques. Jacques continued with follow up conversations to check on the animals and so far mine are doing good.
We had quite a bit of discussion about the Whitblits before purchase and from the investment standpoint I felt my risk was favorable. At the time, there were a few known issues dealing with growth, premature egg death, etc. Nothing really that is grossly outside the bounds of a new random mutation.
For those of us that make signifigant investments in new mutations understand that level of risk. To tell on myself a bit, I purchased three Dunners when they first hit the market and all three perished. I re-evaluated potential and worked out another purchase on a subsequent generation and they are thriving. Being one of the first in line is not always an easy task. I didn't blame the breeder and I didn't blame myself.
Just from quickly reading the discussion, it is obvious that neither Josh nor Jacques have the available information to determine the skin issue with the Whitblits posted. So at the end of the day I don't feel that either can be blamed for withholding information or being deceptive. I suspect that if this skin issue were more than an isolated issue or had the potential to devastate a collection that this would have been news long before now.
I know there are additional animals that carry the patternless traits such as the "Zeros" being worked with, so I would like to think that we will see a nice stable line of patternless dragons developed between the two types in the future.
Thats good to hear Galen.
I can not wait to see this Morph strengthened up! I think they are killer looking.
Are your Dragons from a later or newer batch? Have they got to that age where it seems they start to act "different"
Thanks.
I can not wait to see this Morph strengthened up! I think they are killer looking.
Are your Dragons from a later or newer batch? Have they got to that age where it seems they start to act "different"
Thanks.
witblits
New member
Just a few quick comments/updates:
I have taken the sample to the pathologist today. We should have a reply back soon.
I am still waiting for some of clients feedback in terms of the 'survey'. I have received Alessandro and I am shocked to hear one died. He never told me. I will post our email discussions. I was never 'angry' in our emails. I think it was the language barrier. I wonder why he never told me and why he never called? Fishy. How do you guys want me to post the emails? Because the ones between Josh and me was copied directly aka it was our exact words, but I am accused of editing it. I merely left parts out that was not relevant.
I have asked Josh several questions and am still waiting for a reply:
Did you take the dragons to the vet?
What was the diagnosis and treatment?
Did you do faecals?
What did you deworm them with?
Were the dragons quarantined? How long?
Did you test them for Adenovirus?
Do you have Adenovirus in your colony?
Did you get a post mortem done?
What was the results?
Do you have the remains? And how is it preserved?
Untill I get feedback from him I have nothing further to say as he has no case.
Jay. One question. Please quote the part where I call you a 'liar'.
Goodbye
I have taken the sample to the pathologist today. We should have a reply back soon.
I am still waiting for some of clients feedback in terms of the 'survey'. I have received Alessandro and I am shocked to hear one died. He never told me. I will post our email discussions. I was never 'angry' in our emails. I think it was the language barrier. I wonder why he never told me and why he never called? Fishy. How do you guys want me to post the emails? Because the ones between Josh and me was copied directly aka it was our exact words, but I am accused of editing it. I merely left parts out that was not relevant.
I have asked Josh several questions and am still waiting for a reply:
Did you take the dragons to the vet?
What was the diagnosis and treatment?
Did you do faecals?
What did you deworm them with?
Were the dragons quarantined? How long?
Did you test them for Adenovirus?
Do you have Adenovirus in your colony?
Did you get a post mortem done?
What was the results?
Do you have the remains? And how is it preserved?
Untill I get feedback from him I have nothing further to say as he has no case.
Jay. One question. Please quote the part where I call you a 'liar'.
Goodbye
Captive_Science
Member
Jim - I have a male Whits and a het female from November 2011 hatch. I took receipt of them in March 2012. The het female is a bit slow growing, but the male is roughly 250g and progressing nicely.
It is awkward in describing anything really "different" about them. Comparing to any other dragon in the collection, they seem to be a bit skiddish during bathing and handling. Their strike, so to speak, while feeding seems to be slower but more intent. Again, hard to describe but makes sense once witnessed. Only other issue I noticed was the male Whits was noticeably uncomfortable on smooth surfaces as I quarantine with no substrate. This subsided once a paper substrate was added.
To date, no signs of neuro issues, vision and/or skin issues.
Of the few that I have spoken to that received shipments of latter clutches in the US, it appears that theirs are doing well with no visible signs of ailments.
It is awkward in describing anything really "different" about them. Comparing to any other dragon in the collection, they seem to be a bit skiddish during bathing and handling. Their strike, so to speak, while feeding seems to be slower but more intent. Again, hard to describe but makes sense once witnessed. Only other issue I noticed was the male Whits was noticeably uncomfortable on smooth surfaces as I quarantine with no substrate. This subsided once a paper substrate was added.
To date, no signs of neuro issues, vision and/or skin issues.
Of the few that I have spoken to that received shipments of latter clutches in the US, it appears that theirs are doing well with no visible signs of ailments.
Jay Sommers Reptiles
Active member
Jaques,
When I said there were issues with witblits you said there were not and that I don't know what i am talking about. That's calling me a liar.
Everyone is stuck on a pathology report or taking the animal to the vet. Why? It does absolutely nothing except prove cause of death.It does not prove whos fault it is. Knowing the cause of death doesn't clear anyones name. The important thing that is needed to be proved is that the animals are dead.Yes it's nice to know why but that doesn't place blame no matter what scenario you play out.Skin cancer,resperatory... doesn't matter. the fact is any one of those things is easily associated with weak animals.The reason they are weak could be associated with this genepool/
I never said Jaques was at fault for the issues directly(except he should have outcrossed them).What I said was that he should have told his future customers about all the issues he was aware of after he was aware of them. Not just the slow growing ,egg death etc. Why pick and choose what problems to be up front about? If Jaques felt he was righteous than why did he no tell people that alot of the witblits died? If he really felt the death was just bad luck why did he keep it a secret but tell peole the truth about the other issues?
The point of this whole thread was not to place blame on Jaques for the animals death.I personally don't care what the cause of death is. I care about the fact that there are multiple issues associated with this morph thus far. Jaques was trying to keep the problems and deaths he WAS aware of a secret. It needed to be brought out by somebody since he was continuing to leave out the important information. This was an information thread started by me to let everyone know there have been multiple issues with this morph. Noone want's compensation. Everyone knows there are risks associated with dealing in live animals.I know I have lost thousands in my life.However just because you take a risk and lose animals doesn't mean you should take your experiences to the grave.
When I said there were issues with witblits you said there were not and that I don't know what i am talking about. That's calling me a liar.
Everyone is stuck on a pathology report or taking the animal to the vet. Why? It does absolutely nothing except prove cause of death.It does not prove whos fault it is. Knowing the cause of death doesn't clear anyones name. The important thing that is needed to be proved is that the animals are dead.Yes it's nice to know why but that doesn't place blame no matter what scenario you play out.Skin cancer,resperatory... doesn't matter. the fact is any one of those things is easily associated with weak animals.The reason they are weak could be associated with this genepool/
I never said Jaques was at fault for the issues directly(except he should have outcrossed them).What I said was that he should have told his future customers about all the issues he was aware of after he was aware of them. Not just the slow growing ,egg death etc. Why pick and choose what problems to be up front about? If Jaques felt he was righteous than why did he no tell people that alot of the witblits died? If he really felt the death was just bad luck why did he keep it a secret but tell peole the truth about the other issues?
The point of this whole thread was not to place blame on Jaques for the animals death.I personally don't care what the cause of death is. I care about the fact that there are multiple issues associated with this morph thus far. Jaques was trying to keep the problems and deaths he WAS aware of a secret. It needed to be brought out by somebody since he was continuing to leave out the important information. This was an information thread started by me to let everyone know there have been multiple issues with this morph. Noone want's compensation. Everyone knows there are risks associated with dealing in live animals.I know I have lost thousands in my life.However just because you take a risk and lose animals doesn't mean you should take your experiences to the grave.
Mreynolds101110
New member
I was under the impression all new beardie morphs had weak genes at first and some issues for the first several years 
When I was first made aware of the witblits last year, I thought they seemed neat but assumed there would be risks importing a new morph and trying to work with it( not to mention I couldn't afford one).
Also, this thread made me curious if dragons from different countries may have different kinds of parasites/disease, or are they all the same? And could they be more sensitive to diseases here that are foreign to them. I have never heard of anything about that so I figured I'd ask.
When I was first made aware of the witblits last year, I thought they seemed neat but assumed there would be risks importing a new morph and trying to work with it( not to mention I couldn't afford one).
Also, this thread made me curious if dragons from different countries may have different kinds of parasites/disease, or are they all the same? And could they be more sensitive to diseases here that are foreign to them. I have never heard of anything about that so I figured I'd ask.