Info I guess it's time to move to the boi.Witblitz Dragons from South Africa

[DaveyFig]

Jay, I am stuck on a pathology report because it would show something. Cause of death is important in this. Should everyone who has an animal die in their collection tell every potential customer about the death regardless of cause? They should also keep track of and inform customers of deaths of animals that they sold within two years? Given your experience, you must a have an encyclopedia filed with accidents, illness, and natural cause deaths for every animal that you have sold that has gotten sick or injured. Does everyone get a copy of that?

We don't know how Jacques would have disseminated information if he was given a cause of death or at least some proof that animals were sick. I cannot fault him for not raising flags prematurely. I would want to know what I was dealing with too.

Have those that have witblits in their collections told all of their customers that they have animals in their collections that are withering away and dying of unknown causes when they are selling other dragons? If I was buying bearded dragons I would want to know that they symptoms that are displayed here are not something that is being harbored in the rest of their collections. Without knowing the cause of death, it would be even more risky to buy from those that have had them die than those that have not.

We should probably keep a running list of everyone who has had a bearded dragon die and owns a witblits as an info thread for people who might buy from them and want to know that they have animals just dying of unknown causes.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Jay, I am stuck on a pathology report because it would show something. Cause of death is important in this. Should everyone who has an animal die in their collection tell every potential customer about the death regardless of cause? They should also keep track of and inform customers of deaths of animals that they sold within two years? Given your experience, you must a have an encyclopedia filed with accidents, illness, and natural cause deaths for every animal that you have sold that has gotten sick or injured. Does everyone get a copy of that?

We don't know how Jacques would have disseminated information if he was given a cause of death or at least some proof that animals were sick. I cannot fault him for not raising flags prematurely. I would want to know what I was dealing with too.

Have those that have witblits in their collections told all of their customers that they have animals in their collections that are withering away and dying of unknown causes when they are selling other dragons? If I was buying bearded dragons I would want to know that they symptoms that are displayed here are not something that is being harbored in the rest of their collections. Without knowing the cause of death, it would be even more risky to buy from those that have had them die than those that have not.

We should probably keep a running list of everyone who has had a bearded dragon die and owns a witblits as an info thread for people who might buy from them and want to know that they have animals just dying of unknown causes.

Amen...

 

[witblits]

Jay et al.

I really didn't want to post anything further until I have more proof but I realized that by then I might have years of typing to do.

The important thing that is needed to be proved is that the animals are dead.

Jay I am so happy you said this. I wanted to say it but thought I'd wait for someone else to mention it. And so be it that is was you...

OK so how do we prove the animals are dead? POST MORTEM (meaning after death) examinations Jay! Can't do one on a live one...

Yes one could look at a photo as well. Up to now we have proof that ONE Witblits have died. That is the one of Josh with the skin problems. In fact the actual photo of that dragon near death he has only sent to me a few days ago.

OK and how do we prove that there is indeed a problem (any problem albeit skin, worms, immunity, etc) with Witblits? COMMUNICATION with the breeder. Josh was the only client that informed me that HE experienced some problems with the dragons. THOSE problems were never shown to be related to the morph! If he listened to me and got some PMs done then we could maybe have learned something from it. Josh ended communication with me for no reason (as shown in our emails). From there on I sold to Alessandro not believing there was a problem with the dragons. And I mean the dragons I kept back were doing great! Alessandro said he experienced problems with parasites (I will post all our emails on here soon). Once again parasites are not a morph related problem! Alessandro never told me his dragon was doing bad, he never told me it died. How was I to know!? So I sold with the utmost of confidence to Mikkel. I mean all our dragons were still doing great. And now you claim his has also died. If it did then he never told me, still haven't. So I sold to Alex, and four others without knowing Mikkel's, Allesandro's and all of Josh's have died.

So here it is: IF there is/was a problem then I was NOT aware of it Jay. I have never said that they didn't have problems. I have known from the start that they grow slow and the don't get huge. This you can find on several places on the internet. My clients were also made aware of this.

So where is the photos of the other two of Josh that died? (PS: You said only two of Josh's is dead. Josh said three. Which is it now?)
Where is the photo of Alessandro's?
And where is the photo of Mikkel's that you also said was dead?

Please send me the pictures. (It will also give me some peace of mind knowing I am not being played here.)

Photos are only of value that they have died. Post mortems would have given us answers. I am struggling to get my head around the fact that you loose three dragons (whether they be Witblits or not), you never take them to a vet, you never get a PM done. Don't you care that the rest of your collection might be at risk? YOU SHOULD!

I am still waiting for Josh's replies to my questions. I am still waiting for a response from Mikkel (via email).

I am still waiting from the pathologist.

How can I post my email discussions with the clients?

Thanks Galen. Keep us posted on them. 250 grams! Jeez! That is great. Not even a year old. That is great for a Witblits. Perhaps this is showing that we are getting some size into them after all. I am super exceited to know what size he gets to!

 

[AggielandReptiles]

And once again, now that Jacques has been properly informed of these "issues" he is doing everything he can to investigate the situation.

Jacques, sorry your reputation has been tarnished by hurting someone's feelings. Someone who isn't even a customer of yours, and claims to not know anyone who has witblits (competition).

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Nate,

I never said i didn't know anyone with witblits, I said he was not competition. And stop talking to me and about me the way you are. It is really childish. I don't get my feelings hurt.I am a grown man you are still very young.Grow up. Looks more like Jaques got his feelings hurt and you are now having to comfort him and apologize for my attack. You are studying to be a vet and I lecture along side them. You are not as smart or funny as you think.

Good I am glad Jaques is finally "looking into it". Took him long enough.It's been over a year.

 

[alessandro]

to jacques and everyone interested,

i know for sure that i have done my best to keep them alive, for the animals and for the investment i have done.
i havent' contacted anymore jacques with health issues because:
1) i know i was taking a risk to take this animals, not even being sure they were truly genetic. when you want to have a "first" you need to take risks.
2) we were already discussing about other things (apart of this discussion) and was useless to me to discuss any further with you. i have my problem and i prefer to quit other long discussion knowing they will bring me nowhere.
3) i understand that when someone start to ask if there where any issues inside your breeding facilities
(Did you take the dragons to the vet?
What was the diagnosis and treatment?
Did you do faecals?
What did you deworm them with?
Were the dragons quarantined? How long?
Did you test them for Adenovirus?
Do you have Adenovirus in your colony?
Did you get a post mortem done?
What was the results?
Do you have the remains? And how is it preserved?)
he is trying to find a better justification of what happening instead of trying to understand if something can be done. whatever you answer to this question ther is always a double reading.

so at the end i know i have taken my risk, i haven't contacted you anymore because i was not asking you anything, you have contacted me to know what happened and i have explained to you the situation, as i am not asking anything to anyone i don't need to justify myself and i don't need to show proof to anybody. if someone need proof please try with your own money!!!

i still think it is an INCREDIBLE morph, i like their color when they are ok. i have het to continue my work, i know for sure they are genetic, i know that het are strong and breedable, i will look if the babies are strong and they grow up as the others do, i have decided to do a responsible work to make them stronger because I THINK THAT THE ANIMALS I RECEIVED WERE NOT SO STRONG, i will keep to mix them up with other unrelated animals to create genetic diversity (i have enaugh animals, not a lot but enaugh, that i can trace a genetic history and when i don't have them i will ask them to some good friends).
maybe in a future (short?? long??) i will be able to have some animals available BUT that will be when i will be SURE enaugh that the animals i am offering could have the same issues of a normal animal. THIS IS WHAT I WILL DO. it is what i have done with leatherback and, up to today, i believe it is one of the strongest line.

these are my 2 cents
best wishes
alessandro

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Well said Alessandro. I agree with you on all point's. My problem was never with the morph,the animals or the risks involved. My problem was with the outright denial by Jaques, that there were any issues with his animals no matter what the cause or who was at fault. The future of the witblits does look bright but that is because of what is being done with them by experience,compitent and ethical breeders. All the excuses(and inherent risks) are acceptable in the begining.But after issues arise and the breeder is aware there might be problems the game changes drastically.

Alessandro I agree,your leatherback line is the best in my opinion.It also has the nicest look and consistent scalation(not irregular).

Most people do not know what it took to get the translucent and leatherback morphs where they are today.

 

[JimD]

Well said Alessandro. I agree with you on all point's. My problem was never with the morph,the animals or the risks involved. My problem was with the outright denial by Jaques, that there were any issues with his animals no matter what the cause or who was at fault. The future of the witblits does look bright but that is because of what is being done with them by experience,compitent and ethical breeders. All the excuses(and inherent risks) are acceptable in the begining.But after issues arise and the breeder is aware there might be problems the game changes drastically.

Alessandro I agree,your leatherback line is the best in my opinion.It also has the nicest look and consistent scalation(not irregular).

Most people do not know what it took to get the translucent and leatherback morphs where they are today.

"Amen!.."

 

[witblits]

My problem was with the outright denial by Jaques, that there were any issues with his animals no matter what the cause or who was at fault.

Jay, your issue with ME has become so blinding that it seems you are missing the whole discussion here.

I had NO REASON to believe that there were any problems with the morph. Only up to a few days ago was I made aware of the death of all of Josh's, Allesandro's and allegedly Mikkel's Witblits. If they informed me earlier of their deaths then I would have been aware and then I could have informed future clients. I didn't deny it because I didn't care I denied because I didn't know. Alessandro just said himself that he never told me.

And now that we know some of our clients have experienced problems we are doing something about it! I am doing everything to get some answers. It would have helped if we had some more samples though.

Jay I also mentioned that we have been 'out crossing' the Witblits. So your comments on unethical inbreeding has no relevance. Galen's comment on the size of his 6 month old male Witblits of over 250 grams is proof!

Thanks for your comments Alessandro. Yes the Witblits hets you produced are doing good. Gadarlf's (that was bought from you for those that don't know) have already bred and he produced some Witblits.

I am dissapointed in your lack of response though. I only have asked you one thing: what parasites were they and how are you treating them? After this our contact ended. I don't ask all these questions bacause I want to be silly. In fact this is how we (vets) get to a diagnosis/answers. I wanted to help in the treatment of them. My plan was most definately not to accuse you of anything. I appologize if this is how it came accross.

Can you maybe tell me now what parasites they were? Not that we can do anything about it but we can at least test the other Witblits for these parasites and give them the correct treatment. I suspect they had coccidia. This would explain all the clinical symptoms including the weakness in the hind legs.

Please let me know which parasites they were. I will appreciate it alot! You can PM/email me if you would rather do that. Thank you.

 

[Captive_Science]

Jacques - My statement was incorrect. That should have read 150g, not 250g. Error on my end with no proof read. Growth appears to be normal in fashion and I would average with most juvenile stock. I will update you +/- future growth activity.

 

[witblits]

Haha. Okay. You had me all excited there...

 

[alessandro]

I am dissapointed in your lack of response though. I only have asked you one thing: what parasites were they and how are you treating them? After this our contact ended. I don't ask all these questions bacause I want to be silly. In fact this is how we (vets) get to a diagnosis/answers. I wanted to help in the treatment of them. My plan was most definately not to accuse you of anything. I appologize if this is how it came accross.

Can you maybe tell me now what parasites they were? Not that we can do anything about it but we can at least test the other Witblits for these parasites and give them the correct treatment. I suspect they had coccidia. This would explain all the clinical symptoms including the weakness in the hind legs.

Please let me know which parasites they were. I will appreciate it alot! You can PM/email me if you would rather do that. Thank you.

you are disappointed?!?!?!??!?!?


you were going to help me in the treatment?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


you suspect coccidia?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

and you think, after more than 20 year involved with dragon, that i am not able to see coccidia and i am not able to control it?!?!?!?!?!?!

we (vet)?!?!?!?!

i live in italy, maybe you don't know but we have vet also here!!!!that may sound incredible but to my knowledge they are really good ones

just think how much i am disappointed...it is a real good reason to not answer you anymore

that sound to me ridiculuos and even a bit teasing me. this is the last time i will answer to jack....

alessandro

 

[witblits]

I don't know what to say.

I am trying to make sense of it all and these are the replies I get. We will get nowhere like this. All I wanted is some answers on what parasites and all I see is 'sensored' things...

One of the forum mebers told me that I am being conned here. This was his reasons: The past buyers have all bred their Witblits despite them being severely sick. They have all produced good quantitites of offspring. They have enough animals now to control the market in USA and Europe. Their plan is to 'bad guy' Witblits dragons so that people rather buy from them.

I didn't make much of it but somehow this is creeping into my mind.

I trukly hope this is not the case.

If you feel that you do not want to buy from me but you still want a Witblits please send me an email or PM. I will gladly refer you to some of our clients in Europe and USA.

We will continue our investigation into this matter despite the hurdles we continue to cross.

We will continue to sell our dragons in the Americas, Europe and Asia.

I will do my future posts on the other thread as I think tghis BOI is going nowhere. I am hoping to hear from the pathologists soon.

 

[Lucille]

One of the forum mebers told me that I am being conned here. .

Name the member. You cannot simply attribute quotes to vague, anonymous third parties.

In addition, your theory is laughable. You are positing some kind of financial conspiracy by a diverse group of dragon owners? That is pretty far fetched. Why would they knock you out of the ring by saying there are problems with the critters, which would be their product as well?

 

[witblits]

Lucille. I too believe that it is not the case. I am merely trying to say ones mind thinks strange things in times like these...

My previous post might have sounded like I am against them but this is not the case. I still believe Josh and Alessandro to be great breeders and they are respected by many. I to look up to them! I am merely dissapointed that our communication wasn't how it could have been. (Perhaps something I should learn from this is to do more telephone communication instead of email?)

As I said I will happily refer (and have done so several times in the past) future buyers to Josh and Alessandro. There are some clients that want to buy directly from the original breeder but many (most) don't want to take the risk of international shipping. I have had the odd person wanting only one het as they have already purchased another het from the local breeder.

Appologies if my previous post sounded threatening. Not my intention.

We are doing what we can to figure out if the problems are indeed morphs related. This coming week I want to take some x-rays of the pelvic areas of some dragons, including a A5 (6m old male Witblits), Blits (oldest male Witblits, first ever Witblits born), Havanah (female Witblits), a het and a totally unrelated female. This will give us a good and broad spectrum of cases. My plan is to see if there is some bone abnormality in the Witblits that could possibly explain the strange signs that Josh and Allesandro described in their Witblits' hind legs.

 

[JimD]

One of the forum mebers told me that I am being conned here. This was his reasons: The past buyers have all bred their Witblits despite them being severely sick. They have all produced good quantitites of offspring. They have enough animals now to control the market in USA and Europe. Their plan is to 'bad guy' Witblits dragons so that people rather buy from them.

Jacques.

It was not a past customer of yours that started this thread. How can you say this?
Jay started this thread because of your lack of concern that was brought to you. You shrugged it off as nothing.
It has nothing to do with a conspiracy.

 

[DaveyFig]

Jacques.

It was not a past customer of yours that started this thread. How can you say this?
Jay started this thread because of your lack of concern that was brought to you. You shrugged it off as nothing.
It has nothing to do with a conspiracy.

I will preface this by saying that I was not the one that contacted Jacques in private.

This thread was started the same week that witblits hets were produced by someone other than Jacques. While Jacques may not be competition in the world market of bearded dragons, until others produced them he was the only source for witblits. Now that there are others, it seems that Jacques is no longer needed, and those that are so superior to Jacques that they do not consider him competition will be able to capitalize on this morph that is "riddled with issues".

It was not started because of Jacques lack of concern. According to Jay, Jacques knew about the issues long ago. The thread wasn't started long ago. Why not?

The thread was started because Jay was called a liar.

I disagree that Jacques shrugged it off as nothing. It appears that he tried to get more information. It isn't impolite to ask someone what is causing problems with their animals. If someone says that their animals are growing slow, then withering away with a black skin ailment, it is not rude to ask them if they took them to the vet. It is ok to ask what the vet said too. Offering insight by suggesting causes to look at could be beneficial. If someone says they got animals full of parasites, but doesn't elaborate on the specific parasite, it really is alright to ask what kind. That isn't hostile. That sounds like someone trying to get to the bottom of something.

I haven't read anything yet that would lead me to believe that Jacques is dodging anything. It sounds like he is trying to analyze things as he goes and people see that as a lack of concern. Moving forward, I would be more concerned with the rest of the collection than the one animal that died. You don't do a necropsy to see what killed an animal to help THAT animal. It is done to see what did kill the animal so that things can be ruled out for the rest of the collection.

 

[OEdwards]

How do we know we are not going to see this happen with silvers and zeros?

 

[JimD]

How do we know we are not going to see this happen with silvers and zeros?

No Zeros have been hatched (as far as I know) and a lot of het Silvers were produced. They were not bred back to each other to produce Silvers. They were bred to unrelated hets and from the ones I have produced, none are showing any issues. I also have not put any up for sale yet.

 

[Primelaw]

Hi. I just got a Witblit female. I noticed that she is slower and less coordinated than my other dragons. Weight gain is not as fast as well. Any comment or advise on whether breeding out these traits is possible?