I have huge internal conflict over this - Joe Dembinski

[Dembinski Reptiles]

Good questions

Hi Jerry,

You bring up some good points and all those points I pondered when I first saw the thread. Yes, it had been couple months from the time I sent his animals til the time of the thread. I didnt get a phone call or email from Brian at all. Just noticed the thread. I also wondered how he would have missed my ads on here and KS. Plus, a search would of brought my name up on this site and he could of PM me as well. I felt there were plenty of avenues to reach me without starting a thread. This is where I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Lets face it some people are still new to PC and the web. I am and Im still learning things. On all my ads for imported Ball Pythons I put a 48 hour guarantee only. And for obvious reasons. BUT, its not written in stone. If its a reasonable time and the customer is nice about it, I try to work with them. Example Cheryl. She didnt make a refund request. She just wanted to inform me and even stated that she didnt want a refund and saw my guarantee. Why take a risk at losing a customer like this for a few bucks ? I sent her a partial refund anyways. At the same time I also did a trade. The customer sent me some crappy animals that I had to work with before I could sell them (thin, swollen gum, etc). They got a 10 lot of baby Ball Pythons from me in exchange. A week goes by and they email me stating that 4 died and they wanted a refund. Refund on a trade ? And lets just say they werent nice about it either. My reply was that they knew darn well they sent me sick reptiles and my guarantee is clearly stated. I kept firm on my policy to this person. One customer I can do without. I do have a bottomline now matter if its my best customer. At some point the problem cant be put on the dealer/breeder and the customer has to accept the fact the problem could of been theirs and they are dealing with live animals and not all make it all the time. BUT, I always reserve the right to extend my guarantees or not. LOL !! Its a judgement call. I call them as I see them. Yes, Im sure Ive been taken for a few times, but the good always outweighs the bad.

If Brain approach was different, I cant say that I would of followed the same avenue. I had plenty to justifiy a "no refund" and not many would dispute it. I try to do what I feel is right at the time. But, Im sure there will eventually be a time where I wont see eye to eye with even a good customer.

 

[snakegetters]

Brian - please do a direct fecal smear and look for protozoans. All those symptoms would be ringing my alarm bells for Entamoeba invadens, a very serious pathogen. If the smear is positive, Flagyl, ICe or IV fluids and support antibiotics would be an appropriate treatment. If it is negative, give fluid support (oral electrolyte solutions at 1-2% of body weight daily, and/or ICe or IV fluids such as Normosol) until you do diagnose the problem.

Obviously nobody can make a 100% diagnosis on the Internet based only on a description of symptoms, but Entamoeba is the first thing I would look for if I had a snake presenting that way.

If the belly "stain" happened after death that is a normal consequence of gall bladder breakdown and does not indicate pathology in the live animal.

 

[MiamiExotics]

Losses of 1 out of 4???? You need to change suppliers. I bought 300 straight from africa through a middleman here in Miami who didnt even see them. All i did was pick up at airport, and set up at my place individually. I lost 6 out of them all and every single one I sold was feeding great and gained LOTS of grams. I dont understand how you would lose 1 out of 4?
Did you get them when the market was super flooded and they were left overs>???
I even bought 676 from an importer for one dollar each! As they were not to his liking in weight and he thought they would not do well. I had a customer who bought them all for 3.00each and he set them up and fed them. He lost exactly 76 of them but that is still better than 1 of 4. He had 600 perfectly healthy feeding babies for the rest of the year. And these were supposed to be "bad" and likely to regurge etc. They were never treated etc It was just late in the year and they had hatched probably two or three weeks before arrival and had absorbed all yolk and then some. The vast majority all did fine.

I highly suggest you switch suppliers or see if the way you haev them set up could be affecting them but I highly doubt that . Looks like someone is dumping junk on you. I suggest you change suppliers.

If you want high quality balls that are fresh and ready for setting up, let me know. I can steer you in right direction from years of personal experience with cb baby imports, or you can get them direct from me!
Mike
786-853-7065

 

[Dembinski Reptiles]

Balls

Mike,

Thanks for the offer and I may take you up on it. Geez, $3 each is alot cheaper then what I paid. I did get them in, in what Id call, mid-season (late April). I doubt it was my supplier. Ive gotten Ball Pythons from him for years and never had a problem. Either you got a great batch in or the very first. Ive have spoken to plenty of people and even some made comments here as well. Last year just seemed to be a bad year. It happens. And I seriously doubt it was due to their care here or at others places. Actually the supplier I got them from didnt even house them yet. Once he gets his in, Im over there sorting threw them. I get them right out of the box.

 

[Brian030]

Re: JOE, personally,

just my opinion, I dont believe you should have provided any type of restitution to the individual who lodged this on the BOI.
You were certainly more than generous in offering a refund, but the fact is if I am not mistaken, the purchase originated in May.

My question and its only out of curiosity is where does your liability stop and his begins? I dont understand about giving you the "benefit of the doubt" on a complaint that may have originated 7 months ago. Unless I misread the original post. I think out of embarrasment on his part, he realized his mistake, and found it more expedient to give you back the $ 35.00, which you rightly deserved.

I dont think anyone here would have questioned your motives had you denied him his original request. Their are elements of risks in every sale, and the buyer must be prepared to except them as well, but you are a good person who apparently values the potential for future business, in this industry, thats worth its weight in gold. Again, my sincerest appreciation. JERRY

Jerry,

I can't entirely disagree with you here. As sarcastic as your tone may seem, there is some truth to your post. But it wasn't embarrassment that made me return the refund (which he has subsequently returned to me). It was appreciation.

To be honest, at the time of the original post, I did not expect him to be so quick to send a refund. I expected some of the "run-around" that other people will give you. I will admit that I was still emotional over the loss of an animal, and a very pretty one at that. I had already gone through the whole process of imagining what her offspring would look like, and had my hopes up. Had Joe argued with me at the time, I would have wrote him off and never done business with him again.

I never even took the money out of my paypal account, and made a mental note to myself that I would return the refund if the other two bp's turned out to be what I consider "better than average."

Here is the bottom line, as I see it:

I had a problem with the purchase. Joe handled it. He didn't argue (though he could have, as you stated). He didn't refuse the refund (though he could have, as you stated). He didn't cause any type of problems at all. I actually asked for a replacement CH female, which he refused to provide (for very good reasons).

I can't say it any better than you already have. Joe is "a good person who apparently values the potential for future business, in this industry, thats worth its weight in gold." There is not a "potential" for future business from me...it is GUARANTEED!

 

[Brian030]

uh-oh...forgot the rules

Hope I don't get dinged for forgetting to add my full name at the bottom of the thread...

Brian G. Engleman

Sorry WEBSLAVE!

 

[Brian030]

Brian - please do a direct fecal smear and look for protozoans. All those symptoms would be ringing my alarm bells for Entamoeba invadens, a very serious pathogen. If the smear is positive, Flagyl, ICe or IV fluids and support antibiotics would be an appropriate treatment. If it is negative, give fluid support (oral electrolyte solutions at 1-2% of body weight daily, and/or ICe or IV fluids such as Normosol) until you do diagnose the problem.

Obviously nobody can make a 100% diagnosis on the Internet based only on a description of symptoms, but Entamoeba is the first thing I would look for if I had a snake presenting that way.

If the belly "stain" happened after death that is a normal consequence of gall bladder breakdown and does not indicate pathology in the live animal.

Tanith:

We had a fecal smear done on the other two, and they were fine. We injected feeders with .5mL of pediaLite and .2mL of B-complex vitamin solution each week for three months. We also added .1mL of fat-soluble (A, D, and E) solution once a month over the same period (just to be safe). For an "internet diagnosis", you did quite well! The origin of the post was quite some time ago, so the time of worry has long passed.

I have pics of both "survivors". They are quite healthy, happy, and beautiful. The pics are just slightly too big to post here, but I'd be happy to show you if you email [email protected] (I'm starting to get the hang of this thing now)

Brian G. Engleman

 

[snakegetters]

Really glad to hear you did a fecal and treated the snakes. It bugs me when people buy snakes and don't give them support care when they get sick. Snakes are not "disposable" pets and don't deserve to be treated as such.

Also glad to hear the little guys are doing well. I didn't know how old the thread was since it came up on the latest discussions.

I remember treating a batch of black mambas that came in looking just as you described - emaciated and dehydrated despite access to water, internal bleeding. My alarm bells were ringing as soon as I laid eyes on these guys, and I was right. We only managed to save a few of them since they were in such horrendous shape after months of neglect. *sigh*

The wildlife import trade can be a very sad one for the animals, and even though I love working with these species I often wish that they were not imported. Or at least that both exporters and importers would feel more ethically responsible for the small lives that are in their hands.

 

[Dembinski Reptiles]

?

Well, Im going to chime in here to state a few things, as I feel this thread may start taking a life of its own. Ive seen this happen all to often here. First off, I will stand by my quality and care my herps I get or breed any minute of any day. When the Ball Pythons come in, I have the benefit, to sort threw them. I have a simple approach that has been useful in previous years. I put my hand in the cage. If it bites me, I examine it for mites and ticks, and make sure their nice fat little babies. I then check their vent, eyes and mouth. If all checks out, then they come home. They are set up individually in shoe box racks, as a precaution I still treat for mites, use white paper towels as substrate so I can observe when they pass a stool and for any signs of mites or ticks and offered fresh water daily. I dont want anyone thinking that "yes" Dembinski Reptiles has good customer service, but his supplier or quality may be in question. As Ive stated before, last year was my 5th year getting these from the same source. I had very little problems with what I have got. Im guessing, but Im sure Im not too far off, but Ive probably had over 2000 baby Balls in over that time span. I may have lost 150 or less total. As Brian Conley and Cheryl have stated, it just wasnt me or the time of year. These were all fat little active guys that just didnt do well. Ive talked to numerous people who got theres in and they also stated that this was their worst year too. M n R may have had a great batch, who knows, Im not questioning their results. I keep a open mind and may very well give their source a try. The last comments almost make it sound like Brian got in thin, near death and extremely emaciated Ball Pythons. This just isnt so. I believe the word he used was slightly and that would be my only dispute with Brian. But everyone has their own thoughts on that. Even the test came back negative. I just dont want my quality or sources to come into question to any potential customer. I stand behind ALL (imports to Spider Ball Pythons) the herps I sell.

Secondly, In all honesty Brain, I doubt Jerry meant any disrespect. Its hard to read 'tone' in written words. You both seem like great guys and Id hate to see that go in a downward direction. Ive done this myself, only to end of apologizing, for reading into something that was clearly not there. HECK, I might be doing it now with this response.

Thridly, Id just hate to have my name attached to a thread that maybe heading in the wrong direction for all the wrong reasons. I dont want any bad blood between parties involved in this thread. And I stand behind my quality. If people think I treat my customers well, you should see how I treat my herps. They come first.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

BRIAN, my remarks were not

intended to be sarcastic, the fact is Joe did not do anything wrong that should have prompted you to place the post in the first place.

He fulfilled his obligation and the sale was finished. Now several months later you decide to post it on the BOI. I find that a bit self serving .

This is the animal business and their are risks involved as in any perishable business. Animals do die, but it would be to your advantage to take a look at the terms prior to the purchase, make sure you know what your getting into, and pick your supplier wisely. But be prepared to accept a loss. Not post it seven months later!

If you have to get in touch with Joe, just to let him know what transpired, thats fine, but between you and Joe. Once you post it here, as you know it takes on a life of its own. I just dont believe it should have gone to a public forum. Most if not all sales, are final within a reasonable amount of time, and a half a year, is more than anyone deserves, and more than anyone should expect .

 

[snakegetters]

Just for the record, my comments about the wildlife import/export business are general and are not meant to apply to any individual on this thread. I do not know any of the people involved here and I am not commenting on the quality of their animals.

 

[Dembinski Reptiles]

!!

Tanith, thanks for the comments and I do see your points.

Jerry, Just to clear a misunderstanding, it wasnt 7 months ago when he put the thread out. It posted in July I believe. Still thats a 2 month time frame from when he got the Balls and your point is still valid. It only got put back up to the top after he updated the thread.

 

[Dembinski Reptiles]

Man I have to leave work !!

What I meant to say Jerry is that he started the thread back in July (2 months after the deal) and just didnt post it 7 months later. It only got moved to the top when he updated the thread. But even a 2 month time period after the deal still makes your points valid. Hope thats clearer than my last post. LOL !

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I'm still pleased with the purchase I made from Dembinski reptiles, and I just recomended him to someone last week! The babies I got needed a bit of help to get going, but I purchased them as fresh imports that he had never even attempted to feed~ so I was not uninformed I could have trouble~

As far as how they look when they came in? I take photo's of everything......This is how they looked on June 4, the day they arrived!! Fat and Sassy~ and yep~ I got bit!!

Thanks Joe!

 

[MiamiExotics]

I might have been lucky as I did hear a few bad batches came in. I got my keepers at beggining and the $1.00 ones at mid season(please remember they were "too thin" so I thought I knew someone who could do good with them and they did.
Here in miami we are close knit and nobody really had any bad complaints on the animals that were coming in. I went through probably 30 shipments from 8 or 9 different importers and they all looked very good and did good as people are still selling them!
I heard that a very bad batch early on came in at California and another through New York or Dallas, dont remember. But in all and all the ones that came through south florida were very good.
It happens though as it is the importing business. The best time to buy them is two weeks after they start coming in originally , that way they are not premies but full blown fat and sassy hatchings. The for a month to month and half after they are great. Other than that, they start sitting as everyone is fooded with them and they get to drink african water, etc and get all nasty. The worst ones are the very last. I prefer bush babies over the left over ch babies.
Just to many come in at once and people are selling them everywhere that competition is so high and all that the babies are held til sale here in the us and in africa people are holding them and having to water them, etc as they are sometimes a month old before they even come in during that time. They are no good as their water is not exactly tap water.
Either way I know Dembinskis animals are great, I have a couple myself I got in trade through other people, etc...
Back to the thread,
I think it takes a very very honset and great customer service to return money on a dead snake after so long.
My policy is 7 days but when you think about it, alot go go wrong in 7 days, as much as a simple 24 hours.

 

[snakegetters]

I have to wonder why someone more experienced in reptile husbandry and hygiene doesn't just spend a few months out of the year in Africa hand picking snakes and making sure that the export facilities are set up to properly care for the animals? It can't be THAT hard to hire and train some locals to make sure the cages and water are clean.

I imagine that this is quite economically feasible since it would so significantly reduce the mortality rate. Also the folks over there would have first crack at potentially high-dollar new morphs that came in.

So why isn't this happening?

 

[Classic Dum's]

I dont understand how you would lose 1 out of 4?

My understanding of what went on last year is that the african dealers tried to price fix. The supplier I got mine from got his late due to this they tried to force everyone here to pay $8 or so a head to them ten the animals would have costed everyone here $10 or so once landed after permits and shipping etc. The ones I got came in late as the person miune came from waited for them to drop the price fixing I also know of a couple others who did the same and theirs came in late as well. When these animals are shipped fresh otta the egg they do great and youll lose just as many as if you were to produce that many here in the states however delayed or late shipments normally have problems because of the quality of the water these animals are given while in hold. This is the way its been explained to me by several people who bring in huge lots every year. I only lost 6 out of 100 this year but I had to maybe 15 that were problem children. I could only feed pinkies to or theyd regurge had to give them flaygl etc etc.

I know who Joes supplier is and its wasnt his suppliers fault. I would guess he had the same problem, they came in late. Ive bought balls from his supplier in past years and never had a problem. The person he gets his balls from is top notch so I guarentee it wasnt his fault nor an issue of Joe needing a new supplier. That much I can assure.

Now as far as Joe and his costumer service he is top notch. T make a long story short we did a trade, some of my dumerils for 1.1 66% het retics he had. When I got them I sexed them and miss sexed them. This was 3 or 4yrs ago, I was new to probs as I never trusted myself probing. I miss sexed them male and thought I had gotten 0.2 poss hets instead of the 1.1 I was supposed to. When I told Joe his instant reaction was send them back Ill send your dumerils back plus refund your shipping money so you walk away at no lose. I had someone double check my prob job and sure enough I had messed up. But Joe was awesome about the whole deal. That was the first time I had ever dealt with him, prior to that I didnt know him from anyone.

 

[odatria]

I have to wonder why someone more experienced in reptile husbandry and hygiene doesn't just spend a few months out of the year in Africa hand picking snakes and making sure that the export facilities are set up to properly care for the animals? It can't be THAT hard to hire and train some locals to make sure the cages and water are clean.

So why isn't this happening?

Check www.MAMPAM.com and you will see the very thing you describe. Daniel Bennett is working with savannah monitors this way. Monitors are Daniels passion, but he instructs them on many species. And to top it all off while he helps them with herps, he also tries to meet social needs as well.

For instance, he has built a school for an area that didnt have one. He also built a visitors center for a wildlife park to help them raise money for their facility. Go check out his website. And while you are there, click the "Donate" button and contribute to his work. I have, and I can tell you right now that it goes to a great cause.

By the way, Daniel is going to be at U.C. Davis on Feb. 6th. to discuss and sign his new book. "The Truth About Varanus Exanthamaticus." He doesnt get to the states often so dont miss a chance to meet a true conservationist who supports our hobby 100%.

Michael

 

[snakegetters]

Awesome, I'm glad to hear it. I used to volunteer at the raptor center at UC Davis, but these days I live on the other side of the US.

Here's to hoping that something similar will come about in the snake industry, especially for the venomous species which are badly misunderstood and often poorly cared or abused for out of fear.

 

[chuck tornetta reptiles]

go joe

hi all. i usually dont voice my oppinions here . but i wanted to say that i personally met joe , at the philly show in november 03 .
i gotta say i like him, he seems like a great guy, hell he even baught me lunch. ( owe you one )lol.
I understand people get upset when there animals go down hill.
but sometimes with the farm hatched baby balls , thats the way it goes .