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I want your opinion

E

evansnakes

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We all know that ball python mutations are the hottest thing on the planet right now and we all also know that there are a million people crawling out of the woodwork on this site, kingsnake and every other, selling het and possible het animals. Most of the inquiries on this BOI for the past few months have been one of the guys after another after another. Everything from $50 to $5000.

Some of these guys offer a paper trail, some don't, but does that matter. Can't they buy one het or pos het and sell 20 normals and just give everybody the same story, same papers, etc? It happens all the time. No matter how many good looking healthy animals you would buy, you would still not know the genetics for at least 1-3 years and if they are possible hets nothing could come of breeding them and you would never really know what you had purchased was or was not even possibly het for anything.

I buy het and pos het animals all the time but only from friends that I feel I can trust and breeders whose reputation is worth more to them than a quick buck. So the big question is, is it worth dealing with these guys and saving a little money or is it just something that you see and avoid while the hair on the back of your neck stands up? What makes the difference to you on somebody's character on if you buy from them or not online when you have never even met them? Just really really curious. Evan:uzi:
 
Evan,

I agree that there are more and more people popping up selling hets. pos. hets and other morphs. Unfortunately there are going to be some people out there that will sell normals as POS. Het animals just to make a quick buck. Take this for example, I have 4.0 50% pos. het Pied Balls for sale. None of the ones I have show the belly pattern that some look for in pos. het pied that is supposed to be a sign of it being a het. But I have about 35 of my c.h. balls that have the exact belly characteristics as what is looked for. if I were dishonest I would be selling the heck out of those animals and telling everyone that they are the pos. het PIED animals. Now we all know there are animals out in the wild that carry the different genes but there is no way of knowing what an animal is without being able to trust the sellers word. I honestly think in another 2 years there are going be a ton of people pissed because their supposed het animals sold to them by some of these fly by night companies/individuals turn out to be nothing more than a normal. I guess that it why I only buy het or Pos. het animals from someone I can trust.
 
Rob,
You hit the nail right on the head man!!:smokin:
Greg Holland
 
Take this for example, I have 4.0 50% pos. het Pied Balls for sale. None of the ones I have show the belly pattern that some look for in pos. het pied that is supposed to be a sign of it being a het. But I have about 35 of my c.h. balls that have the exact belly characteristics as what is looked for.
Click to expand...

Rob, you're making me nervous. I spent a lot of money on a possible het pied female that had the belly markings from a person other than the "known breeders".

Sheesh. Now I am going to worry about that female as well as if I am ever going to get my jungle from Stan. :(
 
Rolling the dice

Evan,
I'm small time (no, make that tiny time compared to people like you and Rob), so I would never even CONSIDER making that type of investment on a "possible" from someone I didn't know personally or who had a SOLID reputation. Maybe it's because I'm a paranoid ex-cop and High School teacher whose been lied to one too many times. It's hard enough for me to trust someone over the net on a small time deal when I can't shake their hand and look them in the eye. Now if I was "big time" like y'all, it might be worth the gamble to buy a possible het from an unknown seller if the price was right. I would just tell myself going in that it's like going to Vegas. It's a gamble and more times then not the house wins.

Take care & God bless,
Phil Frost
ZNJ Exotics
[email protected]
:D
 
Evan,
I have considered this myself. The same problem existed in the late 70's and 80's but on a much more restricted scale. Imports were the norm and the internet was just a thought. Our technology has really brought this to the forefront. The larger the demand for a particular item, the more scamers and operators will crawl out from the woodwork. If you buy carelessly, you had better be prepared to drive or fly across country to extract your pound of flesh. I have no solutions, personally, I must trust reputations and the BOI as you well know.
Mark Daniels
New Orleans
 
On the other hand though...

It is logical for small time breeders with small time budgets to produce proportionally fewer homozygous animals. If you want to breed ball morphs but can't afford 20K in start up costs for a pair of animals, the logical thing to do is buy a male and start breeding huge numbers of hets.

Some for future projects, some to sell.

I agree that a bit of caution is certainly warranted, but it can't be said that nobody should make purchases from relative unknowns- how else are they to become known? Many of them seem to feel that they'll get better responses by selling their animals cheaper than the average market value, knocking about 10-25% off the commonly seen price. They're not entirely wrong in this, but it can make others suspicious.
 
Personally, after a lot of consideration about this problem of buying het animals (not ball pythons, of course, but the problem is the same), I decided that buying het animals just is not worth the stress. Breeding positive hets together is chancy enough with Murphy's Law looking over your shoulder, but POSSIBLE HETS? No way! Yeah, you MIGHT hit the jackpot, but you probably won't

Unless you are really only interested in the normals anyway, and anything else would be just icing to the cake, I would say save your money and by full homozygous animals. That way you know exactly what you are getting, and there is a lot more predictability in your future plans. Unless the wild mutation comes off with the first shed skin after you buy it, of course.... :laugh:

Plus the prices will probably still be relatively high on that cultivar when it comes time for you to sell some babies. Unless things really go sour in the market, you should do quite well IF you can make the initial outlay of money, and IF you are successful breeding them.

Just be prepared for bad luck. Back when amelanistic Honduran milks were still going for $3K each, my big robust 3 year old female died coming out of brumation. I could only get that single pair of Amels from Louie Porras back in '95, and in '96 I couldn't get any. And that male, well he had no clue about females at all, so I guess it didn't matter that the female died. That little setback kicked me completely out of the market and killed my desire to ever spend any REAL money on something that can DIE on me.
 
This add has been up for Carolina Reptile Exchange for what, almost 2 months now. Why? That's a way lower price then others are selling them for! I think a fair price, what the market will support at this time but why haven't they sold?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=142248

Case in point!

Rich can sell a $15-$20 Anow or Anery corn snake for almost double.....$30

We aren't talking about a het so why can he do this? Is the quality better? I highly doubt that! He can do it because after putting in years of hard work people know they won't be let down and if they are the issue will get fixed. Is this worth the extra money?

I guess that's up to the buyer. You have to weight the risks of the person you feel you're dealing with.

I didn't buy those hets cause I wasn't comfortable with the breeder even though he may be great. I just paid an extra $1,800 to be 100% sure.. Well worth $1,800 to me!
 
..SOME THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT

Nice sunday mornin conversation( as I sit here w/my first cup of coffee) I too have many of the concerns already expressed by others in this post. Last year was my first year jumping into the ball market. I have seen many het and poss het animals out there and some of the deals made me wonder too. Because the market has so much money involved in it, I think many small time breeders are anxious to test there breeding luck and try to get there slice of the pie. Seamus made many valid points in his reply. Trying to get your name out there, competing to sell your offspring next to some of the better known dealers. I think to myself, how will I market my offspring when I produce them? Will other hobbyists/breeders think my animals are legit? Also, as a smaller breeder, I think sometimes snakes are offered cheaper because of space constraints.Maybe you had a better year than expected and space becomes a problem.
As far as buying hets/poss hets and trusting the deal, its a crap shoot at best sometimes. My feelings towards poss hets are this: If I was serious and trusted the breeder who produced them I would feel more comfortable buying an entire clutch. Single poss hets are a huge gamble,and not for me. Dont get me wrong, I love a good card game, but I dont like gambling large sums of money on my reptile investments(lol) Plus, as stated earlier, its not like you will know in a day or two. Many poss het deals are long term projects. I dont want to make a mistake today, and wait 2-3 or more yrs to have it come back to haunt me.
Part of the fun,at least to me , is raising hets and seeing those morphs pop out of an egg, or live birthed. Its kinda like christmas! But for all the years I have been doing this I dont remember any other snake with so much money and potential wrapped around it. Along with that goes the scammers who are out to deceive you for profit, and those gambles on het/poss het deals. I am all for dealing with small breeders, those who are honest and trustworthy. I feel they have a lot to offer, and are more than willing to deal on prices( simply because they can afford to be more flexible w/prices) Plus some of the small dealers are the future of this hobby. What better time to discover a business relationship and friendship. Trust is the key word in relationships, business or otherwise. Deal with those you trust,Trust those you deal with. ( I need another cup of coffee)lol Ken
 
Evan
I am all about proof, if they can't prove where the genetics came from I won't buy it. I consider myself a cautious person when I am spending my money and if I can't see a pic of the parents of whatever said mutation or if you are not well known....well my money stays with me.
There are exceptions to my rule , if I ever wanted a nice corn that was het for whatever I would contact Serpenco or South Mountain Reptiles and there would be 'my' trust in these fine businesses.
 
I personally consider "Possible Hets" as "NORMALS". It doesn't matter if you get them from a "BIG NAME" or a "UNKNOWN". Until proven a Possible Het "IS" a normal. When I purchase a possible het it has to have a "look" I like. It has to be an animal I will want and will "add" something to the offspring it might produce someday. I can't buy an animal "solely" for the hidden genes it "might" have. It has to have a "look'' that stands on it's own. If it doesn't I pass it up. I don't have Ball Pythons, but I do have boas. About half of them are from "BIG NAME" breeders. The other half if from "LESS KNOWN or UNKNOWN" breeders. Each animal I own looks perfect to me. If the possible hets I have turn out to be "actual hets" GREAT! If not they have color and markings I'm hoping they'll pass on, so I'm still a "happy camper". It's a WIN WIN situation for me. Anyway I thought I'd share my thoughts on this subject.
 
I have a rule concerning hets, which I would rarely consider breaking. I do not buy hets second hand. If I want a het, I go to a breeder.
As far as a paper trail, I'm particular. I don't care if you have a reseipt from Pete Kahl himself saying your pair of balls is het pied, I don't want them. I'll go to Pete myself, or another of the pied breeders. It's just too easy for someone to send out a couple of CH balls with that receipt.
The only documentation I consider truly valid is a signed photo ID. If it has a picture of the snake signed by the breeder, I feel pretty comfortable.
It is my opinion that within a few years, this will become the standard form of documentation as more scams are revealed.

As for the issue of possible hets, if I were going to take that route I'd again go to the breeder. I'd buy a homozygous or a 100% het male and an entire clutch of possible females. It's less of a gamble that way. Buying a possible het female from someone who didn't produce it is just out of the question.
I am not one to deal with hets to begin with, but in the case of some of the ball morphs folks like me have little choice. If I wanted to produce some pieds I have to look at hets. I simply can't drop $20K or so on a pair of homo animals, so hets are the only alternative.
While you can still be scammed, even by a breeder, there's several precautions you can take that will go a long way toward limiting your risk.

I also believe there's going to be some irate people showing up here in a couple of years when their 100% hets they got from Joe Blow turn out to be normal. With the volume of hets being moved, and the profit potential being what it is, it's simply a fact that a portion of them aren't legit. It may even be that the seller was taken earlier, and has no idea about it himself, which is one of the reasons I go to the source.
I had watched the same ads Adam mentioned. Het pieds for two grand a pair. Sounds like a good deal. I saw them at the Columbia show. I just couldn't bring myself to consider buying them though. He didn't produce them, and his price is just too low. There comes a point that if you offer too good of a deal you just create suspicion. Odd as that is, that's the way it works.
Some people are just so eager to get into the game, especially if they can get in cheaply, they jump on deals that they really should think twice about. We'll be seeing some of these folks in the years to come, and they'll begin the change in how hets are handled.
 
Here is another POV...

What an interesting thread...

Here is another take on the situation... This example will of course be based on the Ball Python market...

Last year I purchased a pair of 100% Het Genetic Stripes from Ralph Davis. The male is from 2001 and the female is from 2002, she was a hatchling at the time of purchase. I paid over $10,000.00 for the pair. The male was ready to breed this year so I bred him to normal females to produce 50% Possible Hets.

I'm not a big lover of 50% PH animals because they are hard to sell for the reasons listed by others in this post BUT the females are of GREAT value to me for future breeding stock. Here was the outcome...

3 clutches - 15.8 50% Poss Het for Genetic Stripes

Now if they are 50%ers that means "statistically" HALF of them are 100% Hets. Male 100%ers are selling at $3000-4000 ea and females for $5000+ea. After paying over $5000 for a 2001 male breeder I SHOULD be able to get $250-350 each for 50% Poss Het males... It is HARD work to say the least!

POSSIBLE HETS ARE WORTH MONEY! For instance... someone could buy 4 males for $1000 and in 4-5 years be producing homozygous Genetic Stripes... which BTW... if you had $20,000.00 right now... you COULDN'T BUY ONE!!

I think it is unfair to say that Possible Hets are worthless... if you buy enough of them... you WILL get to the Homozygous.

Some people can't afford to get the Homozygous or the 100% Hets. so those people should wait YEARS to get them? Nah... Possible Hets will get you there.

On a side note... Even IF you DIDN'T prove out your Poss Hets... look at all the Adult Breeder Females you will have to sell or use for other projects. Last time I looked at the classifieds Normal Breeder females were SELLING for over $200-300 ea.

Just some thoughts from the "other" side...

Thanks for reading!
 
Sean,
I couldn't agree more. I pick up poss and 66&ers all day long, and as long as you ask the right q?'s and get documentation, I see no harm in "poss" animals. I spoke to Tom at Cypress Creek and he said that one of the "big name" guys got started by getting nothing but poss hets. Now I know you can't just buy 1 50%er and hope to get lucky. That's why a person is checking here and the kingsnake classifieds as much as possible to get the good deals. I bought 2 66%ers from Troy Cromwell (ball pythons)for...................................Well lets just say, I got a steal. Now I've got a 100% female coming from Tropical Vision. At the VERY LEAST, I've got "FOR SURE" 50%ers, and what are 50% females going for now? $700-$1000ea!!! Poss hets are the way to go if the person is verifiable. JMHO

Greg Holland
 
Hets?

First of all I like reading the comments of all the experienced herp breeders out there. I personally don't do hets. I only breed snakes for their natural colors. I did however, buy my high dollar snakes (womas) from two different very well respected breeders. My dumeril's also came from a well respected breeder. Most of my colubrids I picked up here and there at shows or from classifieds. I think the dollar amount of the investment dictates how much trouble you will go through to get proof of an animal's bloodline. $25.00 for a cal king is very different from $3,000.00 for a blackheaded python. With the cal king what you see is what you will produce. With het animals, especially the high dollar one's, is it worth the risk? Spend the $5000.00 on a homo with the physical characteristics you desire then produce what you want. I really don't know what all the fuss is about all the BP morphs anyway. Do they feed better? Do they dance on their tails? In another year or two I think they will go the way of the albino burmese. Price crash and then you have high dollar snakes worth much less than you paid for them. Just my thoughts.... Thanks for looking.
 
David, let me tell you why I think you are wrong. Ball pythons are as hot as they are for several reasons and they can never share the fate of the burmese mutations for many reasons although if you watch the market burms have rebounded niceley, again. Three years ago you could buy quantity of wholesale baby albino burms all day for $35-50ea. You can hardly get below $100 any more. That is due to the cyclical nature of this business market. An animal is rare and valuable so everyone buys them and breeds them. The market gets to saturation point and the prices die. Albino burms went from $7000 to $150 each in 4 or 5 years!

Now, with that said. Burms lay 25-65 eggs a clutch. A HUGE ball python clutch is 12. Average is 4-6. That is why the albino ball pythons have been in the market place for over a decade and are still $2500 each. Not much of a likeness to the burms.

Also, many species lose people's interest as there are no longer new projects to explore. Anerythristic hondurans were re-energized by albino hondurans. Hypo brooks were re-energized by anery brooks. The promise of a new mutation at a higher monetary plateau changes everything. Burms were becoming old news until the granite changed that a few years back.

There are no species with the genetics to compare with ball pythons. People like Rich have an insane number of cornsnake mutations. What is it up to now Rich? 40? It has taken decades to foster these genetic mutations. In ball pythons, just in the past five years there have more mutations. I count 63 proven genetic mutations at this time that I know of personaly.

Another reason for all of this is the unprecidented genetics of ball pythons in that there are so many dominant and codominant genes. In retics you have the tiger/super tiger. In boas you have hypos. There may be a couple others out there, BUT at this point in balls you already have: spiders, pastels, pinstripes, mojaves, platinums and others! The ability to get a return on your money or produce a new compound genetic mutation in the first or second breeding of a morph is just unheard of, until now. They are revolutionary. Just next season there will be at the very least a dozen more proven genetic mutations as the spider pied, albino pied, albino pastel, albino clown, pinstripe ghost, carmel spider, super pastel ghost and so many others are created.

We have never seen anything like this and will probably never find another species that is so marketable and perfect for the pet trade in so many ways. With many areas of the country placing 6" constrictor laws in effect, the ball is perfect. Their small size and shy demeanor. Their relative ease of care and lack of aggressive behavior. Really, what snake is a better comercial product? Evan Stahl
 
What so many people who buy hets don't understand is that they are not purchasing the genetics fo the animal in question. They spend so much time trying to figure out how many generations it will take them to get to the desired combination of genetics, that they never get to the heart of the matter.

You don't pay for genetics when you buy hets, you pay for the honesty and trustworthiness of the seller. That's what it really boils down to, and those who go the cheap route are going to be sorely disappointed, sooner or later.
 
What excellent thoughts and insights!

I'm a micro-breeder. It's a real pain. Few will buy from me because I'm an unknown, but until many buy from me, I cannot become well-known. :(

I have bought 2 sets of possibles - one from a respected big breeder and one from a relative unknown. I bought from the big breeder based on name. I bought from the unknown due to our conversation, price and backing from the original breeder (it was a loaner relationship).

I have 100% hets that I cannot sell let alone possibles and I AM THE BREEDER! I have been around for at least 3 years - I have many, many posts on the Ball Python forum and I have a real email address. But so far, that has not helped much. This is a tough business and trust is key, but how do you become trustworthy when you are unknown?

Some things I look for:

* A real email address - I skip transient email hosts (hotmail, yahoo, etc.)
* How a seller "speaks" (in person, email, etc.) - are any red flags raised? Do I feel comfortable with the way they handle themselves?
* References
* I like to see pics of the parents and I usually ask for "on the spot" pics.

Hopefully, I'm at least shielded from some of the theives out there.
 
I worry a lot about this. I have what I consider a few "High end hets".....they sure cost me enough for me to call them "High end!" Anyway, this year my Het Pied Male (From Kahl) is producing sperm plugs. I have ONE normal female large enough to breed to him..........I am anxiously waiting! But I am more anxiously waiting for my Het Pied FEMALE to be ready. Not only because I want to try to produce my own pied........but also because I can talk about hets and paperwork from breeders I purchased from all day long......................But NO ONE is going to buy much of anything until I have produced the mutation I am claiming to have produced pos hets for. Bummer.............but really, it seems to me, until you produce the desired mutation and PROVE your hets.............it really doesn't matter how honest I seem, or how long I have been posting here, or at KS........no one will want my Pos Hets until I have a homozygous animal to show.

I do think that it will probably help me some having a long standing reputation of contributing to this board. Unlike KS, there is information about the poster/seller and how long they have been an active member of this community. I learned my lesson earlier this year (Jsnakes :( ) I won't even contact someone selling an animal here unless they have been contributing on this site for more than just a couple weeks or months.

Thats just my opinion, but I figure it will save me a lot of frustration if I just know up front that until I get that first pied, I might as well keep all my possible hets!
 
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