IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

[big daddy's wholesal]

Bryon I will make the call tomorrow. And if they can not get out here soon. I will contact some of our local vet hospitals. Someone will do some testing for me this week.
Allen Belcher

 

[hhmoore]

2- You state the incubation period as less than 1 month... I had heard that IBD could lay DORMANT for much longer. This isn't true?

He stated that the incubation period for PYTHONS is 28 days. I don't know if it is that short but, from everything I have read on the subject, it manifests itself within that group within 90 days (standard quarantine). With boas, it can lie dormant for much longer

 

[hhmoore]

Vendors from the Birmingham reptile show . I will not name names unless one of them show up on this thread. That would not be right. That show from what people around where I live say is eat up with it. I know of one person. Who has had problems with it. this person will never own up to it . Just like some other people that deal with the disease. The disease is highly contagious. I myself lost a whole collection to it 8 years ago. It also affects lizards. I know some are going to disagree. That's my opinion on the lizards . So he may not be the source but he has been near and around the souce. I have to admit alot of my info is from vendors and is hear say. But these guys are reliable. Of course they aren't crazy about the one this thread is about. I just don't like the guy. Sorry it's personal.

anonymous third party information is not acceptable here - like I said before, if you are going to make that post, be prepared to back it up

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

Let me remind you all that Pete Kahl had the worst outbreak in the history of our industry. He worked hand in hand with The University of Florida and there head professor (who by the way is still there and is very knowledgable on IBD)
So when the accusation was made I went to the people who I felt were the most knowledgable in the US and got all the info I am giving you here tonight. Both Pete and the Professor gave me signs to watch for and safety measures to use. The info I have given here is not something that just sounded good, but was from the horses mouth.
Allen Belcher

 

[harveysherps]

1- You have not done tissue tests. If IBD is like cancer it can be present just like my sister's cancer & NOT show up in the blood. Were there no still borns this breeding season to test the tissue or maybe even the afterbirth?

2- You state the incubation period as less than 1 month... I had heard that IBD could lay DORMANT for much longer. This isn't true?

Thanks in advance for sheding some light here...

I agree with you 100%. It can lie dormant for years. Most carrier snake never even die from it. It is more like TB than cancer. Or maybe even Aids would be a better way to describe it. I can lie dormant without a host for a long time too. I am not pointing finger. But this web site holds the proof to the IBD. The document posted with the Vets name and everything. That is all the proof I need to back up all the hear say going around.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Bryon I will make the call tomorrow. And if they can not get out here soon. I will contact some of our local vet hospitals. Someone will do some testing for me this week.
Allen Belcher

What I'm referring to is there already is documents for the testing done. You just call and ask for it. Labs never not note anything , its always on paper or something. IF the testing has already been done then you just need to make a call for the written results. If your calling for testing to BE done then .... well you said it was already done.

 

[Ed Clark]

Mr Belcher, proof that your boas have IBD was posted here on November 05, 2006 by Ron Kerstetler, why do you show up here today with all this crap about University vet techs doing all this testing...Blah, Blah, Blah. you have had almost 9 months to post results to show that your BOAS are clean, you continue to sell like nothing has ever happend! your boas have tested positive for IBD. look at the first post in this thread and that is conclusive proof. you do understand what you are doing can have a devastating effect on all reptile keepers all over? I really dont see how a bunch of vet techs can solve your problems. it would be best to stop selling and call in some specialists to help find your problem. test the boas and thats where the results will come from. you are nothing more than a plague on this wonderful hobby of ours.

Yes Wes share with all of us where did the IBD come from? I would like to hear this as well, Because hopefully it will take this one step closer to closure.
Funny how all of my supposed IBD infected snakes through over 80 clutches this season with more gravid and better yet more ovulations!
Once again I have very few boas and over 80% of my breeding stock consists of retics, burmese and ball pythons who's immune system will at max only withstand 28 days of IBD. Since the accusations of IBD we have not lost one single breeder or baby. We also have taken the fluid from new born births and have had tests run and everything looks good on our end. This month alone we have sold in excess of 850 reptiles. Come-on guys if you think the facility or care is so bad, Call for your appointment to stop in and see it for yourself! 706-615-4772 Allen Belcher

 

[critical bill]

I just don't like the guy. Sorry it's personal.

So you have absolutely no proof to back up your accusations. Outstanding. What a petty ass thing...to just chime in on a thread and all about a complaint over the size of your rats. What a petty and vindictive little turd you are.

I just cant believe that you went out of your way to make a complete horses ass out of yourself yet again. Are you going to do this on every thread you join into? Maybe it would be best if you just left.....you're really beginning to annoy me.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Mr Belcher, proof that your boas have IBD was posted here on November 05, 2006 by Ron Kerstetler, why do you show up here today with all this crap about University vet techs doing all this testing...Blah, Blah, Blah. you have had almost 9 months to post results to show that your BOAS are clean, you continue to sell like nothing has ever happend! your boas have tested positive for IBD. look at the first post in this thread and that is conclusive proof. you do understand what you are doing can have a devastating effect on all reptile keepers all over? I really dont see how a bunch of vet techs can solve your problems. it would be best to stop selling and call in some specialists to help find your problem. test the boas and thats where the results will come from. you are nothing more than a plague on this wonderful hobby of ours.

Thats pretty much what I've been driving at. We hear the testing has been done but no results were ever written down. How odd that a lab never writes anything down.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I just don't like the guy. Sorry it's personal.

I don't like him none either and I have better reasons than rat sizes but I keep anything personal out of it. If he doesn't its on him. The difference is who is going to be the bigger person and keep this business related instead of a childish pissing match.

Suffice it to say , you've added really nothing except rat sizes differ between the 2 of you.

 

[harveysherps]

I don't have to prove any thing. It has already been proven. On this site. I was just agreeing with the thread. I have enough sense not to buy from him. Because of all the hear say going on. I don't have any test that have been run. I have called any one bud Allen a foul name. I just wanted to join the group of people warning about his deceitfulness. The rats were just an example.Some of you people are really hard to get along with. Even when a guy agrees with you you still hammer him. I thought I would post some things and get a feel for things. I see now I am dealing with the wrong people. Sorry I wasted your time and mine.

 

[Cat_72]

In boas IBD can live and not have a grave effect on them. But in pythons the incubation is 28 days reguarless of whether its a 20 foot retic a 10 foot burmese or a 3 foot ball. This is one instance where size doesn't matter. It affects them all equally. Death within 28 days. NO EXCEPTION

Allen Belcher

Allen, we all know that's a load of BS. Remember this post from 11-9-2006?

Allen keeps saying that pythons will always die from IBD within 35 days, and show signs within 10 days? I'm not sure where he has gotten his(mis)information.....but from everything I have read, yes, pythons will have as a rule a much more rapid decline than boas, but the time frame is usually given FROM THE ONSET OF SYMPTOMS, not from the time of exposure.

Quoted from the Merck Veterinary manual:

Pythons are thought to be an abnormal host to the IBD retrovirus because the course of disease is more acute and neurologic symptoms more profound. In most pythons the acute symptoms that boas exhibit will be missed, and they will be presented with severe neurologic disease. While the active disease can linger for months or more in boas, most pythons die within days or weeks of the onset of clinical signs.

This again, confirms a 3 month time period from exposure to death, reinforcing the 10-35 days would be only AFTER the onset of physical symptoms.

Quote from Dave Barker (pers. com., 28 Jan. 2000),

“Python keepers have had a much easier time [than boa keepers] with IBD, basically because it appears to affect only the brain and death comes more quickly. The advantage is that the snake may show symptoms in weeks after exposure, (star-gazing, poor motor control, loss of appetite, coiling or constricting uncontrollably when they are stimulated) and so far as is known, pythons do not live longer than three months after infection. Python keepers are usually able to nip the problem in the bud very quickly.”

Back then, Allen was claiming that they all died within 35 days from exposure, and that was BS. Now he's claiming to have consulted with all of the "experts" and his story is even farther off base with "all dying within 28 days, no exceptions". Go figure.

We also all know that blood tests are all but useless. You can tentatively say a snake is IBD POSITIVE from a blood test (confirming with tissue testing), but it absolutely cannot definitively say a snake is NEGATIVE for IBD.

Maybe your animals are IBD clear, maybe you managed to move the IBD out of your collection before it spread to your animals. We'll never know, because you didn't do any worthwhile tests (if any at all) when the IBD positive boa WAS known to have passed through your hands....and all you'll perhaps be willing to do now is worthless testing as well.

At least have the decency to stop spreading misinformation to those who actually CARE about controlling the spread of IBD.

 

[harveysherps]

Allen, we all know that's a load of BS. Remember this post from 11-9-2006?



Back then, Allen was claiming that they all died within 35 days from exposure, and that was BS. Now he's claiming to have consulted with all of the "experts" and his story is even farther off base with "all dying within 28 days, no exceptions". Go figure.

We also all know that blood tests are all but useless. You can tentatively say a snake is IBD POSITIVE from a blood test (confirming with tissue testing), but it absolutely cannot definitively say a snake is NEGATIVE for IBD.

Maybe your animals are IBD clear, maybe you managed to move the IBD out of your collection before it spread to your animals. We'll never know, because you didn't do any worthwhile tests (if any at all) when the IBD positive boa WAS known to have passed through your hands....and all you'll perhaps be willing to do now is worthless testing as well.

At least have the decency to stop spreading misinformation to those who actually CARE about controlling the spread of IBD.

I believe this woman knows her stuff. I agree with her and the others that posted stuff on the IBD. I am impressed at the knowledge this group has on the subject.

 

[BryonsBoas]

I don't have to prove any thing. It has already been proven. On this site. I was just agreeing with the thread. I have enough sense not to buy from him. Because of all the hear say going on. I don't have any test that have been run. I have called any one bud Allen a foul name. I just wanted to join the group of people warning about his deceitfulness. The rats were just an example.Some of you people are really hard to get along with. Even when a guy agrees with you you still hammer him. I thought I would post some things and get a feel for things. I see now I am dealing with the wrong people. Sorry I wasted your time and mine.

We're pretty easy to get along with , just have your ducks in a row when posting info. 3rd party info without a name is as much use here as it is floating in a septic tank. If you meant you were going by the posted test results you should've made that point clearer.

Maybe your animals are IBD clear, maybe you managed to move the IBD out of your collection before it spread to your animals. We'll never know, because you didn't do any worthwhile tests (if any at all) when the IBD positive boa WAS known to have passed through your hands....and all you'll perhaps be willing to do now is worthless testing as well.

Cat , can't test what got burned up in a fire. Not pointing fingers but for someone with a Million dollar collection for some reason doesn't happen to have a security system and apparently folks can walk up and set his buildings on fire willy nilly. It was awfully nice of them to time it with the original IBD outbreak.

 

[Cat_72]

Cat , can't test what got burned up in a fire. Not pointing fingers but for someone with a Million dollar collection for some reason doesn't happen to have a security system and apparently folks can walk up and set his buildings on fire willy nilly. It was awfully nice of them to time it with the original IBD outbreak.

Bryon, I wasn't even going to go there, but since you did........ And I'm not pointing any fingers either. Just amazed at what an amazing coincidence, and perhaps stroke of luck it was.........

 

[harveysherps]

We're pretty easy to get along with , just have your ducks in a row when posting info. 3rd party info without a name is as much use here as it is floating in a septic tank. If you meant you were going by the posted test results you should've made that point clearer./QUOTE]
I got you I can understand. I did take a cheap shot. I will admit that. But I felt justified. I will get permision from some of the individuals that I have spoke with.I just don't like dropping names with out giving a heads up. Don't want to throw them to the wolves LOL Without their permission. I know some of your aren't crazy about me. If I have affended any one besides Allen. I apologize for my ignorance. I am learning with each post how each one of you are. Gotta give a guy a chance to get the feel of things. I find you really find out how a person is when they are a little miffed. If I can get along with a person when they are a little ticked. Then we have no problems. I am not trying to ruin things here. I promise. I really like the heated discusions. That's when people get passionate about what they are doing and saying. It's just straight up in your face. You either take it or you don't. Beleive me I can take it. You guys are great. I hope to learn from all of you. Hail Hail to the WOLF PACK

 

[hhmoore]

I received an email from Allen requesting assistance in posting the faxed results of the testing. Upon my response, he sent the files...unfortunately, they are too big to just attach, and I am on my way out the door. (I also tried loading them into photobucket, but that didn't work.)

Sorry, Allen. I won't be home til morning & I'm not sure I will have time to mess with it then (early appt). I will make it work when I get a few minutes - which may be Friday morning - or you can try resizing them and attaching them, or sending them to somebody else.

 

[hhmoore]

fixed it while the dogs were out - hope they are big enough

 

[critical bill]

Thats a very small percentage of animals being tested for anyone with a documented case of IBD in his collection to state the collection is free of IBD. The results also do not state that these animals were tested at random. It may seem random given the stock numbers shown, however, how would anyone know that the vet staff weren't directed to those specific animals? I mean its not like the vet staff studied the entire collection for abnormalities and specifically chose those animals to collect samples from based on a sign of visible abnormality. I could hand a vet tech 6 of my healthiest animals and ask them to test them knowing full well that they are going to come back to me with a clean test. I'd say these result do not conclude anything but that his wild caught stock have parasites.

 

[hhmoore]

Of more interest to me is that there is no indication of what blood tests were performed...just that the results were normal.