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I'm having a HORRIBLE day...need more advice...

The main issue here seems to be that Anthony believes the package being late was to blame for the death of the snake.
This may be true, however in this situation, fault does not convey responsibility. It can just as easily be taken to the next level of thinking and say Anthony is at fault for using FedEx to begin with.
FedEx does not accept snakes period, let alone guarantee live arrival. By Anthony's decision to use this carrier he took the full burden of this responsibility upon himself. It makes no difference if the package was misrouted and took a week to arrive, the fault may lie with the carrier, but the responsibility lies solely with the shipper.

When using overnight carriers, as I do myself, the shipper must realize this responsibility. Many try to shirk this by including the clause "not responsible for carrier delays" in their terms. As far as I'm concerned this is nothing more that a pathetic attempt to avoid backing up what they sell when this situation arises.
If you don't want the repsonsibility of guaranteeing live arival under all circumstances, including carrier delay, then ship via air cargo only. Otherwise take responsibility for your choices as a shipper or don't ship live animals.
The customer is due either a full refund or replacement at no cost to him.

Clay Davenport
http://www.arbreptiles.com
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (jefjen @ Sep. 04 2002,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Damn,,Anthony,,,maybe you need to take a mini-vacation,,,sounds like you have had a rough week dude!!! Anyway,,,it is not your fault the animal died,,however,,it is your responsibility...I am sure that you will rectify this,,as you said you would...Next time,,put a cold pack in the box,,just to be safe...It is better for the animal to be high 60s,,than high 90s...Snakes canrecover from being too cold,,but its hard to recover from over-heating...I only ship U.P.S.((unless is a high dollar animal))and i have never had a problem with them((u.p.s.)) Take care of the problem,,and you will be well respected for it!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Thank you for taking notice that yesterday was probably no fun for me.

I've never had a problem with any animal I have ever sold, and then BAM! Yesterday was hell on wheels.    And, on top of all that, I'm in the middle of buying a house...and that's a pain too.

But, this is done.  As soon as I see a picture of the snake, I'm refunding the money, period, end of story.

As for all you self proclaimed "perfect" people who have so wisely pointed out that I had two problems yesterday.  Yes, Thank you all. I realize that, and I've taken responsibility by giving refunds to both parties, and have not ever told my customers that I would not.   I simply asked what you all thought about the situations.  

I'm really glad that the people who actually had money on the line here (my customers) were more understanding than you sorry sacks of goat manure.   And please, do me a favor and never ask to do business with me.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
 
Cost of doing business plain and simple Anthony.  If you are going to be a seller you have to back them 100%.  That means a cheerful full refund or a replacement animal at your complete expense (shipping included) no ifs, ands or buts.  

John Schmitt

Suncoast Herpetological
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Suncoast Herpetological @ Sep. 05 2002,13:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
OK, This is enough.

I wish you guys would read past the first three or four comments before you make a contribution.  I already said that I was planning on refunding the money.
 
Anthony,

You came to everyone here for information, and that is exactly what you have received. You comment </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm really glad that the people who actually had money on the line here (my customers) were more understanding than you sorry sacks of goat manure.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> was very childish and immature. You really should try to maintain a professional attitude no matter what.  I understand your upset that people keep posting their opinions but THAT IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR. (our opinions)
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rob @ RK Reptiles @ Sep. 05 2002,14:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anthony,

You came to everyone here for information, and that is exactly what you have received. You comment </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm really glad that the people who actually had money on the line here (my customers) were more understanding than you sorry sacks of goat manure.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> was very childish and immature. You really should try to maintain a professional attitude no matter what.  I understand your upset that people keep posting their opinions but THAT IS WHAT YOU ASKED FOR. (our opinions)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Rob,

My words were harsh, but in short, I'm not here to win a popularity contest among the ignorant.

When I say "ignorant", I am referring to those who don't have enough of an attention span to read the whole story before making attacks on my character.

Yes, I asked a question, meaning that I wanted people's input on the situation...not personal attacks on my character.  I took the input that I received and I did exactly what everyone here has recommended.

I believe that I've said enough about this.  Take it how you will.
 
Personally Anthony,
  I don't think anyone was attacking your character. I also recall reading that you were thinking that half of the money refunded to your customer would be enough and not that you intended on giving him a full refund. Everyone was just trying to help you out by telling you what they would do in your situation,which apeared to be what you were asking of everyone. Your post was very immature and will probably not win you any popularity contest. I would not do business with you with that attitude personally. I am sure you will have some words to say to me now, but choose them carefully. Remember other people are reading this too.
 
Anthony - Come on guy, you asked for advice and that's what you got !  Calling people manure isn't solving a thing.  Now since you walked into this one with one of your quotes, I've just got to take advantage of it to brighten your day

[And please, do me a favor and never ask to do business with me. ]

Now speaking for myself, I'm currently not in the market for purchasing deceased snakes there guy  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Later, Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (napavalleysnakes @ Sep. 05 2002,19:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anthony - Come on guy, you asked for advice and that's what you got !  Calling people manure isn't solving a thing.  Now since you walked into this one with one of your quotes, I've just got to take advantage of it to brighten your day

[And please, do me a favor and never ask to do business with me. ]

Now speaking for myself, I'm currently not in the market for purchasing deceased snakes there guy  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Later, Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Stephen-

Yes, I asked for advice.  I didn't ask to be attacked on a ethical level...in fact, the whole reason I asked is because I want to be fair.  If you can't understand that, go join the rest of the people in the manure category. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>  LOL (I'm trying to joke, yet make a point here.)

And really...Why are you making me spell this out?  

Nobody purchased a deceased snake. I said yesterday that the money will be refunded, and it will.

Please tell me.  What more can I do?
 
For someone who wanted advice on two different subjects you don't recieve it well.  By lashing out at people who are doing exactly what you asked of them you are showing your a** so to speak.  If you want to insult me you are more than welcome to because after reading your responses I could care less if you are a hobbyist or a breeder or dealer, either way I want nothing to do with you.  Next time you post and you are looking for advice do us all a favor and let us know in advance that you only want some of us to respond ... and don't forget to include a list of people so the wrong people don't accidentley reply to your specific post.  And by the way the manure thing .... wasn't funny, you have a poor sense of humor in my opinion.


Gary Walsch
Sunshine State Reptiles
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (kimtall @ Sep. 05 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally Anthony,
  I don't think anyone was attacking your character. I also recall reading that you were thinking that half of the money refunded to your customer would be enough and not that you intended on giving him a full refund. Everyone was just trying to help you out by telling you what they would do in your situation,which apeared to be what you were asking of everyone. Your post was very immature and will probably not win you any popularity contest. I would not do business with you with that attitude personally. I am sure you will have some words to say to me now, but choose them carefully. Remember other people are reading this too.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Kim,

You are being a little harsh, but your post has shown a level of common sense that some of the others were lacking.  


Here's why I think that you're being harsh.

I just presented the idea of giving half his money back.  I didn't actually say that half was all I was going to give him, and that's it.  It was just a thought.  Obviously, that's not what everyone here thought would be fair, and so I followed the advice I was given.  That is the precise reason why I asked.  

I didn't know that I was putting my head on the chopping block.   I was merely trying to ask fellow herpers, as "friends", what they thought of a certain situation, and then present certain scenarios.  

Anyway, like I said in the other post, I'll give you $100 if you can find one person who's ever had a less than ideal transaction with me.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I said yesterday that the money will be refunded, and it will.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>Well put and end of story.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please tell me.  What more can I do?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>Perhaps sacrificing your fisrt born son to the gods of FedEx.  Maybe a lock of hair for the voo doo doll we can make in your image.  Maybe even something in the line of goats, druids and a full moon.

Can someone pass me the shovel to dig my way out of this manure? <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Arboreals of the Rainforest @ Sep. 05 2002,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I said yesterday that the money will be refunded, and it will.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>Well put and end of story.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please tell me.  What more can I do?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>Perhaps sacrificing your fisrt born son to the gods of FedEx.  Maybe a lock of hair for the voo doo doll we can make in your image.  Maybe even something in the line of goats, druids and a full moon.

Can someone pass me the shovel to dig my way out of this manure? <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
LMAO! <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

It's just goat manure...they're like rabbit pellets.  Just wiggle a bit, and you should make it out OK.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Now I understand that you have refunded your customer's money (or you've decided to do so, i'm not certain which . . .too many posts), and my mama didn't raise me to be no goat roper, so I'm not in the manure pile.  However, I do a perspective to make it more clear to us all why it is that we breeders/hobbyists/enthusiats all are responsible for deaths even if the delivery was late because of FedEx or Airborne Express.

In reality, during the time tha they are delivering our packages, FedEx (airborne too) are the defacto employees of our organizations (whether it is a multi-employee operation, or a single enthusiast in his kitchen) and represent us so long as they are being paid by us to do a service for us while in the act of furthering our business.  If I hire a delivery boy to take my snakes to customers by car, and this kid runs over an old lady on the sidewalk, not only am I fresponsible for the snakes that died because the cops locked them up as evidence, but I am also on the hook for that lady's death in any kind of a monetary decision handed down by a civil court.  This is because an agent of a person carries with him the authority and the responsibility of the person for whom he is acting as agent.

So, when you hire FedEx to deliver your animals, you have appointed them as your agent in the forwarding of a sale.  So long as that animal is in the possession of you or one of your agents, you are responsible for its care.  The fact that oneof your agents is irresponsible in the carrying out of that duty in no way rellegates that responsibility or places it upon the shoulders of the buyer who never had possession of the snake or hired the agent in question.

However, let's say that you sell me a snake and want to ship it to me via USAir, but I cannot accept USAir at my airport. So, I say that I will accept the snake and have it shipped to myself via my own FedEx account.  Now, because the shipping was not of the method of your choosing, and I was the one to whom the agents of delivery were answering, I would say that an animal that died due to late delivery or mishandling would be my responsibility and not yours.

Hope this helps.  If it doesn't and anyone sees fit to be a smart aleck in their response, save it.  I've had my USDA recommended minimum daily allowance for the month.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
All right, that's what I like to see, everyone back to joking around and getting along again <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Anthony, as you can see, we're not such a bad group of people here on the board (or in person for that matter)..

Sounds like you're making the right decision and handling the issue the correct way.

Congrats and hope all works out..

Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
 
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