Import demand vs. in country production of normal babies??

[Robert Walker]

Like the title says, looking for any opinions or insight into why we need to still be importing normal babies from Africa to meet our nation's demand (referring at least to the USA & Canada)?

Don't we have enough in country breeders producing ball pythons to supply the demand chain with normals by now? Even taking into consideration pet supply box stores, I would figure someone would have cracked the code to supply them so they weren't sucking up wild caught/captive hatched babies.

Any idea on actual USA demand vs. production?
Even if every breeder sold their normals for $15 bucks, that would under cut the box stores by far.

Any thoughts??

 

[chrisis697]

I feel the same way about importing animals, but let's face it all its about is money. Someone just wants to have the next "first" when it comes to importing babies. That's my opinion but to each his own.

 

[Robert Walker]

Hi Chris - As far as morphs go, I get how that whole "morph" thing works out, being first etc. I'm mostly wondering why are we still importing "normal" wild type babies by the 1000's? Sure a morph or two might be sitting in 1 per 1000, but what about the other 999 "normal" babies?

The people who work at ball python "farms" are at least smart enough to do their best to weed out anything real cool.

When a purchaser from Petco/Petsmart orders a 1000 babies, he/she is not looking for the next hot morph, just a bunch of babies to mark up and sell, know what I mean??

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

If they would stop importing we could maybe sell our normals for a little more than we do

 

[RoyalPythonPros]

I only produced normals and pastels for years. I was selling normals for $50 and people would tell me that's too much. As soon as I directed them to the pet store and they saw the prices on theirs they always came back to me.

 

[Focal]

Last year a friend told me about a guy that supplies the local pet stores. These guys are great for turning over your norms and het males. You can wholesale them out which reduces private party sales that are usually cheap and decrease the value of norms. This pushes more norms to pet store prices and reduces the cheaper availability, not to mention its easier for me to find them all new homes. Most people looking for norms are not going to shop online, but stumble into a pet store. I think if more people saught out this option, it would tighter up demand for importers that are asking competitive prices for snakes that won't eat and/or die. The new guy or gal that gets a healthy, eating norm from a pet store is most likely to enjoy the hobby and expand into morphs. Lots of win-wins this way but I'm sure there is something I'm missing

 

[hhmoore]

We don't NEED to import them. Period.

We DO import them because they are are cheap and in high demand....and because they are being exported. I very much doubt people here will stop bringing them in, unless/until Africa makes the decision to stop, or limit, exportation. Of course, it is a much needed source of revenue there; so as long as things are handled responsibly (with respect to maintaining the wild population), it isn't likely to happen.

 

[Robert Walker]

If they would stop importing we could maybe sell our normals for a little more than we do

Agreed... a little bit more.

I only produced normals and pastels for years. I was selling normals for $50 and people would tell me that's too much. As soon as I directed them to the pet store and they saw the prices on theirs they always came back to me.

Yep, I have seen the same thing too.

Last year a friend told me about a guy that supplies the local pet stores. These guys are great for turning over your norms and het males. You can wholesale them out which reduces private party sales that are usually cheap and decrease the value of norms. This pushes more norms to pet store prices and reduces the cheaper availability, not to mention its easier for me to find them all new homes. Most people looking for norms are not going to shop online, but stumble into a pet store. I think if more people saught out this option, it would tighter up demand for importers that are asking competitive prices for snakes that won't eat and/or die. The new guy or gal that gets a healthy, eating norm from a pet store is most likely to enjoy the hobby and expand into morphs. Lots of win-wins this way but I'm sure there is something I'm missing

GREAT ideas and system you have in place. If I could now find our local distributor to the pet stores, your method makes solid logical sense for all parties, except the exporters.

We don't NEED to import them. Period.

We DO import them because they are are cheap and in high demand....and because they are being exported. I very much doubt people here will stop bringing them in, unless/until Africa makes the decision to stop, or limit, exportation. Of course, it is a much needed source of revenue there; so as long as things are handled responsibly (with respect to maintaining the wild population), it isn't likely to happen.

It is sad to me, but I agree with your thoughts...no end in sight for the import/export of them. Even if we could produce enough to satisfy the demand here locally, I'm not sure we could match the prices of the exporters. A dollar here is a value menu item at McDonalds, over there in Africa it could be a weeks wage.


Thanks to everyone for your comments thus far. Part of my question stems from my frustration in the fact that at least in "my mind" I picture ball python farms in Africa more like poaching facilities versus a BHB set up here in the states. It may be a form of income for them and their government, but it just feels wrong some how. If someone told me that Ball Pythons are the equivalent of a garter snake (volume wise...every where) in Africa then perhaps I might feel a little better. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Robert Walker]

Africa will never stop exporting. The farming of ball pythons funds their preservation efforts.

Luke, the preservation of what species? Ball pythons or wildlife in general?

 

[NorthernRegius.com]

Our 1st Ball Python was a normal from a pet-store. They used to buy the lots because they were "cheap". Our 1st snake is alive today because we got a fecal done at the vet & had his parasites treated. He's an amazing snake & why we got into BPs. But sadly, most of his buddies died. For the store & the people who bought them it was heart-breaking.

The first thing I did BEFORE I started breeding was to ensure I had pet-stores lined up for my normal babies. I am not a warehouse sized facility & I like keeping my number here under 100. PLUS I wanted the stores to have healthy CB babies to sell so other folks could have a good pet.

So my reason for getting into breeding is upside down compared to many. But I did need morphs that other folks, who wanted to do more with the species, would buy too. Since pricing normal babies at a good price to the shops pretty much meant I'd make no profit on them, I needed a few morphs to cover their costs.

My goal was to wholesale my normal babies to responsible pet-stores so we'd both benefit. At first it was only a few, here & there, but because I get them feeding so well & they are CB with no issues, I can't keep up with the demand. I now breed a few extra clutches just for stores & I even make a few bucks from the babies too as the shops prefer my snakes & most have stopped with the "lot" babies altogether.

It's not the fast track, but I'm happy to feel I've made the breed better for my efforts. Over the years, my collection has a nice variety, the animals pay for themselves & I even make a bit above costs. I hope more stores do look to us breeders as time goes on.

 

[Robert Walker]

Deb - sounds like you have a well thought out plan and system - congrats and good job imo

http://www.faunaimportuk.com/caresheets/royal_python.htm

Luke - thanks for the link! The overall article is an interesting read, even if it is a warm and fuzzy PR piece by an exporter.

Some highlights I got from it:

1. The tax system supposedly in place: "There is also a charge made by the Wildlife Department for collection and releasing the females after oviposition,"

Is this a nice way of saying, find them in the wild, take their babies, then set them free again

2. Their estimated population margin seems extremely wide: "The estimated wild population in Ghana is 6 to 18 million with 9 – 14 million hatching each year."

These numbers mean the ball python population is possibly doubling every year. At this rate Ghana has no choice but to export for fear of being over run by ball pythons

3. Lastly I liked the following: "Wild collected Royal Pythons don’t do well in captivity and are very hard to get feeding, don’t buy adult or juvenile wild collected Royal Pythons"

Thanks again Luke for the link! Even if this group is supposedly trying to be responsible and buying from a country who is trying to be responsible, the end consumers or local pets store have no idea where they really came from. Collect them in Togo & Benin, and stamp Ghana on the crate.

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

Just can't believe they are overrun with Ballpythons ? And a third world country being responsible with their wildlife ?

 

[darkbloodwyvern]

Just can't believe they are overrun with Ballpythons ? And a third world country being responsible with their wildlife ?

African has RATS RATS RATS and more RATS!! Predator species like wolves, lions, tigers and SNAKES tend to explode when their food source is readily available. Look at coyotes. When jackrabbit populations boom, the yotes will go from having 3-5 pup litters to over ten. They will also start having more litters per year if the boom keeps up. The farmers in areas where snakes live do not have the money to get good pest control, so they would be overrun with rodents if they didn't let the snakes do their thing. It used to be that they would kills snakes in case they were venemous, but a lot of people have been educated or learned on their own the value of snakes, especially ones like BPs. Balls never kill people with venom or by being gigantic enough to harm a human seriously and that is a huge score in their favor.
In recent years and the past, Africa has been THE place to see and hunt exotic species. I read a book about chimps that mentioned a man who was born in the 1900's and was raised from a young age to help the big game hunters and became an amazing crack shot. His job changed from helping track and shoot animals to tracking and shooting poachers. Apparently, it wasn't that difficult of a switch, either! Human life is cheaper than animal life these days in many of these countries. Yes, there is still rampant destruction of territory and slaughter of all kinds of animal species. But the locals have been learning that a tourist will spend insane (especially for them) amounts of money to simply look at some animal that is technically in their backyard. If a dude wanted to pay me 1,000 to look at the cows near my house for a few hours, I would think he was nuts, but I wouldn't turn it down, either!! I would probably also start taking a much bigger interest in how to attract other people to my fabulous cow land, wouldn't you?

I'm not saying there aren't issues with importing, hunting or managing wildlife in Africa or any other country, but it's actually not as dire as you may think. The people DO know where they money comes from and I think they are pretty happy to not kill the golden goose.

 

[Robert Walker]

I'm not saying there aren't issues with importing, hunting or managing wildlife in Africa or any other country, but it's actually not as dire as you may think. The people DO know where they money comes from and I think they are pretty happy to not kill the golden goose.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Yes, I would help people come see my cow for $1,000 a visit too. A little off subject (different species). About killing the golden goose, just watched a 60minutes or 20/20 about poaching elephants in Africa. The government estimates 25,000-35,000 killed elephants last year alone for tusks. So while those involved with eco tourism don't kill the golden goose, others still do for other reasons. While a farmer might let ball pythons roam in peace and eat all the rats they want, the ball python farmers/collectors have other motives with their golden goose.

 

[Dale Porcher DVM]

Ball Pythons

I'm sorry but I simply cannot conceive of how exporting gravid females, catching gravid females and then exporting their progeny by the tens of thousands is being a good steward of the land. We all know that in captivity under ideal conditions that it takes 2-3 years for a female to hit reproductive maturity and they only lay 4-10 eggs once yearly. I simply do not believe that this type of reproduction can withstand this type of poaching pressure. In my opinion the fact that females can be productive for up to 20-30 years is the only thing that is saving them. No normal Ball Pythons need to be exported when breeders here in the US are willing to sell their normals as surplus for $15. I also would not support anyone who imports normal gravid females .

 

[GREGORY J HALL]

Safari and collecting ball pythons are two different things south africa is a long way from Ghana Africa is a political and dangerous place,big game hunting is always good for a species poaching is not hunters care about their game poachers want money.Gravid females I dont agree with that but as of now legal.The ball python is now domestcated in my eyes by just mutations