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In need of opinions...

morph-crazy Yanks

I have 8 year old lizards that are still reproductive and active. I think the biggest thing Svee hits on is the protean issue.

Are you affiliated with University of Pennsylvania Vet school? Just curious, non offensive question.

Do you of any genetic studies on bearded dragons that were ever done?

What's going on with the crypto thing ? any new news?

chad
 
U of P

I used to be affiliated with Penn, I was a surgical vet tech from 1985 through 2000. So I wasn't all that aware of research due to being a "cutter geek". I do know there is some work being done on genetics because I donated one of my hatchlings to them, she died of an optic nerve tumor which was found to be not genetic in origin, just an overgrowth of myelin. It did compress brain tissue though and caused failure to thrive, probably because of pituitary gland problems.

The folks at Penn do comment regularly on how very shallow the gene pool is, though. It's roughly 100 animals that comprise the parent group for almost of the beardies currently in the US, not accounting for breeders smuggled into the country. They don't think this is either natural or good for the species. Dragon sizes and health are on a steady decline over the years and life expectancies are getting less and less.

On a busy week there, the clinic sometimes saw over 1,000 beardies that needed surgery, although that was between 20 to 80 doctors depending on how many residents were currently there. I usually only assisted in about 5 beardie cases a week and far more cases of other species. More iguanas and snakes, and far more birds and "pocket pet" mammals than either of those. One of my favorite docs was a bowel specialist so I did a whole slew of impaction, prolapse and bowel resection surgeries with him, nearly 10,000 cases over the course of the 12 years we worked together.

Penn also runs 2 Humane Society surgical clinics and I mostly worked at the Delaware County Humane Society under the direction of Penn vets. I still did mostly exotics because the 3 docs I had the best working relationships with were all exotic specialists. The bowel specialist volunteered there every Saturday so I did too.

I'm still in touch with my 3 favorite docs, in fact Mark Lindsey comes to my house at least 2 Mondays a month for dinner and to do a health check on my animals. He's bringing his portable xray this coming Monday because my 9 month old female laid 3 infertile eggs a few days ago and I want to make sure she passed them all. With so few eggs, her belly never bulged and I had no idea she was gravid until I saw her laying the eggs.
 
Chad, you actually made an interesting point whether you realized it or not.



Everyone seem to forget that as-few-as 3or4 years ago bearded were eather NORMALS or REDxGOLDS.
Click to expand...

There were more morphs out there than just those, however, there HAS been a massive increase over the last 3 years in particular in color morphs of beardeds(especially with the appearance of the first albinos last year). Isn't it true that the shallower the gene poll, the more anomalies beging to appear in it over a shorter period of time? You will actually see this with many of the Australian herps we are working with in the United States. Albino Knob-tail Geckos and Velvet Geckos began cropping up relatively early in their captive history in the US. I believe this is in direct correlation with a very shallow gene pool. And also if you look at Knob-tails over the years, you will notice that now they seem to be overall more frail than just a few years ago. The color morphs available(albinos for instance) often have gross defects that keep them from surviving for more than a few days(albinos often hatch out blind or have to be kept in total darkness to keep their retinas from being damaged). The Velvet Gecko morphs seem hardier, but I think it's only a matter of time for them as well.

And yes, Daniel, god forbid, a whole YEAR?!?!?! Got any of those adult breeder females available? ;)
 
here's a story for you

I reciently fond a female dragon that had passed. She was in the water bowl under water. Cold to the touch rig had started to set in. I'm the sick kind of herper tyhat cuts open every thing that dies at my place. so, I cut here open found 24 good eggs 7 bad eggs. Put her in a RM (we going to show the vet her inside's) placed her on top of the freezer. The phone rang on thing lead to another and I didn't get back til'the next day. She's in the RM trying to get out. I stiched her up put back in a cage and she ate feed and lived for 17 days.

Is this a freeky story or what....
 
Morphs Robert

Robert how many distinct genetic morphs do you thin there are?I think there are.............

German Giants

RedxGolds--these are were I think all the color morphs come from

Luctics(sp)-- Yes I think this is something different.

Normals-- If you know anyones that still breeds normals I want some (serious)

Do you know of any others?
 
Actually, 3 and 4 years ago, there was a lot more color than just those...
Look at the old Bearded Dragon manual copyrighted in 1997--there are a ton of different morphs pictured--and most of those were just from one collection. 9 years ago, there were many morphs on the market--they were just not as coloful as the morphs today. For example, I have a 9 year old "orange phase" who was supposed to be pretty stunning, that looks pretty normal, just has a bright orange beard. The early sandfires that I have also are not as "screaming" as the ones you get today--they were a little more genetically diverse back then. Even dragons from 1 year ago were a lot duller than the ones you see today.
I will tell you that my older dragons seem a lot more hardy and are much better breeders than ones I have picked up more recently. It does seem, the more color, the more "issues" with certain exceptions. Yellows seem to do better, and that coral male I have is a maniac--but he was a fluke from a no-name snake breeder that I had never heard of or seen since. But his babies have grown to 12 inches in 3 months. And he is 21 inches now--I suspect he'll get a little bigger.
As for genetic studies, well, there are not that many studies on dragons period. The most extensive genetic studies have really been done by breeders. I think there are quite a number of genes that have been isolated by breeders.

Eyespy--no, it wasnt giardia--it was a very long name--that I repeated twice and then forgot--LOL. The pathologist said it was rare and hard hitting like salmonella.

I agree again--the more diversity we can get into the lines, the better for the future. I still do think that there have been illegal beardies brought in. I know for a fact about illegal australian frillies, so I am sure people have smuggled dragons. I even had a customer talk to me about having friends in the airline business and what would I pay for a WC beardie--no joke. I'm sure someone took him up on the offer. And I'm sure it is not the first time. The biggest problem with inbreeding I think, is the demand for it with high color--or consistant color (red x red, orange x orange, "pure sandfire" etc)--and the whole color that "breeds true". Otherwise I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot less problems.

Dana
 
On the Albinos, they were actually bred in Australia, and died before reaching adulthood due to a neighbor's liberal use of pesticide.

Chad, I breed normals. My best female gave seven clutches last year, at about 25 eggs per clutch, with 3 infertile on average.
 
Twins

I just want to set a few facts straight. We (Tom and Jackie Vandiver) do not inbreed our bearded dragons.

We get dragons from all over and do our best to NOT inbreed. We have bred no brothers and sisters, no parents to child and not even grandparent to grandchild. And to the best of our knowledge no cousins have bred. We have gotten a lot of bearded dragons from Bob Mailoux (The Sandfire Dragon Ranch), sandfires, sandfire crosses and pastels. We have bought from him in three different years. We also got some from Kevin Dunne in California on several occasions and some from a breeder in Florida. We also have gotten bearded dragons from Kansas City, Mo, New York, Iowa, Nebraska, and St. Louis just to name a few other locations. We have done our best to acquire many different colorful bearded dragons from many different locations and breeders just so we don’t have to inbreed to get colorful dragons. We breed for healthy dragons first then for color. We have never bred a Sandfire to a Sandfire or a Blood to a Blood or a hypo or pastel to hypo or pastel from the same location.

And we were told from a very qualified and well-known reptile vet (Dan Wentz) who also breeds and studies reptiles, which include bearded dragons, that twins or Siamese twins are not a result of inbreeding. In fact twins and Siamese twins is not considered a deformity. We have had two other sets of twins before these Siamese twins, from different parents and none of the parents are even remotely (well remotely) but not known to be related and not any were obtained from the same breeder.

You don’t have to be brothers and sisters or cousins to have twins. My daughter has two sets of twins and she did NOT marry a relative.
 
I do not know of anyone who has ever accused you (Tom and Jackie) of inbreeding your dragons.
Twins are a genetic trait, that, I think, is outside the inbreeding discussion. In humans, if one parent is a twin or has a history of twins in the family, it is highly likely that they will give birth to twins. I do not know much of anything about siamese twins.
dana
 
Re: Twins

[You don’t have to be brothers and sisters or cousins to have twins. My daughter has two sets of twins and she did NOT marry a relative. [/B][/QUOTE]

Must be something in the water there:')
 
It was, in fact, my post that may have sounded like an implication, and in retrospect, was not as well thought out as it should have been. I was trying to point out the growing number of oddities in the Beareded population here in the states. I'm sorry if it seemed to imply that I thought the Vandivers were inbreeding, as I do not think so.

It was more of a statement on the general shallowness of the bearded genepool in this country.
 
Shallow is correct, even with the biggest numbers I have heard, after a few generations, it would be almost impossible for cousins not to be being breed to each other outside of Austrailia. Even getting them from many locations in the US or Europe, they would have to be related, unless someone has smuggled out more.

I think what your trying to say, or I am hearing is that as more generations share the same ancestry without any trace of unrelated blood, more problems are surfacing. When that is combined with breeding daughter to father or siblings to get the screaming colors, its a potential for disaster I have one GG female that is a Europe/US cross, another that is a male GG breed by closely traced lines going back several generation. Both are wonderfully heathly and never had a problem, 600+ grams and stocky and longer than average, gold colors, and seem far more intelligent than the beautiful red sandfire I have or the other 8 normals/high colors.

The Sandfire has a host of problems, is small but eats well and has a problem processing calcium. He does not have MBD, we've had him x-rayed and blood panels, but the calcium settles in the joints of his hands, similar to gout, but with calcium instead of Uric acids. Our Vets thinks it is caused by inbreeding. Of the ones I have, all from different locations and breeders, only two females would I even think about breeding and only with one of the males we have.... the others are and will be pampered pets, as their genes should not continue, they are not my idea of strong, healthy lines and even though beautiful and would produce colorful babies, its not worth it to me or them.

Too many people are breeding just because they have a male and female, with no background history or concern for the future health of the offspring, I commend breeders that are closely watching those lines and trying to diversify as much as possible. I also think with the proven history of health of the GG line, crossing this into normals is a good move, but what do we do when that one too is exhausted?
 
Tom, Relax. This was just a discussion on bearded dragon breeding overall and not an attack on anyone.

I agree that the increase in "oddities" is a sign that the genetic pool is not deep enough.

I personally feel that the dragon market is going to bottom out this year and maybe that will slow down the rapid decline in health. A "newbie" grabbing two dragons from the same breeder to produce babies which are weaker than the previous generation does little to rectify the existing situation. If there is not a "quick buck" to be made this won't continue to happen (as much) and we can buttress up our gene pool by outcrossing with "normals" and the GG lines.
 
Re: crypto-- no news isn't good news

What's going on with the crypto thing ? any new news?

chad
Click to expand...

Sorry, Chad, I was so busy running off to my little football party that I forgot to answer that one.

I've walked away in disgust from trying to convince the CDC and the FWS that there are significant concerns. Fish and Wildlife says that unless the CDC rules there is a danger to people they have no jurisdiction to investigate and certainly no power to block potentially ill animals from entering the country. I haven't been able to get any further on that issue.

CDC wants good samples for molecular testing, but they will only test fecals from animals that have already been diagnosed with crypto and there is also a human illness suspected. Otherwise they cannot work with samples from animals. It's outside their jurisdiction.

I only knew of one such case, and those animals have been dead for over 6 months. Slides were never saved, let alone preserved properly. In the case of the dead animals, they were already dead for 2-3 weeks when the child got sick, so serology and ELISA immunoassay were done on the cadavers rather than fecal testing and those are not admissible tests per CDC criteria. The CDC sent me a form letter via email from a Mary Shepherd stating it appears to be an isolated case and is an issue for local health officials and/or the state vet.

I' m aware of 9 other cases of dragons from the same mass breeder that have crypto but no human has gotten so much as a bellyache. There are plenty of other dragons that just have a diagnosis of coccidia and when I try to find out what type, cannot get any further answer, just "we don't isolate the type of coccidia, just diagnose coccidia and give Albon." So I don't have any samples that meet the criteria for testing.

It seems I'm stuck. I'll continue to warn people that there is a slight potential for zoonotic transmission of crypto just like there is with salmonella and advise strict hygiene precations. I've always been an advocate for a 90 day quarantine with new animals and now there's even more reason to recommend that. Other than that I'm not sure that this one little person is going to get much more done. :(
 
can o worms

GENETIC CAN O WORMS
eye spy
Q}To be honest with you none of us really knows about the genetic diversity of the captive population. To my knowlege I have never heard of anyone that did a genetic study on bearded dragons.

i cant ignore that eye! im sure if you looked to the country of their origin youll find some pretty good info written over the last few decades..tho i did read {MK again!} that we only have ONE reputable author..named Eric Worrell..who wrote a book in the 60s. he opened the Gosford Reptile Park..and was an excellent man, but not our best author. i suggest always..the Melbourne University Herpetology Departmant Database. or the MacQuarie University.
or book stores! also for visual as well. try steve parish ..he gives information youd really have to search around for and excellent photographs.

Q}Everyone seem to forget that as-few-as 3or4 years ago bearded were eather NORMALS or REDxGOLDS. The normals produced (for Me) 30-40 eggs per clutch. The REDxGolds (for me) produced 18-24 eggs per clutch.
I see a direct correlation between the desire to produce color where we breed more and more color into our normal dragons.

a normal yield here for every bearded species i know of is 30 eggs.
yes..it must be related..as is the size and life span...plus disease and weaknesses.

now, the vitticeps thing... they are the only Pogona that will 'lose colour' this is enhanced by inbreeding..which is what the US has been forced into with such a small population as the motherlode. theyre not as easy to get as easterns..therefore theres not been a lot of breeding with them. this is also why you have morphed commercially and we dont. and they also have a wider range of phasing than the other species of similar size Pogona barbatas.. they can go from pale pale grey {with no sign of ochre} to black as pitch. the minor species havent been mentioned in anything ive read.
im pretty sure i just repeated myself from another post... but thats not plagiarism! so everythings ok. Svee
 
Q}And to the best of our knowledge no cousins have bred. We have gotten a lot of bearded dragons from Bob Mailoux (The Sandfire Dragon Ranch), sandfires, sandfire crosses and pastels. We have bought from him in three different years.
tom.... ive looked at Bob Mailloux and his breeding practises and i class him as the top breeder in the states.. hes made excellent progress. thats a great thing. and you do well to not inbreed. really the gene pool is 'babyend' shallow.
i do believe our country should release more to the US for breeding purposes.

also, ive seen twins from CBs. its rare but not classed as a deformity or abnormal. any species that can produce twins has the risk of siamese occuring. Svee
 
pennebaker

Pennebaker,
thanks so much for your post. ive been having all my breeding questions answered. the whole thing has almost been a 'serendipity' ... finding these pretty dragons, that were so colourful compared to ours - when i already thought that beardeds were a fascinating species. and then finding they can be bred naturally to achieve that. its nice to take in your info and .. well it all computes.

I still do think that there have been illegal beardies brought in. so I am sure people have smuggled dragons. I even had a customer talk to me about having friends in the airline business and what would I pay for a WC beardie--no joke. I'm sure someone took him up on the offer. And I'm sure it is not the first time

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Oh no!
it would be nice to think that people wouldnt be tempted seeing all these little $ signs running round in the form of wild beardeds {+ others} but thats unlikely, humans are involved here! if only they were ending up in the right hands. are they taken to a zoo or facility if theyre siezed? the more seizures the better if thats the case.

The most extensive genetic studies have really been done by breeders. I think there are quite a number of genes that have been isolated by breeders.

i agree.
Svee.
 
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