inbreeding *POLL*

[diablohogs]

im curious what the general sensus is on inbreeding. also i would imagine that there is a difference in opinion as to what constitutes inbreeding.

so heres a poll.

 

[Chris@TSE]

You forgot the poll

 

[diablohogs]

no. its there. one correction though...

it supposed to say "i wont buy albinos OR fancy morphs..."

 

[A_Kendergirl]

I think that by the time you are seeing physical defects, it's gone WAY to far. Who knows what's going on in the inside of these little guys before we start seeing the physical traits of inbreeding.

 

[AquamanX]

I don't breed Geckos. But, If I did, I wouldn't Inbreed them. I think it's wrong no matter what the animal is. Although I bet my Blizzard or Albino are part of someones Inbreeding Project.

Steve X.

 

[robin d.]

i couldnt exactly pick one... the closest i saw was

outcross siblings to nonrelated mates in order to preserve genetic diversity.

and

only when phisical defects occur do i feel the need to outcross.

i feel that inbreeding is okay to a degree however when you start hatching out defects... the animals need stop being bred, start over or something but i also think sibs should be outcrossed as well. and i am a firm believer that new gene pools are essential for stronger animals so when you have a new line of unrelated stock breed it into your current stock to strengthen it, actually i think thats the key.

 

[Jim O]

I don't breed Geckos. But, If I did, I wouldn't Inbreed them. I think it's wrong no matter what the animal is.

Steve,

I respectfully disagree. Not all "inbreeding" (outside of Appalachia) has deleterious effects. Virtually all US Bredl's Pythons are from two lines, Casey Lazik's and Doug Price's. Casey supposedly started with four animals and Doug started with exactly two (I have spoken with him directly about this). So basically all "Price line" Bredl's are descended from that one pair and are therefore related and highly inbred. There are thousands and thousands of Bredl's in the US, all descended from 6 founders, all highly inbred, and rarely are deformities seen. That is not to say that it doesn't happen, as with the eye deformities being seen in Boas, but to say that it is always wrong is just a bit of an overstatement.

How many people have started an insect colony with just a few founders? Are their roaches or whatever they are producing deformed? Probably not.

Line breeding for non-Mendelian traits is quite common in herpetoculture. I select my breeders for nicest color, temperament, size, etc, and breed them back to each other. Outcrossing would defeat that purpose. That isn't to say that adding new blood to a line, when appropriate is not beneficial. It may be at times for aesthetic and genetic reasons. But not necessarily.

I'm not defending inbreeding, just pointing out that it happens all the time in the animal world in insular populations and in captive breeding programs and most species do OK.

 

[hill4803]

I buy many of my breeders young and from different sources. I go out of my way to make sure siblings never breed. On my offspring, I make sure I know which parents it came from and make sure those offspring aren't bred to any others from that line. The closest to inbreeding of my geckos is 1/2 cousins! If the lines are outcrossed at least every other generation and offspring with deformities are never bred, I don't think there is too much of an issue with inbreeding herps. But I have 2 brothers and i grew up with all of my cousins so the thought of inbreeding my own animals just grosses me out ...just a personal choice!

 

[WiteLeo]

I only go as far as parents to children. I think its a good idea to bring in some new genes every year.

Im going to stop with that being said, before this turns into something like a "sand or Paper towel" thread.

 

[Gregg M]

I dont think I can pic any of those choices..... I do believe that inbreeding is ok to a point..... If you think about it, in isolated populations in the wild, there is a fair amount of inbreeding in many reptilian species..... There is such a thing called locality spacific recessive traits..... This is where a recessive gene becomes the dominant form in an isolated population..... For whatever reason the recessive gene works out better than the normal wild type..... As you all know, in order for a recessive gene to pop up, there needs to be some level of inbreeding.....

I think the problems some people have with inbreeding reptiles stems from their own personal morals and not the real science or nature behind it...... We need to remember that reptiles are not people and they do not thrive by our morals or religious beliefs......

On the same token, I believe that inbreeding can go too far and you will see problems if too many generations that are closely related......

There are way too many gray areas in this topic to actually go with one particular answer....

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Now there is something I can agree with, Gregg. The problem is knowing when you've reached the "too many generations" mark.

 

[hill4803]

Going back to Gregg's remarks, MOST recessive traits are not desirable or beneficial for the organism. That is why in nature most organisms that are homozygous for a recessive trait generally don't fair too well and won't be able to pass those traits on. Hets, however, fair better...but everyone knows what happens when you breed hets together 1 out of 4 have the recessive phenotype (statistically speaking). There are lots of traits that an animal might have and the breeder does't know about until they breed to close and the recessive (& in SOME cases) bad traits start showing up. That is my reason for not inbreeding, I don't know every gene a particular gecko has and I am not willing to gamble that undesirable genes aren't there just so I can get a "prettier gecko". I can breed unrelated geckos to get what I want. It may take longer and maybe I never will get exactly what I want, but such is the way of life!

 

[diablohogs]

i tried to predict the different responces to this question and maybe left a few possibilities out. sorry guys.

i personally believe in a parallel linebreeding method which consists of buying or producing two nice siblings and then crossing them to unrelated ( as nice or better) stock and then backcrossing the two lines together to create f2. i feel that this method is the most responsible way to linebreed but i also realize that in some eyes this can be considered inbreeding. i mean you are crossing cousins, basically.

as far as breeding offspring to thier parents, or offspring to offspring... unless you are trying to prove something out genetically, i feel like this is a bad choice. but if you do i feel like you should outcross in the f2 to add genetic diversity.

i beleive the only reason weve gotten away with inbreeding in leopard geckos for so long is because the different subspecies and localities have been breed together from the begining, providing us with an extremely varied gene pool but i do feel this will eventually be a problem.

just look at albino hognose. some are born with what i refer to as "twisty neck" where the snake looks like hes trying to roll over with the front half of his body constantly. blindness has also been rumored to be present within albino hogs as well. a great example of an animal that is now being outcrossed to hopefully take away certain genetic defects because the original albinos were inbred to much.

eventually in every animal you will see detrimental effects caused from inbreeding. its our responsibility to develop breeding methods that involve outcrossing or we will be sorry in the long run...(i.m.o.)

 

[Milwaukee Reptiles]

Personally, I try to keep inbreeding down to a mimimum. I take more care in some morphs than others (LVPA for example), because some of these morphs have been inbred quite a bit in the US captive population. A look at kinked tails in LVPAs should indicate that more inbreeding has been done there than in other morphs.

Other than that, I think I would go about 2-3 generations before I would start introducing new blood (I've actually been indtroducing new blood each year to mine, but it's a hypothetical).

And I agree that when you start to see deformities (kinked tails, missing eyelids, ect), it's usually WAY past the point where it should have stopped. Not always, but usually. There are other factors that play on deformities, but if it's genetic then It likely went a few generations too many.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

inbreeding?

i personally believe in a parallel linebreeding method which consists of buying or producing two nice siblings and then crossing them to unrelated (as nice or better) stock and then backcrossing the two lines together to create f2.

I'm glad we agree on this subject, Chad!

 

[Gregg M]

MOST recessive traits are not desirable or beneficial for the organism. That is why in nature most organisms that are homozygous for a recessive trait generally don't fair too well and won't be able to pass those traits on. Hets, however, fair better...

This is very true Ro..... I was just giving one side of natural inbreeding in the wild.....

You make a very good point for the other side.....

 

[hill4803]

Did Gregg and I just AGREE on something?

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Did Gregg and I just AGREE on something?

LOL!

I totally agree with Chad....I also feel parallel line breeding is the most responsible way to go. I feel it puts a comfortable outcrossed genetic cushion between the 2nd gens that will be breed together, yet are genetically linked at the same time.

 

[Gregg M]

Did Gregg and I just AGREE on something?

Come on now Ro, there is only one subject you and I do not see eye to eye on..... I have learned not to battle over that with you anymore...... I guess I met my equal when it comes to arguing..... LOL

 

[KelliH]

Outcrossing bloodlines is extremely important. I try to buy male tang/ct's unrelated to my line every other year. I have always been big on outcrossing all the recessive traits. Outcrossing = improving IMO.