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Inbreeding = weaker species?

X

Xelda

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There is an article in the August issue of Reptiles Magazine that discusses herp morphs. Bert Langerwerf from Agama International brought up that he doesn't like color morphs because "In general, it is achieved by inbreeding, and gradually this will create weaker animals."

Well, that sounds pretty logical to me.

Does anyone worry about this in leos? What are the possible detrimental effects of inbreeding, and what effects are we already seeing?
 
Well I'm not really very experienced with leos...but from what I've seen one large effect of inbreeding is kinked tails. The problem with inbreeding (and to a lesser extent line-breeding) is that it brings out hidden recessive traits...which can be good...that's how we perpetuate morphs...however it brings out detrimental traits as well...in dogs hip dysplasia is a result of inbreeding and linebreeding, and now ther is no way to get rid of it in the breeds that have it (it can be reduced...but never fully eradicated). Since the detrimental genes can be hidden though, its impossible to predict what might pop up to cause problems.
 
I have said it before...

there is too much inbreeding done. I understand people want the "new morph" whatever it may be, but the downside is the problems we are starting to see now...babies born with missing parts and other malformations. I also think people are buying geckos and just breeding them because they think there is a lot of money to be made. They are buying several geckos from the same breeder or petstore & breeding them without realizing that the geckos may be closely related. It still pisses me off when I read a post from someone who has a sick gecko or is asking very general questions (they should already know) about the care of geckos & then mentioning that they are going to breed the geckos. If you don't know their general care requirements, then you really have no business breeding them! Man, I always get fired up about this subject.
 
Man, I always get fired up about this subject.
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Q's are good.
I believe people have good intentions when it comes to keeping and breeding anything.
Now there are "some" people out there who don't give a flying flip about the health of their animals, and the bottom line is the $$.
I think that if a person wants to breed Leos, he/she should understand the basics of general care, not breeding as of yet.
Breeding knowledge can and will come later. It's ok if the person doesn't know what the incubation temps are, or the weights of animals before breeding, that can come with questions from the people who have been there and done that.
I bought 4 Leos with very little knowledge above their general care req's, and am breeding them as we speak. I just made sure to ask alot of q's.
Do I want to make some money while I'm having fun? Heck yeah!
There's nothing better than making $$ doing something you really like to do.

There isn't much that suprises me anymore when I hear of the horror stories and see pictures of sick animals. To me that is just a pure lack of knowledge and not asking questions before they got into a certain species.
 
i've noticed actually it seems like the people that buy and sell are the ones that normally have neglected animals because neglected breeders wont breed normally.
 
True. The more stressed the animal, the less likely it is to breeding.
 
Inbreeding

I am one breeder who does NOT line-breed because I feel that I have a professional and ethical obligation to ensure the quality and genetic strength of the species. I selectively out-cross by taking into consideration the combined physical attributes and genetic lines of my adults in order to produce beautiful, healthy offspring. This does not mean I am passing judgement on those that do line-breed, nor does it mean I don't appreciate the work that goes in to developing new morphs.

I feel that kinked tails in patternless, aggressive dispositions in blizzards, and many other genetic faults are a result of irresponsible inbreeding. Will I ever develop a new morph? Nope. Will I ever become rich and famous? Nope. Do I have lovely, healthy leopard geckos? Yup!
 
i've noticed actually it seems like the people that buy and sell are the ones that normally have neglected animals because neglected breeders wont breed normally.
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wtf? are you trying to say that people who sell thier geckos only sell the ones that are neglected or in poor mental/phisical health??

thats ridiculous. if i sell an adult its because i know that it has produced an animal that would make a nicer breeder and that gecko (males typically) no longer has room in my collection.

im limited on space. if it were up to me i would keep every gecko i have.

to make the assumption that the only reason someone would sell one of thier animals is because there is something wrong with it is completely ridiculous.
 
If I'm trying to breed for a trait, I want to have at least 3 groups of the same project, and then you can breed between the groups and avoid inbreeding. Obviously it happens after a couple of generations of using the same few lines, but every few years I switch who I'm breeding and always try to bring in new blood. I've never had a problem with kinked tails or missing limbs using this method. I've also never tried to start my own morph that is unpurchasable (I don't think that's a word, lol), so I understand my inbreeding can be useful. If I had to, I would bring in new blood and create some hets and try to get those to breed. It'll take a while but seems like it would keep the genetics stronger. I'm fairly new to actually breeding for sale, but this is my policy after seeing what can happen. Just my two cents.
 
how do you "start a new morph"?

other than going to pakistan to gather wild caught specimens and hopefully popping out with something new from that its impossible, or at least so unlikely that it seems impossible. hense the high price of a new morph. you cant just inbreed the hell out of something and than *blam* new morph! thats nieve.

missing feet and kinked tails arent necessarily the result of coupling recessive genes? what freakin gene makes only 3 feet? can you breed that into other lines? a three footed giant carrot tail?

as far as kinked tails...who knows...could be genetic but it could also be the result incubation temperature fluctuations.

p.s. Ron Tremper has been linebreeding his gecks for what, 20 or 30 years? i have two giant carrot heads from him and both are very docile, do not have kinks in their tails and have all four feet.
 
for the record...

i dont agree with inbreeding in other reptiles. some albino hognose have what we call "twisty neck" where the snake is constantly trying to turn its head around upside down. i feel that this is a result of inbreeding.

i realize that inbreeding is bad in most animals... i just feel that leopard geckos are an exception...but... ive never done it myself to see the results on my own so maybe there are some leopard geckos that come out bad due to inbreeding.... and if thats the case would that person reveal that fact? probably not.
 
new morphs are...

typically the result of some genetic trait (mutation) showing up & then inbreeding that offspring back to one of its parents. After several generations (or maybe after just one) other genetic problems also show up. It doesn't have anything to do with getting wild caught leos. Some breeders will bring in "fresh blood" every couple of generations to try to keep the undesirable traits from showing up. Marcia has the right idea about finding geckos with similar phenotypes (physical appearance) but different pedigrees & breeding those to get the desirable look or morph. To help some people understand better, imagine reproducing with your sibling and then having children with the offspring you produced with your sibling....how do you think the 3rd generation will turn out? Basically, "bad traits" (some of which are normally recessive and don't show up) will start showing up with more frequency. :crap:
 
It doesn't have anything to do with getting wild caught leos.
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thats totally incorrect. im not even going to bother debating that point.

p.s. marcia does have the right idea. i agree. but how often do you think she sells off a gecko she would have kept if she practiced linebreeding. but ideally if you can track down great stock and afford to buy them every year that way would be better. fresh blood is always nice.
 
Incorrect?

Seriously when was the last time you have seen wild caught imports of leopard geckos? Captives breed so readily that there is no need to bring in wild caught. Most of these morphs wouldn't last in the wild...they don't exactly "blend" if you know what I mean. Which breeders do you know started or continue their morphs with wild caught?
 
in leopard geckos? none for sure. however wasnt the first albinos from wild caught? didnt someone find a new patternless in india?

seriously albinos arent typically found in nature because they are light sensitive and high profile which means they probably step out from under a rock...get blinded and eaten in the same breath but hets get found in the wild... anerys get found in the wild...hypos get found in the wild...stripes get found in the wild.... and all captive bred morphs are from wild stock...all captive bred animals are but the morphs pop up usually within a few generations of wild caught stock thanks to hets and a lot of luck.

p.s. i know this isnt leopard geckos but im almost positive that the first albino hognose was found in Texas by Richard Evans (in the wild!).
 
Hmmmm...

"all captive bred morphs are from wild stock" ? How many generations do you want to go back. That is way out there. And I doubt it has been "luck" that has produced a lot of the morphs we are seeing. Breeders are very particular about how and what they breed. Line breeding takes a decent amount of knowledge of genetics. There are some hets for a lot of things found in the wild, the exact number of them is debatable. Theoretically, you could use the Hardy - Weinberg Principle to make your case that there are a lot of hets in nature, but it is a huge crapshoot as to what proportion the alleles are present. I believe the first albino was produced by Ron Tremper. I haven't heard anything about new discoveries in India (would like to hear about any.)
 
Chad Elmore i didnt mean people that breed and sell their geckos sell their nelected animals i meant the people that buy a bunch of animals in bulk and sell them for more expensive then what they bought them for. You read my thread wrong easy on the replies buddy read before you have a temper tantrum.
 
diablohogs said:
thats totally incorrect. im not even going to bother debating that point.
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In my case, when I referred to "starting a new morph", I mainly meant selective breeding to enhance an existing trait, or the combination of mltiple morphs (ex. Garrick's Blazing Blizzard, Carrot-tails that have like 80% carrot-tail, ect). I do agree that Wild-caught specimins likely started a few traits, but there are also quite a few caused by random mutations and other environmental factors (incubation temperature fluctuations, ect).
 
Actually coming from the wild has NOTHING to do with producing new morphs...being wild or captive has nothing to do with it...ALL genetic abberancies (basically all alleles) besides normal come about from mutations...which have nothing to do with whether the parents are wild or captive or orange or patternless or white or purple...whatever...doesn't matter. A mutation is a fluke that produces a new allele and it can happen any time, anywhere. Even in line-bred traits...the individual genes that make up the trait first had to mutate at some point along the line to create the number of alleles that create the appearance. Just because a trait is first observed in the wild or in captivity has nothing to do with the trait itself. The thing is that in captivity if we find an unusual trait that happens to look nice and it turns out to be genetic, a lot of breeders will breed that animal, and then breed its offspring back to it, and then start inbreeding the animals to keep perpetuate the trait. Also, it is possible to create a morph...how do you think tangerines, snows, and red stripes came about? Choosing a leo with somewhat abnormal traits and then breeding to another, and then the offspring back to the parent and then the animals with the most exaggerated of the trait.......that basically means a lot of inbreeding has to occur. And I dont' believe that leopard geckos are at all an exception to the rule that inbreeding brings out undesireable traits. I do believe that kinked tails are a result of inbreeding (at least some of the time). The fact that some morphs appear to be much more prone to them than others would leave me to believe that its something genetic and not incubation. Anyway...that's what I think.
 
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