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Inbreeding

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The husbandry card has been overplayed. Its not needed. I think we should list how we take care of our dragons and see if people approve. I'm sure my husbandry is good. So is puppytoes and WM's ext. Tell me what correct husbandry is and ill see if mine compares. I do not believe anything is part of husbandry. But I have a quick thought. In the beginning when I heard about adeno I compared it to Aids for some reason. What if It has a first form like HIV and doesn't come out for years, and may come out at a point. This is not referring to a hibernating form but to a thought that it may have finally increased to the point its killing dragons. It may cause small problems in the first state but then when changing it becomes worse. Since we don't have answers anything could be a possibility. I'm tired of people trying to find fault in others care to prove your point when we probably all have good care.

But as long as theres opinions someone will have the opposite.
 
Drache613 said:
Hello,

Come on people, that is completely ridiculous! The people who had had terrible problems with adenovirus, they come forward to try & help the community, & what do they get ridiculed!! What is wrong with you people anyway?
Do you think that they wanted to come forward & tell everyone they had this problem because it was fun? I hardly doubt it, as it was heartbreaking for them! Can you not have any sympathy at all? I am so tired of it. AS you all were proved wrong when everyone said, oh, all dragons have adeno, but that is just not true.
However, with that horrible attitude, all dragons certainly will if you have anything to do with it since it doesn't seem to be a problem according to you. This is just disgusting. This whole thing. No wonder no one wants to talk about it, because they get shot down.

Tracie
Click to expand...
very true tracie and i experienced it first hand.its all about covering it up and we refuse to let it happen
 
Valley Dragons, have you even tested your dragons for adenovirus? I know that my husbandry was not a factor. I am not going to get into this whole thing again. There are several posts that go into detail. It sounds like you are having a great healthy first year of breeding........SO DID I. It was the second year when I bred a dragon that turned out to be a carrier that I had babies dying.


Just because people do not come forward with die-off info does not mean it isn't happening. People do not want the hassle or they are scared that this will ruin their chances of continuing breeding.

I do not think that this is a plague. I do think it is a health concern and that there are unknown factors that result in die offs. I would guess different strains. I did not read in Dr. Jacobson's paper that adenovirus is no big deal and breeders should conduct business as usual. He stated it is a health concern and that adeno-free colonies should be our ultimate goal. What you are advocating is significantly different than what I understood Dr. Jacobson's paper to be saying regarding adenovirus in bearded dragons.
 
Hello

Hello,

Great post Ben! I agree, the husbandry has been hashed way too much! Get over it now. It is time to do something about the problem at hand, not ignore it like it has been ignored in the past.
I think as long as there is a good circle of people willing to get word out, & educate people on what is going on, that it will help. There has to be more though. It has to start with breeders who are wanting to be ethical on the whole thing, & help out.
It lies with us, & it is really up to us to make sure the dragon population doesn't disintegrate & disappear here in the US.

Tracie
 
Saladragon said:
Okay. See what you're doing right now? Don't you think your ATTITUDE has kept people who have had issues from coming forward? Heck, positive or negative, people are scared to death to say a word. I've received SEVERAL emails from people experiencing die-offs from Adenovirus. Would I expect those people to come forward and put up with this crap? NO!

Wait a minute...you're questioning me about this "plague" of Adenovirus...but all dragons have it. You can't have it both ways.
Click to expand...

Whoa- my attitude? What attitude? Since when is asking for facts "an attitude"? Once again - if these people were to actually come forward and present real evidence, then maybe there would be a better argument for adenovirus. You and yours like to blame people on the other side of the issue for "spreading" adenovirus - but if this were a plague, then the people who have experienced adeno deaths are TOTALLY to blame for being too wimpy to come forward with REAL information!

Jamie
 
Drache613 said:
Hello,

Come on people, that is completely ridiculous! The people who had had terrible problems with adenovirus, they come forward to try & help the community, & what do they get ridiculed!! What is wrong with you people anyway?
Do you think that they wanted to come forward & tell everyone they had this problem because it was fun? I hardly doubt it, as it was heartbreaking for them! Can you not have any sympathy at all? I am so tired of it. AS you all were proved wrong when everyone said, oh, all dragons have adeno, but that is just not true.
However, with that horrible attitude, all dragons certainly will if you have anything to do with it since it doesn't seem to be a problem according to you. This is just disgusting. This whole thing. No wonder no one wants to talk about it, because they get shot down.

Tracie
Click to expand...

Oh, cry me a river. We ask for facts - you can't give any. It's as simple as that!

Jamie
 
Hello

Hello,

Jamie that is plain mean, mean, mean to say you need more proof! I am sorry, but what more proof do you need than people's dragons who are dead from proved adeno? Do you want them to deliver the bodies to your doorstep?
You have no heart or no sympathy at all for these people struggling with Adeno at all. I just do not get your problem. :shrug01:
Or maybe, you just truly do not care, I just don't know. I don't get it.

Tracie
 
Neverland Dragons said:
Valley Dragons, have you even tested your dragons for adenovirus? I know that my husbandry was not a factor. I am not going to get into this whole thing again. There are several posts that go into detail. It sounds like you are having a great healthy first year of breeding........SO DID I. It was the second year when I bred a dragon that turned out to be a carrier that I had babies dying.
Click to expand...

No - I have not tested. I have not had any health problems or issues with breeding. I too am in my second year. I may test in the future just to increase the amount of data on this virus.

Jamie
 
nevermind,we posted at the same time.so there ya go,another irresponsible breeder.this explains why you are so against us talking about it :yesnod:
 
Jamie the problem with facts is there isn't many. It is observations at the moment. And luckily Tere and Wendy have been nice enough to come forward and talk about there Observations and what happend with this terrible virus. They don't deserve to be treated like crap because they are the only ones that would come forward. Look at sunshine and dachiu they just keep on breeding and making money. They don't have the guts to admit it. Nor would they because it will effect there income. Everything gets harder when someones lively hood is at stake.

The only "facts" we have is in Dr. Jacobsons report and then we have "observations" from creditable people. After all this time we are finally getting answers but this is not enough for some. If people tested it maybe could give us a broader range of information instead of people yelling at those who did the ethical thing for more info when they have given what they want to give and have been persecuted for it.

You cant really get facts. All you can do is read all you can about it and form your own opinion on it. You can not be someones spokesperson or there guard, And use there opinion. Thats all you can do and that all people can give you for information at the time is whats available. Sure people could make stuff up to please the public like some breeders excuse that they believe all dragons have it. But if you want true cold hard facts you have to be patient.
 
Valley Dragons said:
Whoa- my attitude? What attitude? Since when is asking for facts "an attitude"? Once again - if these people were to actually come forward and present real evidence, then maybe there would be a better argument for adenovirus. You and yours like to blame people on the other side of the issue for "spreading" adenovirus - but if this were a plague, then the people who have experienced adeno deaths are TOTALLY to blame for being too wimpy to come forward with REAL information!

Jamie
Click to expand...

Asking for facts becomes attitude when the facts, as they are known are stated, questioned, restated, questioned some more, restated, accusations thrown, restated again.

Me and mine aren't blaming anyone. If you'd like me to start, I certainly could.

And since when did self-preservation become wimpy?
 
puppytoes72 said:
nevermind,we posted at the same time.so there ya go,another irresponsible breeder.this explains why you are so against us talking about it :yesnod:
Click to expand...

What?! I am doing my best to talk about it! And all I get is "Jamie, you're such a big 'ol meany".
 
What would more people comming forward do other than have them treated badly do? Absolutely nothing. The problem seems to be that people or dont want to face facts that this is and will be an issue. only to get bigger.
 
Did you quarantine Mike's dragon's when they came into your home before putting them in with your stock?

Those animals came from Vicki Dachiu given free to Mike by Vicki so then ...

Vicki had it has it and has no problem spreading it freely or by selling... with out people knowingly getting an infected dragon..

I can go and find the post where these animals where sent by Vicki to him They Where FREE ANIMALS

We now know how this virus is spread and harbored in the environment it lives and also from person to animal...

See if even a slight chance she thought they would be fine b/c they lived and showed no outword sign in the beginning . Now a few years later they have shown alot more characteristics to look for or that can be seen.

The inbreeding for color and genetics did / does play a major factor in the health and longevity of a Adenovirus Dragon .

Valley Dragoons alot of people do refer to bearded dragons as a disposable type pet because they are a lizard like compared to a hamster if it dies well get another. They cannot afford nor do they care to take them to the vet.

So how can you say how many have died... It may be better to ask Vicki or Bruce or any other bearded dragon mill owner how many dragons they have killed off or have died as hatchlings or better yet females they have lost due to excess egg laying ?? Remember to the do not ask do not tell policy that has been hidden in the reptile community for many many years.

Then again they would never answer that or if they did it may be one or two in all the years they have been in Business.

I have visited vets a few times and chatted about this virus and yes it is alive and well and more and more are known to have it..


No I will not give out the name nor the phone number as I would never wish what happened to denisebeme' vet on anyone

Also a prime example as to why Any breeder will not now come forward...
 
Saladragon said:
Asking for facts becomes attitude when the facts, as they are known are stated, questioned, restated, questioned some more, restated, accusations thrown, restated again.
Click to expand...

Well, okay - then if we are going to use that definition, then I guess you have an attitude as well. Think back to the smoothie thread...

Jamie
 
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