INFO: UPS-will they honor their agreement?

[hhmoore]

I was ready at work there with my temp gun and I shot his body immediately after opening the cup; it was around 80 degrees with his tail at 92 degrees.

This is where I was going when I asked about the size of the box and the point of origin. 3 heat packs is alot, esp if temps are over 35...even more so if the temps at the point of origin were warm. Now, consider these points: 1) those were the temps upon arrival. 2) You said that (at least one of) the heatpacks were directly under the deli cup 3) the heat packs usually used reach temperatures of approx 130 (imagine a gecko in a deli cup, sitting on a 130` heat source, with no place to go to escape the temp), 4) even allowing that the shipper boxed the gecko at the last minute and dropped it off at UPS at the latest possible time, you are probably looking at a minimum of 15hrs. My guess is that the poor gecko died because of the temperatures. (I'm not saying that there wasn't some harsh treatment, but I have seen poorly packed animals arrive alive and well...despite bad damage to the box. talking serious collapse, broken cardboard, compressed deli cup). Take the replacement animal, and enjoy it...the blame is sufficiently spread, lol

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

3 heat packs is alot, esp if temps are over 35...even more so if the temps at the point of origin were warm. Now, consider these points: 1) those were the temps upon arrival. 2) You said that (at least one of) the heatpacks were directly under the deli cup 3) the heat packs usually used reach temperatures of approx 130 (imagine a gecko in a deli cup, sitting on a 130` heat source, with no place to go to escape the temp), 4) even allowing that the shipper boxed the gecko at the last minute and dropped it off at UPS at the latest possible time, you are probably looking at a minimum of 15hrs. My guess is that the poor gecko died because of the temperatures.

Yvonne, I am really leaning on this explanation, too... I know that's not what you want to hear, and you may NEVER know what really happened. All I can think of right now is the horrible death that beautiful gecko experienced, and the horror you must have felt when opening the anticipated box. At any rate, I am quite sure the shipper is devastated as well. (I know I sure would be...) Unfortunately, UPS will not be held responsible for this tragedy, so try to let it go and accept whatever the shipper is willing to offer.

 

[Xelda]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but was there any substrate in the deli cup with the leopard gecko? At the minimum, there should have been some paper towel to give the leo something to grip onto in the event of being jostled. And ideally, the heat packs would have been taped to the side (not the top or bottom) of the box.

 

[YJHB]

This is where I was going when I asked about the size of the box and the point of origin. 3 heat packs is alot, esp if temps are over 35...even more so if the temps at the point of origin were warm. Now, consider these points: 1) those were the temps upon arrival. 2) You said that (at least one of) the heatpacks were directly under the deli cup 3) the heat packs usually used reach temperatures of approx 130 (imagine a gecko in a deli cup, sitting on a 130` heat source, with no place to go to escape the temp), 4) even allowing that the shipper boxed the gecko at the last minute and dropped it off at UPS at the latest possible time, you are probably looking at a minimum of 15hrs. My guess is that the poor gecko died because of the temperatures

Yeah, it could have been the temperatures you're right. He didn't put those heat packs directly under the cup like that, but when the box was jostled that's where they ended up. He dropped the package off at UPS at around 1 or 2, I think and it arrived at work at 9am, so your guesstimate is about right.

 

[YJHB]

Yvonne, I am really leaning on this explanation, too... I know that's not what you want to hear, and you may NEVER know what really happened. All I can think of right now is the horrible death that beautiful gecko experienced, and the horror you must have felt when opening the anticipated box. At any rate, I am quite sure the shipper is devastated as well. (I know I sure would be...) Unfortunately, UPS will not be held responsible for this tragedy, so try to let it go and accept whatever the shipper is willing to offer.

I know, it was a horrible death and that's all I can think of. When I opened the box and he just lay motionless instead of looking up like Lilly did, I was horrified just like you said. I ripped open his cup as fast as I could and gave him a puff of air, sealing my lips around nose until i felt his chin expand. I then tumbled him around vigorously, and pressed rapidly but gently on his chest, puffed air again...CPR on a gecko for a half hour. I did the best I could but probably was doing it all wrong; he was gone anyway. I couldn't even get a neurological response by stroking his tail.

At least my co workers are now under no false pretenses...I really AM nuts...

 

[YJHB]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but was there any substrate in the deli cup with the leopard gecko? At the minimum, there should have been some paper towel to give the leo something to grip onto in the event of being jostled. And ideally, the heat packs would have been taped to the side (not the top or bottom) of the box.

No, no substrate. This wasn't unusual to me though, because none of the three panther chameleons I bought from Kammerflage Kreations had substrate in their cups either. I guess it could have helped him, but I don't know if that could have changed the outcome or not.
From now on, I'm taping my heat packs when I ship and probably the shipper will do the same. I know the shipper felt absolutely awful. You could see the gecko was fat and healthy; obviously the recipient of great care. I think this was his first DOA, and he's been doing this for at least a couple of years.

 

[BenSiegelReptiles]

ups

our experience with ups has been 99.5% favorable--there have been a few issues over the years but very little doas with them compared with some other carriers we have used. We have even had a few packages lost-delayed 3 or more days, and the animals we still ok. I am glad the seller is replacing it for you. The number of heat pack you use can be a gamble this time of year--we use 3 standard size boxes from superior---small-med-large----the smalls we use one--the mediums we use 2 and the larges we use 2 or 3 depending on where it is going and what is in the box--Ben

 

[YJHB]

This thread should also be moved to the shipping forum. It definitely does not meet the criteria for a BOI thread. UPS has done nothing wrong

John, I noticed that Rich moved this thread to the shipping forum. My opinion that the content is BOI regardless of subject matter is immaterial because I don't have to own this forum (thank god, lol). So, you were right!

 

[Xelda]

No, no substrate. This wasn't unusual to me though, because none of the three panther chameleons I bought from Kammerflage Kreations had substrate in their cups either. I guess it could have helped him, but I don't know if that could have changed the outcome or not.

I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison since chameleons aren't terrestrial like leopard geckos and don't have the same foot structure. Marcia packs her deli cups with shredded newspaper so the leos won't get jostled around in transit. Robin packs a mattress of paper towels inside the deli cup so her leos have soft padding on the bottom and sides of the cups. I think both of these methods work great, but at the minimum, a piece of paper towel put firmly in place can help keep a leo from sliding around. I know some breeders mist the paper towels to offer some hydration during summer shipments.

One time a breeder sent his leopard geckos to me in oversized deli cups with a wet (not moist) wad of paper towel in each cup. My UPS guy likes to leave packages lying sideways, so I could literally hear the geckos roll when I slowly turned the package right-side up.

Shipping is a constant learning process, especially since some methods that work for one species may not be appropriate for another. As you get more and more shipments from various sources, you'll see some innovative ideas and some lousy ones.

 

[YJHB]

Shipping is a constant learning process, especially since some methods that work for one species may not be appropriate for another. As you get more and more shipments from various sources, you'll see some innovative ideas and some lousy ones.

Yeah, that is so true. I'm hoping to learn so much more before I start to ship these myself.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison since chameleons aren't terrestrial like leopard geckos and don't have the same foot structure.

so having something for them to grip on would seem to be that much more important (IMO)...at least leopard geckos can walk easily without some form of substrate. Ever seen a chameleon try to walk across a table?

 

[YJHB]

so having something for them to grip on would seem to be that much more important (IMO)...at least leopard geckos can walk easily without some form of substrate. Ever seen a chameleon try to walk across a table?

Hahahaa, yeah it's comical. They look like a fish out of water! They do need something to wrap those mitten like feet around. I didn't want to mention it because I didn't want to discredit an idea that does have merit. Do I feel that substrate could have helped this little gecko? Absolutely. Do I feel that this gecko died because it didn't have substrate? No.

 

[Xelda]

so having something for them to grip on would seem to be that much more important (IMO)...at least leopard geckos can walk easily without some form of substrate. Ever seen a chameleon try to walk across a table?

This doesn't make substrate any more practical for them though. How I've seen chameleons packed for shipment is with secured fake plants in tall deli cups.

 

[bgexotics]

I think it is important to have some kind of substrate in the cup when shipping. If anything it helps provide a place for the animal to hold on or provides padding and a place to poop. Lizards are shipped with paper towls, frogs with spagnum moss, and chameleons with fake plants. I would be very upset at receiving chameleons with no paper towels or plants. I would think that would be very stressful to them.

As far as heat packs go, I am with Ben on this one. I would think it is much easier to overheat then freeze an animal. I usually drop off my packages at 4 or 5 PM and they usually arrive by 10 AM from UPS. I would be interested in what other people think is the proper amount. I am usually shipping frogs in small boxes so I only use 1 40 hour heat pack.

 

[WebSlave]

I think it would actually be an interesting exercise for someone to test something like this. Record the temperatures via a minimum/maximum thermometer in various sized boxes with 1 to 3 heat packs at a couple of different ambient outside temperatures. Probably would really open up some eyes.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Rob Jenkins (Herpcam) and I conducted a coast-to-coast shipping experiment last winter during the week before Christmas where we obtained two 4-day thermal chart recorders... one for the inside of the box and one secured to the outside of the box. The box size was 14x10x10 with a 1" thick molded styrofoam insert that closes up like an ice chest. The volume of the box would have been less than 1 cubic foot.

I packed the box with shredded newspaper and placed the temerature controller inside, and secured two 30-hour heat-packs inside, one on each opposite side. I turned on the temperature recorders, sealed the box, and attached the second recorder to the ouside of the box. (Pics below)

First, I sent Rob the container from the west cost to the east coast via UPS Overnight Air guaranteed delivery by 10:30 am. The temperatures here were in the low 40's to upper 30's, below freezing in Louisville, KY where the UPS hub is, and in the mid-upper 30's in Mariland when the shipment arrived at 10:00 the next morning.

Rob then opened the box, removed the heat-packs, and replaced them with two new ones. He then sealed the box back up and shipped it back to me via USPS Overnight Priority Mail guaranteed to be delivered by noon the following morning. Par for the course, (especially during Christmas week) the package took 3 days to arrive back to me.

When I removed the the chart recorders and pulled out the yards of tape, the first thing I did was begin to extrapolate the data into an time vs. temperature Excel spreadsheet, first with the data from the inside of the box, and then compared it to the data from the outside of the box. I was looking for how hot it got inside the box over the 16 hour trip, and how long the heat lasted. Likewise, I wanted to determine how cold the external temps were compared to the internal temperature.

Here is the graph that was generated from the data:

 

[YJHB]

Oh, boy the inside isn't much different.

The outside temps are surprisingly high; they must have kept the packages shielded from the worst of it.

 

[YJHB]

You can see exactly when that heat pack stops working too!

 

[Bill & Amy]

Looks like that 30 hour heat pack made it about 19 or 20.

 

[Bill & Amy]

I also wonder if the placement of the heat packs would change the outcome (like under the newspaper)?