Inquiry: Dachiu

[varnyard]

Kevin told me he produced over 9,000 last year.

 

[puppytoes72]

yes,he told me the same.now if dachiu and sandfire(2 major breeders)didnt have the attitude that they have and began testing when the virus was know,maybe it wouldnt be so widespread now.this is the fault of the larger breeders.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Clarification. I have got to stop posting before consuming the appropriate amount of coffee.

We did go ahead and go with the lab here at the University of Arizona because they stated that they could detect Adenovirus in the necropsy.

 

[Tere Salazar]

UGH! I did it again!

Of the 3 that were necropsied, two had been in the freezer, one had been in the refrigerator.

If you guys have any questions, please just ask. I'm sure I've left tons of other stuff out, as well.

 

[Drache613]

Hello

Hello Tere,
Does the U of Arizona do testing on live animals, or not?
I agree, the larger breeders knew of this virus in the 1990's & they simply didn't think it was a problem & brushed it off. Now, years later, it is worse than it has ever been.
The larger breeders, sure, they have more to lose, but look at everything that they could gain? If they want to lead the industry, then, lead BY example, set a testing standard, & I am quite sure that the smaller breeders would follow suit. If they don't start, then, no one will, or very few will feel the need to because "no one else is" & that wont help get anything accomplished.

Tracie

 

[Tere Salazar]

Hello Tere,
Does the U of Arizona do testing on live animals, or not?
I agree, the larger breeders knew of this virus in the 1990's & they simply didn't think it was a problem & brushed it off. Now, years later, it is worse than it has ever been.
The larger breeders, sure, they have more to lose, but look at everything that they could gain? If they want to lead the industry, then, lead BY example, set a testing standard, & I am quite sure that the smaller breeders would follow suit. If they don't start, then, no one will, or very few will feel the need to because "no one else is" & that wont help get anything accomplished.

Tracie

Tracie,

In all honesty, I have not a clue. It's not something I ever checked into. The only things I asked them about were necropsy specifically looking for Adenovirus and Fecal EM testing.

 

[Denisebme]

Tracie,

In all honesty, I have not a clue. It's not something I ever checked into. The only things I asked them about were necropsy specifically looking for Adenovirus and Fecal EM testing.

I should add to this that Tere and I did a lot of research together when this whole issue first came to light last fall, and if I remember correctly, we couldn't find anyone in Arizona that could do even Fecal EM tests.

 

[DThomas]

I should add to this that Tere and I did a lot of research together when this whole issue first came to light last fall, and if I remember correctly, we couldn't find anyone in Arizona that could do even Fecal EM tests.

Have you tried Dr. Funk at the Mesa Veterinary Hospital? He is a well known Herp Vet in this area. If you haven't spoke with him, it might be worth a shot. Their number is (480)833-7330.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Have you tried Dr. Funk at the Mesa Veterinary Hospital? He is a well known Herp Vet in this area. If you haven't spoke with him, it might be worth a shot. Their number is (480)833-7330.

Thank you, Dennis. Actually, that is EXACTLY the man I've been looking for but I never could remember his name. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Would any of the people who have lost animals to this disease be willing to post, or email to someone neutral, numbers of fatalities, numbers of positive testing animals, and numbers of entire collection or colony?

Everyone keeps talking about what a killer this disease is, and while I'm not arguing that animal have died from it, I'd like to see at least a rough baseline lethality percentage. That would give us a much better idea of what we're dealing with.


Even if it is anecdotal JimO

Last season I had 7 adults. After I started to have babies die I tested my adults via fecal em. My yellow male tested positive and the other 6 adults tested clear, including 2 females that were directly exposed through breeding. My orange female laid 5 clutches, My yellow female laid 7 clutches and my other female laid one clutch. I believe that some of the eggs were cross contanimated in the lay bin, as I used the same bin for all females.

The first orange clutch did not show any signs and I sold 10 to a local breeder friend at 5 1/2 weeks. These babies tested negative in the Fall of 2006.

The first yellow clutch seemed fine, except for the fact that they were EXTREMELY aggressive. I mean biting off tail tips and chewing on feet. They were fed very well and kept only 5 babies to a bin.

The second yellow clutch was the first to have a baby die at 2 1/2 weeks. I lost 6 out of 30 hatchlings form that clutch.

The second orange clutch had babies having the same symptoms and they started to die at 6 weeks. I lost 4 out of 32 hatchlings from that clutch.

I had necropsies done on one baby from each cross and the diagnosis was adenovirus in bearded dragons. The comments said intranuclear inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were seen in sections of kidney (proximal tubules), liver, conjunctiva and intestine. The clinical signs and lack of gross necropsy findings are also consistant with adenovirus infection.

The third yellow clutch had 12 out of 24 die and the fourth orange clutch had 2 out of 18 die.

I froze the eggs of the subsequent yellow clutches as I did not want to put any more babies or myself through this again. Of the surviving hatchlings all bins and single tests (except one baby) came back positive. And of those, approximately half of each clutch was grossly undersized (much like Tere's picture shows). I hatched the last two orange clutches and had only a few deaths, but many were very small and all tested positive for adenovirus.

I retested this season, with 2 clutches from my orange line in the incubator and all dragons came back positive. I threw out all plastics and disinfected everything I could and this still was spread through out my whole colony. I froze the two clutches and will freeze any others laid.

So, fresh off that experience I said last Fall that adeno was this horrible virus and it could lead to the downfall of bearded dragons as we know them. I still believe that this virus has the potential to be deadly as I did experience that. But, in speaking with trusted breeders that have had positives, but no die offs or non thrivers, I also believe that a dragon can be a carrier and not have any significant health issues. It is important to note that Clyde, my yellow positive male that I believe brought it into my colony, was 540 grams and 22 inches. He did not look sick and did not have health issues. But what this virus did to my colony is a testament that even though a dragon is not showing any symptoms, it just takes one adeno positive dragon to be devastating to a dragon colony. That is just my experience with this virus.

 

[monkeywrench133]

Currently in our collection, we have 14 dragons. Of those dragons, 10 have been tested for Adenovirus, and as I stated earlier, there's some discrepancy as to Aphrodite's results. If she's positive for Adenovirus, we have 8 positives, 2 negatives. If she is, in fact, negative, we have 7 positives, 3 negatives.

The clutch that made us aware of the issues we were having was Annie x Ari. Again, neither parent has been tested for Adenovirus as we no longer own them.

I'm going strictly off of memory here because I can't figure out what the hubby did with the "birth records" we keep for all the clutches. But if memory serves me, I believe Annie laid 2 clutches of around 20 eggs each. Of those 40, we lost quite a few in incubation (around 1/4 of each clutch if I remember correctly), but I don't remember the exact number without being able to look at my records. Once those eggs hatched, I lost count at 9 babies dying, and I won't even make a guess at how many it was in all.

Of those that survived, there were what appeared to be extremely healthy babies with normal growth rates. But there were also several that have some serious non-thriving issues. This picture just about says it all. Both of these dragons hatched the same day (October 31, 2006), and this picture was taken in a couple of months ago. The tiny ones are now around 8" long.

So, In your collection of adults there are 4 unknowns, and for the sake of arguement, 8 positives and 2 negatives.

As far as the clutches, lets use 40 for a base number

lost 10 (25%) in incubation, unfortunately, there are too many variables to assume that AV was the cause for loosing those eggs.

Leaving 30 hatchlings. Would you say you lost half? and then another 2 which apparently will never be breedable, making them effectively the same as the fatalities? so 17 out of the 30. Leaving 13, or 43%.

or conversely, and more troubling, a lethality rate of 57% in your colony.

 

[monkeywrench133]

Last season I had 7 adults. After I started to have babies die I tested my adults via fecal em. My yellow male tested positive and the other 6 adults tested clear, including 2 females that were directly exposed through breeding. My orange female laid 5 clutches, My yellow female laid 7 clutches and my other female laid one clutch. I believe that some of the eggs were cross contanimated in the lay bin, as I used the same bin for all females.

The first orange clutch did not show any signs and I sold 10 to a local breeder friend at 5 1/2 weeks. These babies tested negative in the Fall of 2006.

The first yellow clutch seemed fine, except for the fact that they were EXTREMELY aggressive. I mean biting off tail tips and chewing on feet. They were fed very well and kept only 5 babies to a bin.

The second yellow clutch was the first to have a baby die at 2 1/2 weeks. I lost 6 out of 30 hatchlings form that clutch.

The second orange clutch had babies having the same symptoms and they started to die at 6 weeks. I lost 4 out of 32 hatchlings from that clutch.

I had necropsies done on one baby from each cross and the diagnosis was adenovirus in bearded dragons. The comments said intranuclear inclusion bodies consistent with adenovirus were seen in sections of kidney (proximal tubules), liver, conjunctiva and intestine. The clinical signs and lack of gross necropsy findings are also consistant with adenovirus infection.

The third yellow clutch had 12 out of 24 die and the fourth orange clutch had 2 out of 18 die.

I froze the eggs of the subsequent yellow clutches as I did not want to put any more babies or myself through this again. Of the surviving hatchlings all bins and single tests (except one baby) came back positive. And of those, approximately half of each clutch was grossly undersized (much like Tere's picture shows). I hatched the last two orange clutches and had only a few deaths, but many were very small and all tested positive for adenovirus.

I retested this season, with 2 clutches from my orange line in the incubator and all dragons came back positive. I threw out all plastics and disinfected everything I could and this still was spread through out my whole colony. I froze the two clutches and will freeze any others laid.

So, fresh off that experience I said last Fall that adeno was this horrible virus and it could lead to the downfall of bearded dragons as we know them. I still believe that this virus has the potential to be deadly as I did experience that. But, in speaking with trusted breeders that have had positives, but no die offs or non thrivers, I also believe that a dragon can be a carrier and not have any significant health issues. It is important to note that Clyde, my yellow positive male that I believe brought it into my colony, was 540 grams and 22 inches. He did not look sick and did not have health issues. But what this virus did to my colony is a testament that even though a dragon is not showing any symptoms, it just takes one adeno positive dragon to be devastating to a dragon colony. That is just my experience with this virus.

Ok, If I'm reading this correctly, out of the numbers you specifically gave, you lost 22 out of 86 hatchlings, or 25.6%. And that number would actually be lower, since you had two clutches with no losses. Any idea how many hatchlings in each of those clutches?

But still, with you at 25.6%, and Tere at 57%, that averages out to 41.3%.

 

[Tere Salazar]

So, In your collection of adults there are 4 unknowns, and for the sake of arguement, 8 positives and 2 negatives.

As far as the clutches, lets use 40 for a base number

lost 10 (25%) in incubation, unfortunately, there are too many variables to assume that AV was the cause for loosing those eggs.

Leaving 30 hatchlings. Would you say you lost half? and then another 2 which apparently will never be breedable, making them effectively the same as the fatalities? so 17 out of the 30. Leaving 13, or 43%.

or conversely, and more troubling, a lethality rate of 57% in your colony.

The two (actually three now) tiny babies are siblings to the ones that tested positive, so I'm just assuming that they're positive, as well. I tested one seemingly heathly one, and one seemingly healthy, but really small baby...just not the ones that are way undersized. Hopefully that makes sense.

No, I can't attribute losing the eggs to Adenovirus in any way. In fact, I remember thinking they weren't fertile, as they reacted the way infertiles do in the incubator...turning yellow and getting rather smelly.

I don't think we lost quite half because if I remember correctly, I gave away 14, and we still have 5. But yes, that sounds pretty close.

Before anyone asks, the ones I gave away went to pet only homes with full disclosure of their possible Adenovirus status.

 

[walker75]

MonkeyWrench

Did Mike or Vicki send you in ?

Vicki has questions posed to her and She needs to come in and answer them

Seems you are getting stats so I also have some questions to ask when she shows up tell her

walker

 

[JimD]

Is it not fair for anyone to ask questions except those hell bent on this bash parade?
Jim

 

[Neverland Dragons]

I read that the mortality rate can be as low as 10%. That is only two babies out of a clutch of 20. The key here, for me, is that an asymptomatic carrier may pass this on to offspring and you could have the die offs and non thrivers as a result. But, there are also cases where you have positive parents and offspring with no apparent health issues. We need to figure out what the unknown factor is that causes the die offs and non thrivers.

 

[monkeywrench133]

The two (actually three now) tiny babies are siblings to the ones that tested positive....

I don't think we lost quite half because if I remember correctly, I gave away 14, and we still have 5. But yes, that sounds pretty close.

The three with health problems are included in the 5 you kept, correct?

So that would be 16 healthy, reproducable dragons, 14 effective fatalities.

so that changes the percentage to a 46.7% lethality rate.

and a revised cummulative of 36.2%.

Admittedly, these sample numbers are way to small to be truly significant, but at least they give us something to work with.

 

[monkeywrench133]

MonkeyWrench

Did Mike or Vicki send you in ?

Vicki has questions posed to her and She needs to come in and answer them

Seems you are getting stats so I also have some questions to ask when she shows up tell her

walker

No, I have never communicated with Vicki in any way, shape or form.

I have not been in contact with Mike for several weeks.

Yes, I am a mod on another forum with both of them. A forum that Tere was, until recently a mod on also.

My question stemmed from an email exchange I had with Tere a few days ago.

The statistics are derived from the numbers that Tere and Neverland both posted, I just did some math with them.

I'm only interested in trying to get some kind of grasp on the numbers involved here, nothing more.

 

[Tere Salazar]

The three with health problems are included in the 5 you kept, correct?

So that would be 16 healthy, reproducable dragons, 14 effective fatalities.

so that changes the percentage to a 46.7% lethality rate.

and a revised cummulative of 36.2%.

Admittedly, these sample numbers are way to small to be truly significant, but at least they give us something to work with.

Yes, the three are included, making five alltogether.

This is why it's so important for people to feel comfortable sharing their experiences with this virus, so that all of us can learn.

 

[varnyard]

Is it not fair for anyone to ask questions except those hell bent on this bash parade?
Jim

I answered your questions, now answer mine.

So Canada does not know?

Did you know?

Are you going to import again this year?