Inquiry: Dachiu

[Dennis Hultman]

The first time we sent samples in for testing from any of our own animals was the round that the posted results came from - March 16. We pulled these dragons when they hatched and set them up in the testing bins. We have never tested any of our adults, nor any of the animals we offer for sale.

JimO, I have an email from Lou Ann just today…

I will not be responding to the lies that CheriS has posted or any more of the nonsense. The time and effort it takes to gather and relay facts to people who simply don’t care to listen is too much. This has been going on in the forum for over 6 months - and I am exhausted. Florida will be releasing their summation shortly.

How long does it take for the tests to come back?

 

[KelliH]

We'd like to thank Tammy for posting the Adenovirus document from the University of Florida in the Bearded Dragon forum. Check it out - its a good read...

It is indeed a very interesting and informative document. The main points that I got from it were:
1.) Most of the bearded dragons in the US are AV positive.
2.) Most AV positive dragons appear to have a subclinical form and show no symptoms of illness.
3.) PCR testing is the best test for AV, nested PCR seems to be the best method.
4.) Electron microscopy is not a reliable testing method and results in false positives many times.
5.) Disease brought on by AV is either often or always (I couldn't really tell which from the paper)caused by other factors such as the dragon's immune system strength and infection by other pathogens (internal parasites perhaps) and poor or incorrect husbandry.
6.) A single negative test result does not mean the dragon is negative.
7.) There may or may not be different strains of AV in beardies, no one knows.
8.) According to the authors of the paper, chances are very slim that ANY dragon collection is AV free.
9.)Any breeder that has AV positive test results from their animals has a moral obligation to inform buyers of such.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[varnyard]

I just read it, unfortunately I do not see a lot of info that has not already been stated. Again as a lot of people have said, more research needs to be done.
I did find the part on whether it should be ignored interesting...

I seen where he said it should be told to buyers as well, before they buy them.

Jim, I agree again, all breeders should not sell these animals as healthy until the have tested all of them. It might not be a killer to all dragons, but it is far from anything good.

I also read the whole post by Cheri again, one part says we have the choice not to buy from these sellers.

 

[KelliH]

I noticed I made an error, sorry about that. # 4 should read:
4.) Electron microscopy is not a reliable testing method and results in false negatives many times.

 

[puppytoes72]

I just read it, unfortunately I do not see a lot of info that has not already been stated. Again as a lot of people have said, more research needs to be done.
I did find the part on whether it should be ignored interesting...

yes,i noticed that too and also found it very interesting

 

[KelliH]

Wow, I thought the most interesting fact was that the paper's authors are basically stating that almost all, no, I'll go a step further and say VIRTUALLY all of the dragons in the US are AV positive, and yes that was already stated by at least two people that have commented in these many threads on this subject: Kevin Dunne and Vicky Dachiu.

 

[Stardust]

Yes and thank you Tammy for bringing that forward and U of F for taking the time.

 

[Jim O]

Interesting points from that paper include the fact that they don't know when Agamid AV entered the US but some people posting on this thread seem to have clearly mapped the epidemiology. It was first reported as long ago as 1982 in New Zealand. I wonder how old some of the breeders were then...

Sections 4 and 5, beginning on page 9 of the paper contain the meat of the material.

Once again, and I say this even though it supports much of what I have said, this paper is only a summary of their experience and not a prospective study. It does, however, summarize what scientists know.They suggest a lot of follow-up study be done. Whether it will happen I don't know. Maybe Cheri can get her friends in California to pony up for some of it.

Dennis, those results have been posted.

 

[varnyard]

Wow, I thought the most interesting fact was that the paper's authors are basically stating that almost all, no, I'll go a step further and say VIRTUALLY all of the dragons in the US are AV positive, and yes that was already stated by at least two people that have commented in these many threads on this subject: Kevin Dunne and Vicky Dachiu.

That would depend on if all dragons are tested, what about the tests not submitted to him?

 

[Denisebme]

Bingo!!!! She is 100% great at that!!

Yes she is, and yet, she supposedly questioned my integrity because I missed one phone call (3 days after her public attack began), but she outright dodges them.
Shame, shame........

 

[varnyard]

Jim, so let me get this right, you think it is just fine to breed and sell them?

 

[Dennis Hultman]

How long does it take for the tests to come back?

If anyone can answer, it would be appreciated. The tests Vicki states that were the first ones she ever sent in were done on March 16th, can the results be viewed quickly are do you have to wait days or weeks to find out?

 

[puppytoes72]

That would depend on if all dragons are tested, what about the tests not submitted to him?

exactly bobby!alot of ppl are not testing because they do not see any health problems and have no reason to test because they do not plan on breeding.

 

[Stardust]

Interesting points from that paper include the fact that they don't know when Agamid AV entered the US but some people posting on this thread seem to have clearly mapped the epidemiology. It was first reported as long ago as 1982 in New Zealand. I wonder how old some of the breeders were then...

Sections 4 and 5, beginning on page 9 of the paper contain the meat of the material.

Once again, and I say this even though it supports much of what I have said, this paper is only a summary of their experience and not a prospective study. It does, however, summarize what scientists know.They suggest a lot of follow-up study be done. Whether it will happen I don't know. Maybe Cheri can get her friends in California to pony up for some of it.

Dennis, those results have been posted.

Yes Jim and maybe some of the bigger breeders who have made so much money off dragons can pony up as well.

 

[puppytoes72]

If anyone can answer, it would be appreciated. The tests Vicki states that were the first ones she ever sent in were done on March 16th, can the results be viewed quickly are do you have to wait days or weeks to find out?

i had the EM test done.i shipped out the test on tuesday and lou ann emailed me on that friday with the results

 

[shrap]

From the report of Dr. Jacobson:

Any breeder that has AV positive test results from their animals has a moral obligation to inform buyers of such.

Which is exactly what I have been saying from the very beginning. And to hide behind NOT testing at all is just as bad as not informing potential customers if you are positive.

And with that said, I am done with all of this.

 

[varnyard]

Dachiu: Wendy, it says on the web site that the currently available animals are not tested - They are not tested. If someone chooses to purchase an animal that is their choice. If the choose to test that animal - they have 6 weeks!

To the best of my knowledge, Rob did not test for adenovirus.

Dr. Jacobson: Quote: Any breeder that has AV positive test results from their animals has a moral obligation to inform buyers of such.

Dachiu No Bobby, animals were sent here for testing. No money exchanged hands, except for the shipping fees.

So how many of the tests were submitted by you?

 

[Tere Salazar]

If anyone can answer, it would be appreciated. The tests Vicki states that were the first ones she ever sent in were done on March 16th, can the results be viewed quickly are do you have to wait days or weeks to find out?

Dennis-

Mine were received by Lou Ann on a Tuesday morning, and I had the bulk of my results the following Friday afternoon.

 

[Jim O]

That would depend on if all dragons are tested, what about the tests not submitted to him?

So now you are challenging the data Bobby? Did you read the paper? Viral shedding is likely to be intermittent so even several negatives do not prove an animal is negative.

It is their belief that virtually all colonies are infected. It's an educated guess based on their experience. Argue with it if you like.

Jim, so let me get this right, you think it is just fine to breed and sell them?

Well Bobby, let's examine the alternatives. If Dr. Jacobson et al are correct and virtually all animals are infected and most od them are healthy then what are the choices? Let captive born bearded dragons simply go away in the US because virtually the entire population is infected and Australia is not exporting any more? Or continue to breed and sell them? Those are the alternatives. Let me think for a nanosecond about that one...

Did you actually read the paper?

 

[KelliH]

That would depend on if all dragons are tested, what about the tests not submitted to him?

Bobby, I am just stating some of the inferences according to the three doctors that authored the paper in question. Here are some quotes from the paper that led me to make the statement that virtually all beardies are positive:

It is very apparent that there is a high prevalence of Agamid AV in bearded dragons in the United States.

The majority of samples we have tested from pet bearded dragons are positive.

Agamid AV infection is very common in bearded populations in the United States.

Prevalence of agamid adenovirus is very high in captive bearded dragons.

Bearded dragons that are positive for agamid AV have been detected in all groups studied so far.

I can go on but there's no point. All one has to do is read the paper; it is clear that AV is everywhere. Sure there may be some negative animals out there, but just think about it for a minute, think about it! I would bet a large amount of money that every medium to large sized bearded dragon breeder in this country has AV positive dragons in their colonies and therefore sells AV positive babies every year.