Inquiry: Dachiu

[CheriS]

Jim O

Sorry, I only got home about 3 hours ago and have to feed 15 dragons, 2 lawsons, 500 silkworms, a water dragon, a uro, 2 snakes and 2 kids..... it takes me some time to read though these, answer them and dart back and forth with kids fighting and a cat out side screaming.... You wouldn't want a stray cat would you? No one is ignoring your request, I only read it 5 minutes ago!! I work all day and like I said, I have been reading, answering some and doing needed things for the animals here in between.

Nope - Sandfire does not get a free pass at all? But we can ask them not to sell animals that they know have problems, suspect are or can be positive and we can choose not to purchase ones from breeders that it is known are selling infected animalsIf you read the whole thing you would see that is not cheering section for anyone and also thanks to mikey's help you can see I am not a fan of their situation or set up I still wonder why she was so upset I was linking to a post that someone said they had inbreed dragons in the past, it was something that many people wondered about. IT is also curious that Vicki has tried to get Sandfire Ranch involved and removed from the breeders network for years, I just do not bite at the bait. It was very striking to see that someone that claims to have inbreed for them a few years ago, admitted he did it then and was proud of it... pretty strange!

No infected dragon should be sold to someone unknown that can infect their other possible negative dragons ..... they have been.... some newer breeders never even knew there was a risk, they were not given that option of deciding if they wanted that risk, they were used too.

Also, there are some questions that have come up regarding the ability for some testing to be able to determine if there is a problem..... but sick animals, non thriver's and dying ones DOES tell you there is a problem. And necropsy studies will tell you if the virus was the cause or a contributing cause. Do you have information that other breeders have not gone that route and corrected the problem?

most damining info with respect to Vickie is that Cheri told her to test in 2002[/b] that was someone else's question I could answer. Its the lies and games she plays with others. Making up stores that brings other in to come down on someone she is targeting, like what was pulled with Denise... like Tere, and the crap she also plays with Wendy, putting up others to do her dirty work or call to get reports for her or posing as someone else to get them. I do encourage you to read all the post on this subject, not just this one or parts of one, this thread exist because of things she has done to others.. MANY OTHERS and been caught in it. Vicki lies, a lot and she has constantly been caught doing it and setting people up. She plays people off each other, runs to one and says one thing, then to the other...... I last saw that in middle school, these are things that I have never found to be ethical or a desirable traits in someone. These are things that drags this profession down into the gutter.

 

[varnyard]

So now you are challenging the data Bobby? Did you read the paper? Viral shedding is likely to be intermittent so even several negatives do not prove an animal is negative.

It is their belief that virtually all colonies are infected. It's an educated guess based on their experience. Argue with it if you like.


Well Bobby, let's examine the alternatives. If Dr. Jacobson et al are correct and virtually all animals are infected and most od them are healthy then what are the choices? Let captive born bearded dragons simply go away in the US because virtually the entire population is infected and Australia is not exporting any more? Or continue to breed and sell them? Those are the alternatives. Let me think for a nanosecond about that one...

Did you actually read the paper?

I guess you missed the part where Vickie was collecting dragons for testing.

Quote: Dachiu No Bobby, animals were sent here for testing. No money exchanged hands, except for the shipping fees.

So how many of those tests were submitted Vickie?

 

[puppytoes72]

jim and kelli,ill say this again and again.its about informing the public and not intentionally hiding behind a disclaimer that implies that one has never tested

 

[varnyard]

Kelli, he also said he is not saying there is not clean colonies out there as well.

He said out of the groups he tested.

 

[Jim O]

Yes Jim and maybe some of the bigger breeders who have made so much money off dragons can pony up as well.

That's who I was referring to Rozann. Cheri's friends, the ones she has given a pass to because it would be inconcenient for them to test, the biggest US producer at 9000 dragons per year. Yup, yup, those would be the ones.

 

[KelliH]

kelli,ill say this again and again.its about informing the public and not intentionally hiding behind a disclaimer that implies that one has never tested

Excuse me but I never said it was ok for Vickie to hide behind a disclaimer, now did I?

 

[varnyard]

That's who I was referring to Rozann. Cheri's friends, the ones she has given a pass to because it would be inconcenient for them to test, the biggest US producer at 9000 dragons per year. Yup, yup, those would be the ones.

Did you read the whole post? She also said we have the choice not to buy from them.

 

[shrap]

That's who I was referring to Rozann. Cheri's friends, the ones she has given a pass to because it would be inconcenient for them to test, the biggest US producer at 9000 dragons per year. Yup, yup, those would be the ones.

Jim you are pathetic. If you read her whole post... nevermind. You did read it. You just chose to pick a part of her post and use it against her instead of what her WHOLE post really said and meant.

Just like many reporters who take a part of a quote and publish it in such a way as to make it appear as though someone said something completely different than what they really.

Yeah, you are a real good guy Jim. At least I used to think so.

 

[KelliH]

Bobby, the three doctor's that authored the paper say this:

To date, we are not aware of any source of bearded dragons that has been proven to be free of agamid adenovirus. This statement does not imply that adenovirus is not an important health problem in these animals or that adenovirus-free colonies will not be available in the future.

It's so clear to me now, I can't understand why it isn't to you too. It's very sad also.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Bobby, the three doctor's that authored the paper say this:

To date, we are not aware of any source of bearded dragons that has been proven to be free of agamid adenovirus. This statement does not imply that adenovirus is not an important health problem in these animals or that adenovirus-free colonies will not be available in the future.

It's so clear to me now, I can't understand why it isn't to you too. It's very sad also.

Kelli-

I think what Bobby's trying to say is that not everyone who has tested did so using the University of Florida, and Dr. Jacobson is basing his findings only on the tests conducted at the University of Florida.

It's a bit confusing because a some people are testing at other places...not to mention that a good portion of the people testing already suspect they have a problem.

 

[KelliH]

we can choose not to purchase ones from breeders that it is known are selling infected animals

Sounds as if choices are going to be limited then. Real, REAL limited.

 

[Scott Ashton]

Bobby, the three doctor's that authored the paper say this:

To date, we are not aware of any source of bearded dragons that has been proven to be free of agamid adenovirus. This statement does not imply that adenovirus is not an important health problem in these animals or that adenovirus-free colonies will not be available in the future.

It's so clear to me now, I can't understand why it isn't to you too. It's very sad also.

There is a big difference between not being AWARE of something and something not existing.

The fact that they aren't aware of a negative colony existing doesn't mean that one doesn't in fact exist.

 

[Jim O]

jim and kelli,ill say this again and again.its about informing the public and not intentionally hiding behind a disclaimer that implies that one has never tested

Michele, your condescending attitude is not helping your case. I have addressed that issue twice in this thread and in a private email to Vickie Dachiu. Bobby asked me if it's OK to keep breeding dragons knowing they are positive. My answer is yes. The alternative is to let captive born dragons disappear from the market.

I think both of you should read the posts.

Kelli, he also said he is not saying there is not clean colonies out there as well.

He said that all the colonies that he tested are positive. We don't know if that number is three colonies or 300 or 3000. He also pointed out that EM is not nearly as sensitive as PCR and false negatives are common. He also said that testing blood using PCR had little value. He also points out that multiple negative tests, even by PCR do not prove that an animal is not infected. So...no one can prove that their animals are not infected at this point. Certainly not with one test and not with a blood test. The paper also says

To date we have seen no evidence of collections that are completely free of Agamid adenovirus 1.

 

[KelliH]

Tere, I comprehended what Bobby was saying just fine, but I also comprehended what the paper was saying just fine too. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, good or bad etc but I am no dummy and it is pretty clear what those three doctor's believe to be true, and I certainly don't doubt it.

 

[Denisebme]

exactly bobby!alot of ppl are not testing because they do not see any health problems and have no reason to test because they do not plan on breeding.

A lot of people aren't testing because they're misinformed too. My understanding is that Dr. Jacobson has done a little over 500 tests so far, and while I'm not debating his results and I find them quite depressing, its still early and all of us should be encouraging people to test, the more dragons tested, the better the information we'll get.
A lot of breeders aren't testing because they're afraid, and I don't blame them. I don't agree with them, but I don't blame them. We NEED to find negative dragons and we NEED to continue testing. The optimist in me says that maybe this can still be turned around. The rest of me just feels like crying. I have more testing scheduled for May, and I'll be holding my breath until then, and then we'll schedule another round of testing, and I'll hold my breath again.

 

[whiskersmom]

Vickie and Rob, what I would like to know is why you didn't have your vet contact the lab Denise used in getting the PCR test done BEFORE you orchestrated your smear campaign....and let's be honest, it was just that.

 

[KelliH]

The fact that they aren't aware of a negative colony existing doesn't mean that one doesn't in fact exist.

Yeah, there probably is a slim chance but you have to admit it's a mighty slim chance. Just go check out many of the dragon breeder's collection pages on their websites and look at the lineage of their dragons and/or where they were produced for a start.

 

[puppytoes72]

Excuse me but I never said it was ok for Vickie to hide behind a disclaimer, now did I?

sorry kelli but im only stating what the most important thing is here.,you and jim posted back to back on how the report states that all colonies have it and im just trying to stress the point that its about being honest with potential buyers.mainly it was jims quote that made me say that.jim said " Well Bobby, let's examine the alternatives. If Dr. Jacobson et al are correct and virtually all animals are infected and most od them are healthy then what are the choices? Let captive born bearded dragons simply go away in the US because virtually the entire population is infected and Australia is not exporting any more? Or continue to breed and sell them? Those are the alternatives. Let me think for a nanosecond about that one...

Did you actually read the paper?" and i do agree with you kelli,it is very sad

 

[varnyard]

Bobby, the three doctor's that authored the paper say this:

To date, we are not aware of any source of bearded dragons that has been proven to be free of agamid adenovirus. This statement does not imply that adenovirus is not an important health problem in these animals or that adenovirus-free colonies will not be available in the future.

It's so clear to me now, I can't understand why it isn't to you too. It's very sad also.

Yea, I think it is real clear, not the first time, a, Kelli?

Jim O, I can not agree with Sammy more.

Yea, Vickie is a real swell good guy, is that what you want me to say?

Jim O, wipe your nose off, you have a bunch of brown stuff on it.

Lets all sell sick animals, the hell with morals. You guys make me sick!!

 

[Jim O]

Jim you are pathetic. If you read her whole post... nevermind. You did read it. You just chose to pick a part of her post and use it against her instead of what her WHOLE post really said and meant.

Just like many reporters who take a part of a quote and publish it in such a way as to make it appear as though someone said something completely different than what they really.

Yeah, you are a real good guy Jim. At least I used to think so.

Thanks for making this personal Sammy. I also thought that you were better than that. I guess we both were wrong. I read that whole post. And what was clear was Cheri conceded that it would be inconvenient (expensive) for Sandfire to test because they house their entire collection outside and don't monitor which dragon breeds which one and the eggs are laid outdoors, etc, etc. You can boil it anyway you like but that's what she said.

Cheri, make up your mind. Either all the big breeders should test their breeding stock or they should not. Sandfire can pick up a representative sample of their breeders, do cloacal swabs for PCR testing, send them off, get results, and call it a day. So could Dachiu. It shouldn't be one standard for Southern California and another for Pennsylvania.