Inquiry, Denise Latanzi AKA, Denisebme www.Calidragons.com

[Jim O]

I lost 40 plus babies to this virus last season

With due respect Wendy, was it necropsy proven that your babies died from this virus? Same question for you Tere. Or have you both just assumed that because your colonies tested positive that was the cause of some of your babies dying? Consider the concept of "true, true, and unrelated". It's used in medicine all of the time to describe events that occur coincidentally but are not related to one another causally. Google the phrase and you will probably find thousands of medical type hits. The fact is that presence of virus and dying off of some offspring proves absolutely nothing. There is no doubt that some dragons have died from viral infection, but it may be 0.01% of those infected. Is that significant?

As for Denise, I smell a bit of rotten tuna here. Either she had a blood test done or she did not. Her refusal to name the lab which performed the test despite multiple requests suggests that she has been less than forthright in her claims. She can easily clear this up but chooses not to do just that.

Mark, claiming negative testing, even if true is relevant because some people will choose to buy from those making such a claim and it will put them at a competitive advantage. But, as we all know, an animal can be infected and have multiple negative tests if it isn't shedding. For all we know, this virus can be as relatively "innocuous" as the chickenpox virus which lives forever in every human who has had the disease but is shed and transmitted only occasionally. Testing me for viral shedding of that virus would show me to have been negative for the last 40+ years but I could have an outbreak of Herpes Zoster (Shingles) tomorrow and be shedding and infecting like crazy.

As I said in a thread before, there have been no prospective, controlled, peer reviewed studies on this subject so all that is going back and forth about this virus being a huge killer of colonies is anecdote.

And no, I have no horse in this race. I do not breed beardies and have no current plans to breed them. I haven't tested my few "pet" beardies because they are outwardly healthy and thriving. For the record, and to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest, I know Vickie Dachiu. I bought from her and would again, and care not if she has tested or not. I would wager however that her colony has been exposed, as I would make the same wager for all other large scale breeders. Again, just like most all of us have been exposed to chickenpox.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that this is all a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Wilomn]

Tere, I'm confused.

How can Denise proving that she did PCR tests be detrimental to her? It seems to me that if she can prove the tests were done and that the outcome was indeed 100% negative that only good could come from getting this out to the public.

I don't see why she should be held to any lessor standard than anyone else, nor one any greater.

If she's done the tests, as she apparrenty attests, and they were done properly and they were negative, why NOT share the results?

 

[draggintails]

"Someone somewhere else named alot of breeders that where not mentioned in the possible spread of this as having high color morphs..

That may or may not have this Adenovirus or as to Mentioning testing one way or another

One named I found this am that was left off the list was Alpha Dragons
he has high color morphs also and he exports these animals

Again not to say he has it but he also was left off the list "

Where is this list in it's entirety and will the authors and all participants contributing information for this list please provide thier names?

 

[varnyard]

Saladragon: It means that Denise is still going to do it exactly the way she originally said she would do, which is to present proof that she PCR tested in a manner that she's still protected

.

What is it that she is protecting? No one claims to have all clean tests but her. What could anyone do to her about her results that needs to be protected?

Everyone that is testing has positive results but her.

It does not add up, also that is a very lame excuse at best.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Tere, I'm confused.

How can Denise proving that she did PCR tests be detrimental to her? It seems to me that if she can prove the tests were done and that the outcome was indeed 100% negative that only good could come from getting this out to the public.

I don't see why she should be held to any lessor standard than anyone else, nor one any greater.

If she's done the tests, as she apparrenty attests, and they were done properly and they were negative, why NOT share the results?

Wes,

I'm sorry. I should have been much clearer. I haven't had all my coffee yet this morning. Forgive me?

I should have stated that were Denise to post her results on a private message board, they could easily be altered and used by someone trying to show they have a negative colony.

It's already been proven on another thread that watermarks can be removed with little or no damage, and I'm sure a plethora of other things could be done. I'm certainly no computer expert, so I can't list the number of things that could be done to accomplish any alterations. I also can't think of any ways to protect that document.

It was also proven on that same thread that these type of test results are in high demand, as someone has already faked their results to appear they have a negative colony. How that was accomplished or why, I don't know. I just know it was done.

Denise is well aware that she's the only person publicly claiming to have a negative testing breeding colony, and because of that, her test results are in high demand.

Denise has been working closely with her vet trying to come up with a way to have her results verified for potential buyers, but there has never been any rush on it because she currently has nothing for sale.

She has put a rush on it, but is still trying to accomplish informing everyone here without having a hard copy of those results available to the general public to use as they please.

Hopefully that made some sense.

 

[Otter_23]

I never said minimized threat, it is killing dragons, there is proof of this everywhere. There are also dragons that do live with it.

I also never stated ethically alright to breed these animals anywhere. I have not said that is was fine to breed them or sell them.
What I have said is that it is wrong to be the only one that claims to have clean dragons and claim to use testing on this virus there is no proof of.

To claim to be the only one to have 15 clean dragons, (all of her dragons) IMO, needs to be backed up with proof. Before she makes the same claims when she starts selling babies.

No other breeder that has tested has clean dragons, what does that tell you? Where did she get all of these clean dragons, when everyone else has the virus in theirs?

Here is my issue Bobby the breeders you have spoken up for refuse to test and one has even stated that it is very likely his dragons have been in contact with the virus. Yet you have not questioned them and asked why they continue to sell dragons. I understand that Denise is the only one to claim to have a clean colony and I am very aware of the advantage she could have if the virus proves as dangerous as it is percieved, but she is not selling dragons at this point but there are those who refuse to test that are selling dragons that are more than likely infected with a virus that you yourself has stated kills dragons.

In my opinion many are getting stuck on one persons test results and clouding the real issue which is selling infected dragons. It seems that the real issue is getting deflected with smoke and mirrors. The point is no one really knows the extent to how dangerous the virus is, many do agree that it is effecting the health of dragons and is spreading. People are refusing to test their dragons knowing there is a very good possibility that they have infected dragons and they are selling these dragons. Hopefully Denise will post proof and does have a clean colony and that there is a chance to keep some clean otherwise it is possible that the biggest fear is realized and that is that the virus is so widespread you won't be able to get a clean dragon and the bearded industry as a whole will be devastated. Ironically the one's being questioned are the ones trying to save the bearded business while the big breeders who this could effect the most are ignoring it.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

In my case I had a necropsy done on a 2 1/2 week old and a 6 week old. The cause of death was listed as adenovirus in bearded dragons. I had babies dying and knew that was not normal, so I found the cause then tested my colony to figure out where it originated from. So yes, the necropsies I had performed showed adenovirus and then I proceeded to test my colony.

 

[varnyard]

Otter_23: Here is my issue Bobby the breeders you have spoken up for refuse to test and one has even stated that it is very likely his dragons have been in contact with the virus. Yet you have not questioned them and asked why they continue to sell dragons.

Mark, I can not control what other people do, and if you ask me, I think there is no such thing as a beardie in our market that is virus free. The numbers keep rising, it is a very sad day for the keepers and breeders of these animals.

That said, how many breeders are selling babies as well as raising beardies, not even counting all of the wholesalers and keepers? The BOI would be a full, as well as a lifetime of posting to address everyone of them.

So why would you think that I should address a few, when the facts above remain? JMHO.

 

[Tere Salazar]

Mark, I can not control what other people do, and if you ask me, I think there is no such thing as a beardie in our market that is virus free. The numbers keep rising, it is a very sad day for the keepers and breeders of these animals.

That said, how many breeders are selling babies as well as raising beardies, not even counting all of the wholesalers and keepers? The BOI would be a full, as well as a lifetime of posting to address everyone of them.

So why would you think that I should address a few, when the facts above remain? JMHO.

Oh my gosh, Bobby! I actually agree with you! However, just because people are doing it, doesn't make it right.

 

[JimD]

To come on a forum like this and say you are AV free but show no proof is crazy at best. Why would you open yourself up for questioning? Saying that you got a test done that no one else can find any info on is also nuts.
The "other" one who was saying she was AV free was talking all that smack about not posting her results of fear someone would steal it and use it themselves.
What the hell? Thats what she was doing!
I don't think anyone asking for some sort of proof is in the wrong. We DESERVE as breeders/hobbyists to know that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.
And where has she been for the last while? She started this by coming out and stating she was AV free. No one asked her. She should prove it or admit her mistake.
Jim

 

[varnyard]

Oh my gosh, Bobby! I actually agree with you! However, just because people are doing it, doesn't make it right.

No, I also agree, but if there is hope for this hobby it needs to be seen. I can not see why someone would not try to help others that are all in the same boat.

If the tests are negative, then help others with those results.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Let me preface this post by saying not only do I not breed beardies, I have never even owned one. That said, I obviously have no direct interest in this argument,

My comment is on the statements of several regarding statistics, averages and probabilities in this situation only.

I am going to do some paraphrasing to save time so if anyone takes issue with and statements, feel free to correct me.



It has been inferred by more than one person that due to the fact that the captive bred Bearded population is descended from a relatively small original breeding pool, that none, or at least a very small percentage of the current captive population is free of adeno. Unless you are also stating that all or most of the original animals that are the founding stock were infected with Adeno back then, this statement makes absolutely no logical sense. If you are indeed stating that the founder stock were all, or virtually all, infected, then all beardies since the 70's must have had Adeno. You can't have this one both ways.

The statement has also been made that since Denise is the only one to publicly proclaim her colony Adeno free, her statements are suspect since all others that have tested have had at least some positive test results. Has no one but me ever heard of a Bell Curve? If you take as a given that at least a significant portion of CB Beardies are Adeno free, then the Laws of Probability not only say a virus free colony is possible, it is entirely probable.

I personally do not know Denise at all. I have no way of knowing the veracity of her statements. However, given what has been posted as "evidence" so far, statements like the one below drawing final conclusions smack of witch hunt without any real evidence of wrongdoing

There is one more pulling this same stunt, however that one will not get the chance to run with hers either. I am all over that one as well.

 

[varnyard]

John, you can bet if it is a scam, I will be all over it. I can not stand it when people can not tell the truth.

Vickie called them, this is what they told her:

Originally Posted by Dachiu
PLEASE NOTE :
California Avian Laboratory is a diagnostic and consultative support for avian/exotic veterinarians ONLY. It has been requested by them that no one contact them directly - but instead please have your veterinarian contact them with any questions on the testing methods available through their lab.


However, they do not offer atadenovirus testing for bearded dragons.

Originally Posted by Saladragon: Funny, Vickie, that's not what they told me yesterday morning when I called them.

After finally getting fed up with the attacks on Denise, I asked her for the name of the lab, called them, and was informed that YES they do PCR testing for bearded dragons, only through a vet. The man I spoke with was not very happy with me calling, and made that very clear to me.

Perhaps the person you spoke with was tired of the lab being harassed for Denise's test results and NOT information about the testing they offer...despite what is being told to everyone on here?

Originally Posted by: draggintails I have never called this lab, but I did call Studio City Animal Hospital one time and one time only ...looking for a lab, NEVER asking for anyone's test results...there are actually people interested in doing this test...a breeder in Yorba Linda wants a vet that will pull blood and do this test......that hospital called me several times with no luck.

The people wanting to test this way...your dragon has to have a systematic infection for the detection of the virus with this blood test....this test is unreliable to detect adenovirus in a dragon without viremia circulating through the blood.

Cat_72: I already spoke with my vet, and he will be letting me know tomorrow what they are offering as well.

The truth will be out real soon, but here is their service guide.

California Avian Laboratory:

http://www.californiaavianlaboratory.com/Cal Profiles 2-2006nf.pdf

 

[shrap]

This is the only problem I really have with this picture. To make the claim to be the only one of two that had clean tests on this virus, IMO needs to be backed up with facts.

I agree whole heartedly!! And the day she advertises to have Adeno free babies for sale is the day she owes proof to the general public.

Until then she dont owe you, me or anyone else a damn thing Bobby. I know if I was at the other end of your witch hunt and was getting attacked the way you are her, I would most likely tell you to go.... well you know what I would tell you. And I would do it to your face.

You people came out attacking her from the get go. No one came to her in a professional manner. You came with torches and pitchforks and then try and turn it around on her as not being professional. Please.

 

[varnyard]

This is the first time she was asked that i know of:

Dachiu: Denise,
Could you please let us know what lab your vet used to run the swab and blood PCR that you had done on your dragons? I dont want to see your results - I just want to know which lab was used.

Thanks in advance for this info,
Vickie

This was an attack?

This was her answer the very first time:

Denisebme: One word. No. After I posted my Vet information to this forum I was informed by my Vet that people were calling her office to try to get information about me. I have an obligation and a responsibility to provide my test results and a means to verify them to people considering buying from me, but I have NO obligation to put my information on a public forum, it just seems to encourage people to attempt to violate my privacy.

Sammy, maybe you need to go back and reread again. What you stated above is far from fact.

 

[Tere Salazar]

This is the first time she was asked that i know of:



This was an attack?

This was her answer the very first time:




Sammy, maybe you need to go back and reread again. What you stated above is far from fact.

No, Bobby...that was the first time she was asked publicly. What you're leaving out is that someone has been calling her vet claiming to be her, in an attempt to get her test results. This started back in January, shortly after Denise made her first public post that she had an Adeno free breeding colony. And no...I'm not accusing anyone directly because nobody seems to know who that was, including me.

By the time Vickie asked her publicly, she had already been made aware that her test results were being requested. Again, notice I'm saying TEST RESULTS...not what lab, or what was testing had been conducted.

 

[varnyard]

No, Bobby...that was the first time she was asked publicly. What you're leaving out is that someone has been calling her vet claiming to be her, in an attempt to get her test results. This started back in January, shortly after Denise made her first public post that she had an Adeno free breeding colony. And no...I'm not accusing anyone directly because nobody seems to know who that was, including me.

By the time Vickie asked her publicly, she had already been made aware that her test results were being requested. Again, notice I'm saying TEST RESULTS...not what lab, or what was testing had been conducted.

I do not know about any of that, it was after that question was asked that I got involved.

However, Vickie did not ask her for her results or her vets info, she only asked for the lab they used. She was also very respectful in her question.

 

[Jim O]

The fact that some babies died as a result of infection would indicate that acute infection may be a problem with susceptible dragons or with certain strains of the virus (of which there are many).

I still wonder where all the dead dragons are. The 10-15% of Wendy's offspring from one year notwithstanding, where are they? Are any large breeders having similar die-off rates?

 

[shrap]

Please Bobby. What I stated is STONE COLD FACT. She politely gave a legitimate answer and from then on YOU labeled her a liar and have attacked her up one side and down the other. WITH NO PROOF. Nothing but speculation. SPECULATION Bobby.

Everything I said is a fact.

 

[varnyard]

Please Bobby. What I stated is STONE COLD FACT. She politely gave a legitimate answer and from then on YOU labeled her a liar and have attacked her up one side and down the other. WITH NO PROOF. Nothing but speculation. SPECULATION Bobby.

This is (politely) Sammy?

Everything I said is a fact.
Denisebme: One word. No. After I posted my Vet information to this forum I was informed by my Vet that people were calling her office to try to get information about me. I have an obligation and a responsibility to provide my test results and a means to verify them to people considering buying from me, but I have NO obligation to put my information on a public forum, it just seems to encourage people to attempt to violate my privacy.

Like I said the truth will be out soon, If I was wrong I will be the first to admit it.