Inquiry: MKR: Morph King Reptiles

[BoaMan Jon]

I can honestly say that I was out of line there. For that I'm sorry.

I'm just trying to offer an outsider's view.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but in a less vulgar reiteration of what I was trying to get across, is that I've been to a lot of BIG shows in the last few years and it seem like everyone is trying to sell BP morphs taking away from what I'm really there to find. There are a WHOLE lot of really involved and excited herpeculturist also out there (in fact, they are probably the majority) that just really don't consider BPs to be that interesting of a captive, whether it's bright orange, black, white or whatever... SO they simply aren’t selling.

Demand is going way down and thusly the prices are not starting to reflect that.

 

[BoaMan Jon]

I wish you could edit posts here...

'not' should be 'now' in that last sentence.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Being a good businessperson is about a win-win transaction. The seller has the right to put any price tag on his item as long as he finds a market for it. But when he knows that willingly takes advantage of the buyer that’s a whole different story. Regardless of the species, selling animals for $2,000 and a few months later selling the same animals for $800 is wrong. I’m talking here about the same person, not about those that followed the market trend. Those wouldn’t stay in business for long, if they stubbornly maintained “inflated” prices when others are undercutting them. The complaint is not so much for MKR selling Mojaves for $800, the issue is that they have sold them for three times as much a few months earlier! I don’t buy the claims of eliminating the middleman, making morphs affordable to everyone, etc. In my opinion it was just a miscalculation of what the market would bear. They found out too late that selling 50 Mojaves for $2,000 each was an impossible feat. But selling them for $800 instead was possible, and a sudden cash influx of $40,000 for something that’s not moving, and is generating expenses instead makes sense strictly from a business standpoint. But then again there was a second issue that was not pondered and that was the reaction of the general public and their previous clients to such a move. MKR did what they thought was best for their interests. They needed cash and had merchandise that was not moving. In spite of all what Joe has been saying openly about crashing the market, etc. I don’t believe "he" will do it.

 

[old guy]

many post/ many pages but my .02 cents

the 2 , 3 things I hate most in life > car salesmen ( shopping for used cars ), cell phone providers, and internet providers. In my opinion MKR are all of the above in tactics of : we are the best, we love what we do, we have the best prices, we have the best in sales and or product, blah, blah, blah. Is it wrong in thinking of the American way of making monies or an adventure of being a self made entrepreneur scenario although most of their work was already done ( as far as I can see ) except for an investment and then proceeded with having a lot of product to produce more product and or different product. Also in my opinion, the video is just trying to sell themselves. Again, probably nothing wrong with this as the American way. But I HAVE a problem with any product pushing salesman and or what seems to be a info-mercial and believe me that this MKR TV is just that ( my opinion again ).
They will push themselves out of the market soon as every other reptile investment has been done in terms of saturation. The wheel of what they believe will cause other breeders to drop prices ( anybody here old enough to remember the GAS wars of the late 60ties and early 70ties ? ). Saturation will be achieved as it is here now on BPs. You can sale and produce only so many things and products that is not deemed as " necessary " to the buying public on anything. I mean I've been around long enough to see it happen to > burm pythons, iguanas, leopard geckos, bearded dragons, the gray-banded kingsnake, etc. While we are at it, as long as I have been in the " bizz ", how come I know of no PRE-EXISTING venue of either of these guys ? I hear > blah, blah, blah ! Sales ? Seems that I know of very, VERY few people that have bought from MKR.
BPs are a fad, a wave, a seem to be a younger generation wants. This is my observation of several reptiles shows here lately.
Not to lead anybody over there but, try the largest reptile web-site and go to the classifieds. See where the main thrust of animals for sale is at around 500 of BP and no other classified for sale animals even comes close to that number. Do ya think as I do that something is wrong here ?
Wonder when MKR goes under on sales of BP morphs as the saturation goes farther what will be their next investment ? will it be Lamas ? will it be Alpacas ? will it be Ostriches ? will it be Rheas ? will it Buffalo or Beefalo ? Nah ! All of those has been done and breeders have lost their ass on the false predictions of profits. But horses, now that IS an investment !
Will MKR make profits and as much as they say they are or will ? Maybe. short lived ? ..........remember these are all of my own observations and opinions and mine only. And I have other ramblings if this whole story and the proceedings of reptile shows and certain reptile sales including BPs but I'm done for now...........

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus Haley, How can you call me a hypocrite? I am selling mojaves for $895.00 dont you see all the ads for $650.00-$750.00 how am I crashing the mojave market? as Brian B. of BHB enterprises said, I will follow the market down, But I will not lead it. I echo that statement, the damage has already been done and the prices will never recover. am I expected to keep my prices inflated to keep you happy? it is very clear to me now, that when a couple of sellers deciede to lower the prices of a bp morph. others must follow or your overpriced ball python will just not sell. whats wrong with me trying to be competitive.

You're not *really* a hypocrite given the timeline and your one snake is obviously not crashing anything, it was a hyperbolic statement intended to exaggerate a valid point. Your prices have gotten lower and the animal still hasn't sold as of the last time you updated that ad. If, as a hypothetical, someone were to call and offer you seven hundred can you say honestly that you wouldn't consider it? How about in a week when it still hasn't sold at nine? Or a week after that?

Regardless of the species, selling animals for $2,000 and a few months later selling the same animals for $800 is wrong. I’m talking here about the same person, not about those that followed the market trend. Those wouldn’t stay in business for long, if they stubbornly maintained “inflated” prices when others are undercutting them. The complaint is not so much for MKR selling Mojaves for $800, the issue is that they have sold them for three times as much a few months earlier!

Advertising them for $2000 a few months earlier. Listing them at a given price doesn't always mean they're moving at that price. Someone had pointed out to me a series of MKR ads over on reptileauctions where the mojave prices were dropping by about one hundred dollars a week, I'd assume because they didn't sell or didn't sell in sufficient volume at the higher price. They may have been coming down from that $2000 figure slowly like that the entire time, seeing slow or weak sales at the higher prices and have been looking for that magic number that the public would latch onto the entire time... Only one of the guys from MKR could answer that and I doubt, after their earlier conduct on this thread, that anyone would take their word at face value.

From the position of running a business, they have made some very smart decisions and then subsequently handled the complaints of their competition in a manner that was completely inappropriate. If someone had accused them of "crashing the market" and someone as a representative for the company had shown up and pointed out that they had animals which weren't selling at the higher prices and politely and reasonabally detailed how, why and when they dropped their prices and if they had conducted themselves a little better... I doubt this thread would be this long and this unresolved. It's an important object lesson in finding the approriate time and place to act like a jackass.

 

[ravensgait]

Now here is a quote that explains alot Ed you said this"" am I expected to keep my prices inflated to keep you happy?"" Randy

 

[critical bill]

Viagra Reptiles.....are prices are hard to beat. Please see your physician if you cant decide we have the best prices for longer than 8 hours.

 

[critical bill]

are = our

 

[shrap]

Now here is a quote that explains alot Ed you said this"" am I expected to keep my prices inflated to keep you happy?"" Randy

Are you a professional writer Randy? Like for a newspaper? Taking quotes, twisting them, and using them completely out of context is a skill that is in very high demand in todays media. You should look into it.

Kinda funny how many (including myself) have no problem with MKR selling their animals for what they want, but many of those same people seem to have issues with others (like they do with Ed) for selling theirs for what they want. Hypocrites.

 

[Ed Clark]

Seamus Haley, Thank you for a rational responce, about your hypothetical question asking me if I would consider taking a $700.00 offer on that mojave that is priced at $895.00 no I would not, I would just keep it. you see I dont have 50 of those that I have got to sell, I have only a couple and I enjoy them so much, I do not mind if they dont sell. I dropped my prices on these just to try and stay in line with everyone else. im not going to reduce the mojaves down to where some of the sellers are at, It just dont make sence to try and blow them out just to make a quick buck.I do this only for the love of the hobby.

__________________
ED CLARK

 

[Ed Clark]

Randy, I have asked you before, do you have anything of substance to add.

All that you are doing is taking shots.

CLOACA, get it.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Kinda funny how many (including myself) have no problem with MKR selling their animals for what they want, but many of those same people seem to have issues with others (like they do with Ed) for selling theirs for what they want. Hypocrites.

I brought up Ed's lowerish price to illustrate a point- if an animal doesn't sell at two grand, a dealer has the option of sitting on it for the rest of it's life, taking up space, using electricity, food and some measure of time and effort... or reducing the price until they find that acceptible ground that the customers become receptive towards. It'll take awhile for a ball morph to hit a point where it's eaten more money in rats than it's potential selling price but it is certainly a possibility if stock remains unsold for longer periods of time. It may not be a concept that some of the guys dealing with ball morphs have really given strong consideration to since prior to this point, the selling price was so far above the maintenence cost that it was a non-issue... but corn and cal king breeders definitely understand what I'm talking about, since a six month old animal has eaten twice it's retail value in mice.

Ed was simply an example of someone who had lowered his price to remain competitive and who was also vocal about his opinions of the market and MKR's role in it's most recent and somewhat abrupt fluxuation. He's got a few real nice looking animals that he's advertising on the classifieds here, including the mojave ad that caught my eye... and it looks like he may have a little bit of trouble moving it because the mindset of the customers has adjusted and they now "know" that the morph can be had at a lower price. He's said that he doesn't need to make an immediate sale and that's fine- he's got the option but even he hinted that having fifty animals of the same morph might make that waiting game a bit less easy. Fifty animals eating fifty rats, in fifty heated tubs needing to be cleaned and given enough attention to ensure they remain healthy can start to eat into profit margins a lot LOT faster than one animal will. If they're not selling at a given price over a period of time, lowering the price till a dealer finds a number the customer pool is willing to accept is a reasonable choice. The same way Ed couldn't hope for a sale if he kept his price at $2000+, maybe MKR couldn't either. They certainly had produced enough animals to be able to fufill the needs of a pretty good chunk of customers and perhaps to assume that the market at a certain price plateau was saturated.

In the end, the people or companies that do the volume breeding are going to direct the price of a given species, morph, locale, gender, age and what have you... I do not mean that it's a conscious act in most cases, but they have enough potential sales to get a more complete idea of what the level of consumer interest is than someone producing a couple clutches who'd be just as happy keeping the animals as personal pets. The rest of the market and all it's associated niches either follows suit or suddenly finds themselves fairly unsuccessful. I'm really not sure why ball breeders found this to be a surprise, might be because it was a little slower in coming due to clutch size, might be because interest has remained so high for so long due to new variants and combinations... it might be because a few of the more prominent ball breeders have hyped the species up as a way to get rich quick (I didn't attend Daytona this year, but wasn't there some kind of lecture or panel discussion about how balls were some kind of risk free surefire money making investment? Why isn't anyone nailing THOSE liars to the wall for causing this situation where the public is apparantly so misinformed about the financial realities?) and have filled every website, magazine and herp society with these unrealistic hopes for investment returns.

 

[JunglePaul]

Great post, Seamus. Intelligent, and on point.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Why isn't anyone nailing THOSE liars to the wall for causing this situation where the public is apparantly so misinformed about the financial realities?) and have filled every website, magazine and herp society with these unrealistic hopes for investment returns.

Simply put because they are still a very good return in your investment. Paying $700 for a co-dominant morph is not at all bad, at least in my eyes. Considering you can breed him in a year to $350 females and produce maybe 4-5 babies from each. Even if you face a 100% reduction in market prices in one year you can probably double your investment in dollars. How many other business opportunities give you such an option? Work in what you like and double your money in approximately 12 months? The difference is that a few months ago it was outrageous, and now is still incredibly good!

Regards

 

[Seamus Haley]

Simply put because they are still a very good return in your investment. Paying $700 for a co-dominant morph is not at all bad, at least in my eyes. Considering you can breed him in a year to $350 females and produce maybe 4-5 babies from each. Even if you face a 100% reduction in market prices in one year you can probably double your investment in dollars. How many other business opportunities give you such an option? Work in what you like and double your money in approximately 12 months? The difference is that a few months ago it was outrageous, and now is still incredibly good!

Regards

I think it's the "surefire" part that bothers me and the tendency to avoid mentioning the inevitable price drops that occur over time when selling buyers on an investment morph. While they're still a solid investment and have been a solid investment for more than a few years- it seemed to me, as a moderately interested nonparticipant that the animals are often hyped as retaining their full value. With examples given along the lines of "Buy this animal for X dollars and in two years, sell fifteen offspring for X dollars each, that's a 15X profit!" Instead of "Buy this animal for X dollars and in two years sell fifteen offspring for Y dollars each, where Y is an unknown number <X that varies depending on market saturation, customer interest levels and the number of other dealers all in competition with you."

While a buyer should try to be aware of the potential risks inherent in their purchase if profit is the goal... a few of the volume ball breeders tend to be dishonest about the likely returns and I believe that this kept prices a bit artificially inflated for a period of time. Gave the whole thing a sort of flea market mentality, where a dealer wanting a certain return would price their animal above it, expecting buyers to haggle them down.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Boidsmith says:

The difference is that a few months ago it was outrageous, and now is still incredibly good!

How true. And how true Sammy's note that:

Kinda funny how many (including myself) have no problem with MKR selling their animals for what they want, but many of those same people seem to have issues with others (like they do with Ed) for selling theirs for what they want.

Whether "incredibly good", or just Joe exercising his competitive freedom to sell for whatever price he wants, a core group of very American capitalists have recognized Joe's (and Ed's) choices exactly as that ... their's to make. In the meantime, several others seem to want to debate whether Joe, or now Ed, are jerks or not. What a pathetic waste of time so much of that has been ! I have a good laugh with those posters who basically say that they will "spend $200 more elsewhere so as not to support Joe the Jerk" !! Well, if your vote with your $ had any influence on Joe .... it does not ..... he's just going to have to lower his prices more ... long gone from being Dan's rendition of being "outrageously good" or "incredibly good" ... and maybe <sob... sniff sniff> just good! Sorry Joe, but your profits are only going to be good. Now that sucks !

 

[Jim O]

Simply put because they are still a very good return in your investment. Paying $700 for a co-dominant morph is not at all bad, at least in my eyes. Considering you can breed him in a year to $350 females and produce maybe 4-5 babies from each. Even if you face a 100% reduction in market prices in one year you can probably double your investment in dollars. How many other business opportunities give you such an option? Work in what you like and double your money in approximately 12 months? The difference is that a few months ago it was outrageous, and now is still incredibly good!

Dan,

A 100% reduction results in a sales price of zero so that would not be incredibly good at all. If I understand your point, you mean a 50% reduction (from $700 to $350).

 

[The BoidSmith]

Dan,

A 100% reduction results in a sales price of zero so that would not be incredibly good at all. If I understand your point, you mean a 50% reduction (from $700 to $350).

Yes, it was a typo, I meant 50% reduction; from $700 to $350.

Regards.

 

[ravensgait]

Shrap now how was that simple quote twisted?? It is an exact quote of what the guy said nothing more.


Ed you keep whining that's enough to bother most people, the incessant whining. You attacked the guy and now act all defensive because he came back at ya.
Ed have you ever done business with the guy? I know you have said you have not. So why is it that you keep going on about MKR? I think the guys an ass from what he wrote just in this forum . I can say the same for you ,people kept telling Joe to shut up they should have added you to that warning. Ya came off here as a little whinny kid crying about the big ol bad bully. Enough already we figured out your problem with MKR and Joe in your very first post. IE your worried your not going to make as much on your investment as you had hoped and you blame Joe for it. Randy

 

[ravensgait]

Ed you said ""All that you are doing is taking shots." and just what have you been doing since you started this mess. Remove head from derriere and read what ya wrote just in this thread. then go look at all the other threads where you have been taking shots at Joe and anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

Keep typing Ed I have no snakes business to ruin with my comments where you sure do . So hammer in another nail or should we get Joe back here to help ya out.
Joe blew his own foot off with his asinine comments here but Ed your foot is looking pretty mangled. Randy