Inquiry: MKR: Morph King Reptiles

[evansnakes]

I think you guys are kind of short on some facts. MKR did not lower the price on their animals to be competitive and they also did not sell one animal as was compared to a piece of property. They sold a large number of several morphs at prices much lower than the current market, which had already made it's correction and cycle for the year. Mojaves had dropped from $4000-5000 each, down to $1200-2000 each. They would have sat there for awhile if not for the pissing contest that insued on kingsnake. BUT, others sold 2-4 mojaves. That does not last long or leave a very substantial impression. These guys sold volume and they did it while posting insults and slinging dirt so that everyone knew they were doing it just to hurt other people financialy. Simple. Also, the day they were removed from ks it was told to me by several people that in fact mkr was going to post a large volume of spider balls at $500ea. Ks just beat them to the punch.

Yes, it is also true that one person lowered the price on pins, also to screw over another breeder, BUT again he did not have that many and did not drop the price nearly as cheap.

I talk to and do business with real people with real jobs every day who are having a tough time making enough money to pay their bills in this junk ecomony, especially here in Michigan. They took a few thousand of that hard earned money and put it into ball pythons to have a small extra income. It is now that they go to sell their first babies from the snakes they bought and some idiot has dropped the price in a three month period down to 10% of what it was! Is that sinking in? 10%!!!! You want to drop your animals down lower than your competitors but in a 3 month period to go to 105 of what they were selling for? How can you defend that behavior on volume sales to the public?

I was at shows and on the net and watched many many spiders and mojaves sell for double what they posted and planned to post those animals at. Now they are nearly worthless. The drop that would have happened next year happened this year on top of this years already existing market correction. It is a never ending spiral. After they post that price you have 2 guys that were at $1000 each on mojaves jump down to $725 and $625 to compete with them. I would like to hear from one person who bought in at $5000 on mojaves say that it is fine and that it does not screw them.

 

[jnjreptile]

JnJReptile... Not sure what your saying about Ed "being someone who sells Ian's animals" .. Take a step back , know what your talking about before you speak... you seem like you just repeat hear-say from others.. and have not a clue how things work..

Anyone can buy an "unopened" crate of Ch balls , and sell the "abberants" that I have seen you post....

Ive looked at Eds ads , and i see nice animals. If you think hes the only person or the first person selling a Caramel at $4500 think again...Josh/Jen dont use Kingsnake Classifieds as your basis , MANY things happen behind the scenes.

MKR wasnt the sole reason for price dropping , and anyone who saw this market7-8 years ago knows that.

Derek

We never said Ed didn't have nice animals. He said all we do is buy imported crap which is bull. He shouldn't be saying things that are false.

As far as him selling Ian's animals, I don't care. More than one person has nice animals.

I know MKR isn't the reason for price dropping. That is what I am trying to explain to ed.

As far as unopened crates, we hand-pick our C.H animals and other than that we buy from private breeders.

I am just asking a simple question that just doesn't seem to be getting answered.

What is the difference between Ed selling Carmel albinos for $4500 and MKR selling Mojave's for $800?

Mojave's are easy to come by, not Carmel albinos. So I don't see why Ed has such a probelm with MKR.

I don't say hear say from others. I have only been speaking about personal experience with MKR, and quoting ed on what he was saying.

 

[evansnakes]

The 105 should have been 10%, I must have missed the shift key

 

[Royal Variations Ltd]

Ed,

I do not hate you! I have not ever said that I hate you. Yes, we do disagree! and yes that is fine.

If you are going to sell animals for considreably less than their market value then at least do not point fingers at others who sell animals for less than what you think they are worth.

In any business if you under sell to one client and then sell the exact same thing to another client for more money eventually you will piss alot of people off. Mood of the day is not a good excuse for selling at different prices to different people. I do not respect that. If someone purchases alot of animals from you as a package, then of course you can give them a discount.

I do not hate you. "Can you feel the love?"

 

[David Reid]

There is a big difference!

Selling 50 Mojaves for half what everyone else is selling them for and selling your last Caramel for $4500 is not even in the same ball park. Everyone has sales, to move out a few last animals. But 50 animals constitutes a DUMP, not a sale. I will be the first to say it, I will not buy animals from the people who dumped the Mojaves, OR the people who bought the dumped Mojaves. Let's see how good that $800 deal really is, when you try to sell your offspring for $200 each. If I do not sell a single Ball this year or for the next 10 years, it does not matter to me. I am SMALL TIME. I sell my animals for about market, and have sales on males, which I do not need to hold back, but I would never DUMP animals.

 

[jnjreptile]

Ed,

I do not hate you! I have not ever said that I hate you. Yes, we do disagree! and yes that is fine.

If you are going to sell animals for considreably less than their market value then at least do not point fingers at others who sell animals for less than what you think they are worth.

In any business if you under sell to one client and then sell the exact same thing to another client for more money eventually you will piss alot of people off. Mood of the day is not a good excuse for selling at different prices to different people. I do not respect that. If someone purchases alot of animals from you as a package, then of course you can give them a discount.

I do not hate you. "Can you feel the love?"

Well said!!

If you are going to sell animals for considreably less than their market value then at least do not point fingers at others who sell animals for less than what you think they are worth.

Above is what I have been trying to say all along.


Jen @ J&J Reptiles.

 

[Ed Clark]

Jen, you have it all wrong, MKR is the main reason of the price drop.

You ask me why im so upset at MKR for them dropping the price of mojaves.You put out 40k as an investment in mojaves at 5k a pop.then have MKR kill the price on them just to try to hurt another breeder that they do not like, and thats the kind of business that you and josh want to support.

You keep running your mouth about the $7500.00 caramels. just buy the females at $4500.00 and make $3000.00 on each one. you know the market better than me. so show me how to make the money on these caramels.

 

[Wilomn]

Just because some of you wouldn't do a certain thing, be what ever you wish it to be, does not make it wrong for someone else to do that thing.

I'm not sure of the Brotherhood of the Ball Guidelines and what all goes into their price fixing formula BUT, I do know that no one of us has the right to tell any other one of us what he can or can't sell his snakes for.

IF some little guys got screwed because of it, well, crap happens. There are NO guarentees. I never saw any guarentees. Where did any of you see guarentees? Were there some posted on some secret Brotherhood site that not all of us have access too?

The milk is spilt, the cows have escaped, the deed is done.

There are some not very nice people out there. There always have been there always will be.

There are not very nice things happening to people daily. There always have been there always will be.

ALWAYS.

 

[Royal Variations Ltd]

Your customers are your customers, Do with them as you like. You can not please everyone. I do not know of one breeder that has not pissed someone off some how along the way. I will conclude this topic of conversation with this comment.

Regardless of our differences on whom to purchase from and what prices should be. First and foremost, We are caretakers of amazing animals. If you care for your animals and respect them first as a Royal Python Breeder or Hobbyist then that is pretty damn good.

 

[JunglePaul]

Wow! This thread has blown up! LOL!
I posted my personal experiences with Morph King, and more specifically, Wes, whom I've known for many years. As far as Joe stating in another forum (which I never knew existed), that he planned on crashing the ball market and running everyone out of business in the process, I have to say that was a very foolish thing to say, if indeed it were true. I hope it was said out of frustration, but having not seen the original message/thread I can't really form an opinion.

Some great points have been made here, and most of them have genuine honesty and merit. The people that have had great experiences, myself included, only have that to base their opinion on. While the retail competition takes an entirely different view, or so it would appear.

Evan, whom I've done business with in the past, (GREAT guy to deal with, I will add!), makes some excellent points regarding real world economics and the reality of sinking a lot of money into something that is now worth very little in regards to a return on said investment.

As a hobbyist, with no intention of breeding other than for the fun of it, and from that perspective I see nothing wrong with lowering the prices on certain morphs to appease the masses who also work hard for their money and can't afford several thousand dollar snakes. Which is why I like Morph King's approach to some degree.

The problem may lie in the outrageously high values we place on these snakes in the first place. But that is another debate in itself.

 

[jnjreptile]

Ed,
I understand why you are upset about paying that much for your Mojave's and now they are $800-$1500. But I am not the only one that has said MKR isn't the sole reason for price dropping.

I think it is great you are selling the Carmel albinos for $4500. It gives the small breeders a chance.

I don not and never will agree with anyone who says they are just here to take down the small breeders.

I was just speaking my personal experience with MKR. It has been nothing but positive and he has done nothing but help us, not take us down.

I am not on here to diss anyone. I just had a simple question.

But hey, I am not into dragging this on forever. I guess in a way I got my answer. In a way it is good that this discussion has come up because there has been a lot of eye openers and good questions asked and answered.

Jen @ J&J Reptiles

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I know that this is a little off topic but I have to ask.....Joe Capone is 37 years old? Damn! That must have been a rough 37 years

 

[JunglePaul]

Wilomn makes some great points as well.

When buying a new morph you are guaranteed an OPPORTUNITY, but NOT guaranteed a particular outcome.

 

[Ed Clark]

Jen, the mojaves were coming down slowly like they should have, MKR pushed them down faster to hurt someone.thats the facts of the matter.

John, your right joe capone looks bad for a 37 year old man. the reason being that, he never worked a day in his life. his mother handed him everything on a silver platter.

And this bald headed little_____ was going to rip me apart. hahaha
Jasballs you can insert your word in the blank.

 

[Hues1]

One things for sure.....

People who are considered to be the best in ANY industry/business are acknowledged to be the best by their peers, customers, and sometimes even their competitors. They dont have the need to self proclaim it because everyone else is already doing it for them.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

One things for sure.....

People who are considered to be the best in ANY industry/business are acknowledged to be the best by their peers, customers, and sometimes even their competitors. They dont have the need to self proclaim it because everyone else is already doing it for them.

You have given out too much karma in the last 24 hours, try again later.

As far as Joe stating in another forum (which I never knew existed), that he planned on crashing the ball market and running everyone out of business in the process, I have to say that was a very foolish thing to say, if indeed it were true. I hope it was said out of frustration, but having not seen the original message/thread I can't really form an opinion.

He said it here, many times, in this forum.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87630

 

[Mike P.]

I've been following this and the other thread for days now - What bothers me JOE, is that somewhere in the past, you forgot your roots - Are you not a disciple of an Italian family that came to this country to live the American Dream ?

Perhaps you got financed into the high dollar realm of the business, to where most have not and started from the ground up, with many years of hard work.

Yet you come in here with the mentality that "I am King of the Ball Python World", - Did you work for it or did the money fall into your hands ?

Do you not see how people read your arrogance with what you come on here and post, as it's quite clear " You certainly make it that way" - You are king of the world like Al Pacchino in Scarface, but lets remember what happened to him in the end.

I am very happy to say that I have not bought ANY snakes from you, and never will as I hope most would not after they come on a public BOI and read your bullshit - Your own mouth is burning your own empire and will crumble one day because of your arrogance - Get your 10k back, and get lost along with your disciples you've paid to come on here and get your back - Their backing of you has also lost any interest I would have with purchases from them so they will hurt from me as well.

Does my purchase or lack thereof hurt their business ? - Not at all - Does it effect all the people who come on here looking for inquires ? - You bet your ass it does

Continue doing business as you do, and remember where it all started - One day you will be starting from the ground up again and your customers will be selling you back the snakes they bought from you for 10% of what they bought them from you for.

In a nutshell - You are pretty pathetic Joe - Sad to know you are of Italian Origin - With a name like Capone, how can I be wroung

 

[evansnakes]

Paul, thank you. David, I aggree. Alex, when did you become so stoic and mellow?

Wes, you missed my point entirely (if you read my posts). You are saying the same things that I did EXCEPT I am taking it one step further and saying... why would you want to ever buy an animal from these guys for more than $800 when you can see by their actions that there is a good chance they will screw you out of your ability to make a profit the following year on that animal as they have now??? Take the clowns that sell for good money still. They bragged about how many they were producing as they were selling them. So does that mean the $7000 clown this year you buy, they will be selling for $800 and no matter what you produce you are losing money? And certainly how could you ever give your money to them for a dominant mutation?

Anyone can sell anything they want for any price they want to. I have no issue with that. My problem is when somebody does something for the sole purpose of hurting the market, why the hell would you want to give them your money for an investment in that same market they are showing you how much they are willing to torpedo?

 

[Wilomn]

Paul, thank you. David, I aggree. Alex, when did you become so stoic and mellow?

Wes, you missed my point entirely (if you read my posts). You are saying the same things that I did EXCEPT I am taking it one step further and saying... why would you want to ever buy an animal from these guys for more than $800 when you can see by their actions that there is a good chance they will screw you out of your ability to make a profit the following year on that animal as they have now??? Take the clowns that sell for good money still. They bragged about how many they were producing as they were selling them. So does that mean the $7000 clown this year you buy, they will be selling for $800 and no matter what you produce you are losing money? And certainly how could you ever give your money to them for a dominant mutation?

Anyone can sell anything they want for any price they want to. I have no issue with that. My problem is when somebody does something for the sole purpose of hurting the market, why the hell would you want to give them your money for an investment in that same market they are showing you how much they are willing to torpedo?

I got your point Even.

I simply accept that these things will happen no matter what market you are in.

I breed calkings. I produce some great snakes from great parents and I've been doing it for almost 20 years.

There are guys out there, some of them with my bloodlines, no doubt, that sell their babies for 1/2 or less of what I sell mine for.

People who know my snakes, wait for me to produce them. Those same people will buy some of the cheaper guys snakes because they want more animals and to broaden the available genepool they work with. I'm cool with that. I think it TOTALLY sucks that there are so many guys producing calkings and that so many of them sell so cheap just to get rid of the babies. But I just suck it up and move on because there isn't much to be done about it other than keep offering MY quality and service and, this is the good part, my REPUTATION. Like me or hate me, you KNOW my snakes are GOOD.

I suspect it will work out that way in the long run here in the ball world too.

Those with good reputations will keep on selling even if their prices are higher. They may not sell as many as quickly as may have been possible pre MKR, but sell they will.

There is NO requirement that I look out for anyone else when I am selling my stock, and the same is true for MKR.

It is NOT nice, not in any way. It is also not a requirement that I be nice to anyone.

Oh well, nothing any of us say will change anything anyway.

The ball market is in for some serious turmoil.

Has the Brotherhood gotten together and considered buying ALL of MKR's hatchlings and then reselling the babies themselves at what are the Brotherhood Accepted Prices?

That would solve everyone's problems.

 

[evansnakes]

That is bs man. There is no price fixing. I sell my animals for what I want. BUT I also do not screw my customers over. They will not be in this business long doing what they are doing. Do you honestly think that they will ever be let in on the ground floor of a new project? Who would ever sell them the next pin or spider? Nobody will after what they have done to pricing in the market. Anybody can do, say, sell, buy anything they want to, but there are repurcussions for what you say and do. People have long memories and the ones who are not on here talking but have that next project cooking know what is going on. There is a ton of hate for these guys among people who have nothing else in common and would not ever talk to each other except for something like this.

Cal kings are a lousy copmparrison for ball pythons. I could buy cal kings for $15-20 in the 80's in the 90's and still can today. Ball pythons have brought us more genetic potential in a couple years than all other species combined in the past decade. That is why they are so in demand and are such a strong investment.