Inquiry on Golden Serpents...aka Jewell Howard

[Ken Harbart]

Say what you will about Crutchfield, but the fact remains that the state of herpetoculture today wouldn't be anything close to what it is now were it not for Tom Crutchfield.

Indeed, Crutchfield's violations of the law were inexcusable. Then again, I also find that the prosecution, along with USFWS, was a tad malicious in their persecution of the case.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

here is the email

This is the message that SEAN the seeming concerned citizen.



This message is not flagged. [ Flag Message - Mark as Unread ]

Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:48:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "Sean B" <[email protected]> | This is Spam | Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: Message about: 1.2 CBB ADULT PROVEN BREEDING GROUP GOINI KINGS PICTURES!
To: "j howard" <[email protected]>




Jewell,

What is the price for her without shipping?

Sean

--- j howard <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Sean yes you can pick her up. What day will you be
> down here?
> I will not be at the pit sunday but will be at Mr
> Mendenhalls helping with surgery on a carpet python.
> But you are welcome to call me on my cell phone
> (352-603-3899) when you get close to ocala.
> Cash is fine.
> Jewell
>


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[Mike and Erica @ MotherGecko]

Well with all this fiasco aside I would like to add some real fact to this thread. The fact being I HAVE purchased animals from Jewell @ Golden Serpent. The animals I obtained were all quality animals that I got at a fair price. Jewell stands behind the animals she sells, and with that I wouldn't hesitate to do business with her anytime. If you would like any more information about any transaction I have had with Jewell by all means feel free to ask. Thanks Mike

 

[Sean Belanger]

Neil...Jewell...I posted this because I simply wanted others opinions and because I wanted to hear what other's experiences have been with Jewell. I said nothing bad about either of you. I only stated facts. And the facts are you both posted ads with the same animals for different prices. I emailed you both before I posted this yet I still wanted to hear what other people had to say. But your reactions to this post speak louder than anyone else can say. Thank you both for your time and information but basd on the replies to this post, I feel it is best I do my business elsewhere.

Sean Belanger

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Sean.... Like you've got a choice???....
You TRY to play Jewell and I against each other to TRY and get a much better price on the Goini's? When it didn't work, you pull THIS CRAP??
I'm sure Amazon would LOVE to get your business, because I don't need (or want) customers like you! ENJOY!....

....Neil

 

[Seamus Haley]

A bit of clarification?

There's just one point I'm a bit confused on here...

Does Sean know both Neil and Jewell?

By which I mean, has he met both of them, talked to both of them, interacted or performed transactions to a degree that should have allowed him to know that Jewell works directly for Neil and given him an understanding of the situation?

If Sean does not know both Neil and Jewell, then I can see starting the inquirey, although his tone and attitude were perhaps unwarranted given the reputation of both parties he insinuated were performing some sort of misdeed... Heck, if I was selling animals on a larger basis or more frequently online and someone saw an ad identical to mine (same pictures, same description, etc.) I'd appreciate being told about it... But I am not known to have any partners or buisness affiliations and Neil and Jewell certainly are.

If Sean does know both Neil and Jewell and is aware of their buisness relationship, as it seems he may be from some of the comments, then I think there's another issue behind all this, some outside and unspoken motivation for wanting to cause problems (or try to anyway). If that's the case Sean and there's something more substantial than the fact that two people who have access to the same animals both posted them with their own kingsnake ad accounts, then spit it out. Get it out in the open and let everyone know what the problems is exactly, without any nonsense surrounding it. Did Jewell shortchange you for crickets? Did Neil try to stick his hand in your pants late one lonely night at his shop? What exactly is it that motivated you to make the insinuations you did?

As to the issue of people being above questioning... above accusation or above suspicion...

Nobody is. If we start to label people as being beyond reproach or beyond any ability to be questioned about their actions, then we start to form one of those dreaded and (up till now?) imaginary BOI cliques...

I know it seems outrageous that someone would question Neil or Jewells integrity, They, along with a few others down in Tampa have been put through the wringer already and come out looking clean, if that entire previous fiasco didn't crop up any bodies in the closet, it's not likely that anything else will... BUT, the important thing about the BOI and that which makes it work, is that it allows for free exchange of thoughts and ideas, histories, events and opinions... Stating that there are areas of that which are off limits defeats the purpouse of the board.

Neil, Jewell, I understand that it seems ludicrous for this person to start questioning your credibility, especially after, if I took some of the previous posts correctly, you have both spent a good deal of time and energy educating and assisiting this individual with your own time, knowledge and experience, helping him become whatever it is he might be today... But your reputations, the history you both have and the happy customers you've got will ensure that nobody believes anything this apparantly disgruntled individual states without some overwhelming proof... which he doesn't seem to have. There are easily hundreds of positive posts for Neil, perhaps not quite as many for Jewell yet but she gets much of the credit for what the snakepit is and has become so there is a great deal of credibility there as well. I've never personally done any buisness with either of you but based solely off your reputations, if I was so inclined to (or if I did so more frequently) I'd enter into any transaction under any terms suggested without hesitation... Need me to send money or animals first? No problem. Need to wait an extra month on shipping for any reason you feel like? No problem there either, I know I'll get exactly what I paid for and then some and that I'm safe in the transaction. Need me to give Neil half my liver along with an immediate paypal of funds and start walking around with a sandwich board sign advertising the snakepit in exchange for a neonate cornsnake? Not a problem in the least, although I should warn you about the likely condition of the liver...

The point being, let people question you, it will only make them look foolish. Take a look at the thread where some nut-job is trying to rip off Isis Reptiles a few slots up, because of the existing reputation that Isis has, the claims are being dismissed as a load of garbage and the morals of the individual trying to make these claims are being blasted (for good reason too). Your reputation protects you from this sort of thing, no damage was done really, except some people might start looking for Jewell's ads when there are identical ones posted by Neil. Overcome that by perhaps equallizing the prices on offered animals.

Hey Sean, if you do have anything more substantial to say about either Neil or Jewell, go ahead and say it. Just be aware that in order to convince anyone of misdeeds or immoral actions, you need to come up with some actual evidence. If it's just jealousy or you've got your underwear on backwards and were having a bad day, I think you owe them both an apology for your accusations and insinuations.

If someone doesn't mind answering, how old is Sean by the way? I got the impression that he was a bit younger by the way he needed help and guidance, adults will seek it out but it's not usually recurring enough to be spoken of the way Neil spoke of the education and assistance he's apparantly given this person.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

Seamus...thank you

Seamus
Thank you for that post and I would also like to thank
Mike and Erica@ mothergecko
And Mr Pennebaker

I had talked to Sean about three months ago (both in email and on the phone at Neils) about some baby goinis that Neil and I purchased separately from Mr Barr.
I listed my snake(I had one that I have since sold) and Neil still has the two he bought, but Neil had listed them mistakenly as Fla blotched kings and put Goini in the brackets. Sean Jumped his case and in no uncertain terms let him know that the way he listed them they were hybrids.
We understood them to be 100% goini when we bought the snakes and I myself thought that the goini's were a phase of the fla king and it says so in several published books and I had relayed that information to Sean both from Neils email/my email/and over the phone when Sean called the PIT and talked to me.
Sean did send me a research paper from the (I think) University of Fla that refutes the goini being a phase of the fla kingsnaks.
I thanked him and changed my mind about the goini's as he showed me proof of this.
He then asked for our suppliers phone number to talk to him about the goini kings(I got permission from Mr Barr as I do not give people info out) and he called him and talked to him,
This whole time he was (according to Neil) also talking to Neil and getting information from him also.
The whole point here is that HE KNOWS WE WORK TOGETHER (HE ASKED ME WHAT MY AND NEILS RELATIONSHIP WAS AND I TOLD HIM< I MANAGE HIS STORE< PERIOD) HE ALSO KNOWS WE EITHER ACQUIRE OUR ANIMALS(THE SAME KIND) AT THE SAME TIME OR IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES LIST THE SAME ANIMALS TO APPEAL TO BOTH OUR AUDIENCES (IHAVE MY CUSTOMERS AND HE HAS HIS) TO TRY AND SELL THEM QUICKLY AS THEY ARE CONSIGNMENTS OR WE HAVE MORE COMING IN AND WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE SPACE.
Everyone is welcome to ask both of us if it is the same animals sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.
For example I buy four hogg island boas (I then sell two to Neil, he has every right to put his two on line for what ever price he wants to...and conversely I have the right(I paid for my own account) to list the two remaining hogg islands I have for sale.
It is not always a case of we have the exact animal(LIKE THE GOINI"S) but merely that we have the same type as it is cheaper for me to buy three or four of a type than it is for me to buy two of them. Anybody who does business in the reptile world knows this.
Jewell

 

[Rainbowboaman]

Jewell,
You asked if im stupid, lets reiterate the inquiry here. Neil got caught with trying to bilk the public out of an extra $120.00 by selling the same snakes under different names for different prices claiming one is wholesale & one is retail but both ads were placed in the regular section on K.S. by having ads running a WHOLE day apart (Now thats genius) & your questioning my IQ? Your claiming that Sean had ulterior motives for posting but to anyone reading this post he's doing a great justice by notifying readers of the savings of $120.00. If anyone else would of tried same stunt Neil would crucify them but it's ok if he does this. Seamus your right about it seeming outrageous that someone would question Neil's integrity because we all know about Neil's great reputation like of claiming a snake was stolen while it was sitting in his freezer (which was admitted by him after he was questioned on it) or him being the first person to lose his posting privileges on the BOI. Jewell as to not have this embarrassing situation happen in the future & since your WHOLESALING anyhow maybe you should place your ads in the commercial section on K.S.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

Chris

Chris
First of all We were NOT...let me repeat if for you if you did not understand NOT NOT NOT trying to bilk/milk/or misrepresent or hide or steal or anything of that sneaky nature.
I stated in my ad that I PLACED THE DAY BEFORE I TOOK THEM TO THE PIT...that I was selling them for someone else...and due to the high amount of money he wanted for them I asked Neil to put them on line also since he was more likely to get a higher price for them than me.
AND IF IT IS TOO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND ...NEIL WAS NOT MAKING A WHOLE 120.00 HE HAD TO PAY SHIPPING AND HANDLING AND THE DREADED PAYPAL OR CREDIT CARD FEES AND THEY HAVE BEEN FED>SO AFTER ALL THIS IS PAID THE HORRIBLE RETAIL MAN WOULD HAVE MADE A WHOLE 50.00 FOR THIS SALE.
Can you sell your snakes for no profit at all Chris if so let me buy some so I can make a little money on them because this is not my HOBBY this is my living...
And you are a moron you continue to try and make this look like a criminal act...I could give a crap what other(that is other) people have done...it is not me or my house or my business and stop trying to make it look like I am responsible for any other peoples actions
And I dont sell strictly wholesale but also sell at shows and a lower end retail. I dont have the expenses that Neil does and like we all stated before we have a right to advertise and sell what ever animals we have and for whatever price we want///heres a concept for you...IF YOU DONT LIKE THE PRICE DONT BUY IT!!!!
Nobody forced you to buy anything or even look at the ad.
If we were doing something shady we would have tried to hide it like YOU suggested but we are not and were not and wont in the future.
And another thing since I am sure that you have associates and friends in the reptile community, you guys must be selling the same animals I mean they are all rainbow boas right??? So they must be the same animal all the time and the fact that you guys sell them for individual prices must mean that you guys are bilking the public.........OH MY that must make you a bad guy too!!

 

[Seamus Haley]

lets reiterate the inquiry here. Neil got caught with trying to bilk the public out of an extra $120.00 by selling the same snakes under different names for different prices

Actually... the initial inquirey was asking if anyone had any experiences with Jewell, along with a strong insinuation that she was advertising animals that she didn't have because her ad was identical to Neil's. Neil's integrity was only questioned by association, not directly.

Further, the snakes were sold under the same name, which is why the ads were caught as being identical and as to the pricing... If he can get the extra $120, then good for him. Anyone stupid enough to buy an animal without either knowing or checking the average market value deserves to lose the $120 which, if the animals in question are of the quality one would expect considering the individuals selling them, would still be a fair price and would leave the buyer satisfied that they got a decent deal... anyone buying them through Jewell rather than Neil would simply be even more amazed at the price. What you're essentially stating is that they have no right to decide on the price they're each advertising for this animal, essentially removing their right to conduct honest buisness in the manner they see fit.

Provided there's good communication between the two of them about the status of the animals in question, vis they don't both sell them and end up a few animals short, which seems unlikely considering the amount of time they probably see one another for in a given day, there's no problem with this whatsoever and the point about Neil having to buy them from Jewell in order to re-sell them and adding a fairly small profit margin for his trouble if they happen to sell better because of his reputation is perfectly valid as well. How many times does it need to be said that people are willing to pay extra for an animal from someone they know and trust versus someone who is not quite as well known?

Your claiming that Sean had ulterior motives for posting but to anyone reading this post he's doing a great justice by notifying readers of the savings of $120.00.

It seems that he might given the history of knowing the individuals who's credibility he questioned in a manner that gave the impression that he was unaware of the existance of had it not been for this kingsnake ad. Further, he did not simply come out and say "Save $120 by sending some cash to Jewell rather than Neil." which would have been questionable material for the BOI anyway. In fact, nowhere did he mention anything about knowing both parties and alerting anyone interested of the situation, rather he implied that there was something questionable about the ads placed.

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

Seamus Can I say nuff said

Again thank you for reiterating what I was trying to say.
You say it so much more eloquently than I do.
Jewell

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Somethign is not right here. Sean knew that Neil and Jewell's working relationship. It appears to me that he was pissed that he could not get a better price by pitting them against each other and then tried to make it appear that something is wrong. Hell I could have advertised the same snakes and priced than at $500 if I had wanted to and there would be nothing wrong with it. Anyone can price an animal for any price they want to. It is the buyers choice whether or not to purchase. I know Both Neil and Jewell very well and consider them both friends as well as colleagues in the Business. There is no wrong behaviour going on with them. I just have a feeling that Sean may have had his feelings hurt or something else but it does his post does not smell like flowers to me. Sean, If you don't like a price of an animal then don't buy it, if an ad does not state "price is negotiable" then don't try to haggle them down, or get a better deal. Nothing pisses me off more then people that try to get my prices lower than what I have them advertised at, or even though ALL of my ads clearly state SORRY NO TRADES I still get about 10 e-mails a day of people wanting to trade me for an animal. People really should read the ads completely and comprehend what it states.

 

[The BoidSmith]

In my opinion Jewell and Neil can ask what they seem is fair for an animal they post for sale. But who will pay the retail price if he knew how much they are selling for wholesale within the same store? In MHO, and for the future, it would just "looks better" if they agree on a set price before posting an animal for sale. Just a thought.

Seamus,

Everything you posted made a lot of sense, the only statement I'm struggling with is with the following.

Anyone stupid enough to buy an animal without either knowing or checking the average market value deserves to lose the $120 which, if the animals in question are of the quality one would expect considering the individuals selling them, would still be a fair price and would leave the buyer satisfied that they got a decent deal...

In my opinion is the same reasoning behind the animals posted for sale with the "make me an offer" strategy. Otherwise good points.

 

[Sean Belanger]

Orginal quote by Neil: Sean.... Like you've got a choice???....

Yes I do Neil. And my choice is to NOT do business with you. Or Jewell. You make it sound like you have done ALOT for me when all you have done is simply replied to my emails. Nothing else. The number of your supplier was given to me by Jewell. Not YOU Neil. Although I did meet you a couple of years ago and have never done business with you, I have NEVER met Jewell and I have only corresponded with her through emails. Which is why I started this post. When I saw the same snakes for different prices, from two different sellers, I felt I had to make an inquiry. I am not trying to "play" with you and Jewell or trying to work a better price from each of you. But when I saw both of your ads it made me skeptical. It made me question if I should make this purchase. Why? Because I am dealing with two different sellers I have never done business with. And because I am a bit weary of who I'm buying from. Neil, I found out from Andy Barr that the other Goini you have had advertised on Kingsnake.com for months now had an Albino Florida King bred into that line. And I brought it to your attention. Yet you still continue to list it simply as a Goini with no mention of Florida King being bred into it. That makes me wonder if I should buy anything from you.

As for knowing about Neil and Jewell's working relationship, this is what Jewell emailed me in early November 2002.

Sean
> > My life is extremely complicated and multifaceted.
> > I have a pet store in Kingsland Ga, That someone
> > else is buying(making payments to me on). I have
> my
> > own wholesale/retail/expo/educational exotic
> animal
> > business. Which Neil recently (July?) hired to
> > manage his petstore and show him how to increase
> > business and basically make him money.
> > I do breed dumeril boas and columbian boas. I also
> > breed geckos(albeit not on purpose,LOL), most of
> the
> > rest of the animals I have for sale are bought
> from
> > other breeders.
> > Most of my income comes from reptile shows that I
> do
> > at least 3-4 a month.
> > Thanks
> > Jewell

So to my knowledge, Jewell has her own business. But manages Neil store. I have known this for only a little over one month now. I did not assume they would be selling the same animals. Why? Because Jewell emailed me this.

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:40:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "j howard" <[email protected]> | This is Spam | Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: Message about: 1.2 CBB ADULT PROVEN BREEDING GROUP GOINI KINGS PICTURES!
To: "Sean B" <[email protected]>




Sean

She is available and she is the same price.

They belong to Jim Mendenhall of Spring Hill FLA, he is ill and cannot maintain his collection any longer so he asked me to try and sell them for him.

He showed me pictures of offspring from this and they are very nice animals and they throw pretty babies also.

He fed them once a week f/t rats and mice. She is somewhere between 2- 4 years old.

I am not in Tampa but am 40 mile north of tampa, I do not work with Neil he pays me to do his office work and help him care for his animals there is no other association other than that.

Thanks and if you want her let me know and paypal me at [email protected] and I will ship her to you monday.

Thanks

Jewell

Jewell, if you and Neil are selling the same animals, you should have told me that in your email.

 

[smart_ask]

Sean the only reason for you to post the inquiry about Jewell or Neil would be to determine if they were crooks (bad Guys/Gals). If this was your original intentions you should have posted all the information you had. From the emails you just posted you were aware the Jewell worked for Neil but you never mentioned that in your original post. Sean I also noticed the same adds you did but I knew just the same information about Jewell and Neil as you did but I had the maturity and taste to think thru the situation and come realize that they are running a business and can price their animals as they wish. If you did a search for either name on fauna I believe you could assume them both to be good guys/gals by their activity level and lack of negative posts toward either. You appear to be attempting to stir up something. If your not the best thing at this point would be to thank everyone for their assistance in explaining this and apologize for any inconvience this may have caused.

I'm sure Sean you have gotten your feathers ruffled by this thread as Im sure Neil and Jewell have but its looks as if they have made no attempt to deceive you. As a matter of fact I think they have already volunteered more information than they would be required to.

Not doing business with Neil or Jewell will be your loss in the long run.

my penny's worth

Respectfully,

 

[Rainbowboaman]

Sean posted an inquiry about the same animals at two different places & two different prices & showed proof of this & he is being made out to be the bad guy.Your trying to make something out of why he posted, it doesn't really matter why he inquired & had proof to back it up. Jewell has lowered herself to calling people names & seeing how this is your living your not shining through this with any professionalism. All I said in my first post was thanking Sean for the heads up & that would have been the end of it on my part. Jewell then had to insinuate that I have sold someone's else's animal in the past which I wouldn't do. I knew if wouldn't be long before some of the click had to post here to try to make it look like Sean did something wrong.You kids keep bringing this post back up to the top of list so your potential customers can read this & go elsewhere.

 

[smart_ask]

Chris,
If Sean did really question the adds don't you think he would have asked Neil or Jewell for an explaination. He was already in contact with them. I always ask the horse first whenever possible. Just seems like Sean would ask for clairification from Neil or Jewell personally before bringing the rest of the world in on it. Posting on BOI carries a lot of power .... use it properly. The asking of a question can influence peoples perceptions and a question can be used as an attack on someone's ethics.

I don't feel this thread discredits Neil or Jewell. Through it all they have both been open with the information and have laid it all out on the table. I'm sure they would take this post as an attack (looks like one) since neither one was given the opportunity the answer the question before it was brought into an open forum.

 

[Sean Belanger]

Stephen. I don't know if you read this or not on page 1 but I will post it again for you.

Jewell. Being that I have never done business with you before and after doing a search here on the BOI, I just wanted to know what other people's experiences have been with you. And I felt it was reasonable that I explain why I was inquiring. Two ads for the same snakes. Two different prices. Two sellers. Think about this.

There was no attack on anyone. I made an inquiry. I gave my reasons why I made the inquiry. And I only stated facts.

 

[smart_ask]

Sean,
Did you notice that Jewell had been on fauna since April with a respectful activity level and still had a good reputation. That would lead me to believe that she's a good gal. So as I approached the board for information I would have done so with a little more respect for their reputations. I quess the big point would been to talk to Neil and Jewell asked them why the same animals but differing prices. Your inquiry could have been a little less leading. It read to me as an insinuation of corruption. Had you honestly been only interested in what peoples experience with Jewell you should have stopped after the first sentence of your original post.

Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with Jewell Howard of Golden Serpents.

With that I believe you would have gotten the information you say you where requesting and not came across as an attack. I will agree that two people not knowingly connected selling the same animal would draw flags but you knew they where connected in a business relationship.

 

[Casey Hulse]

THE BOI is the "board of inquiry"

No reason for anyone to get their panties in a bunch over this. A reasonable explaination was given by all involved, no big deal.
That is just my opinion though.