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Inquiry on "Tom Crutchfield"

Norm,

I will bet anything you could offer Tom a ton of money and he would never get on top of a dozer to kill protected gopher tortoises even though it can be arranged to be done legally.
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I stated my opinion above, and I believe it was lenient towards Tom. However, just IMMHO, that is a flawed analogy that you made. I can't state with any knowledge that you could pay Tom money now and he would then bulldoze gopher tortoises to oblivion. However, he was convicted of taking money to facilitate the taking of protected animals from the wild, likely to their detriment, without regard to their protected status.
 
The Real Crime...............

........is the law that Tom broke. He smuggled Fiji Island Iguanas into the country. Endangered in and around Fiji, perhaps. But EVERY zoo in this country that has these animals in their collections throw away each and every egg that is produced, fertile or not. In Europe you can go to Hamm and buy Fiji Island Iguanas legally. Yes, Tom broke the law. However, let's step back and look at this for a minute. Ah yes, I have Bearded Dragons, and Blue Tongue Skinks. I see other Egurnia species in peoples collections. Shinglebacks anyone? All of these animals were not available to us until someone sneeked them into the states. That also goes for Jungle Carpet Pythons, Anthill Pythons, Womas, Black Head Pythons and Lace Monitors. How many people have Ridgetail Monitors? All illegal to remove from Australia, but here they are. The founding stock for Pueblan Milksnakes were smuggled in from Mexico. Let's face it, the face of herpetoculture would not be what it is today if not for people like Tom, plain and simple, like it or not. I don't understand how people who are reaping the rewards from breeding these animals can actually slap the face of one of the people that made this possible. Did he break the law, sure he did. Was it justified to break the law? Everyone has an opinion on that. If Tom must be found guilty by us for doing what he did, despite the law, then it's time for all of us to be found guilty too. Let's give up all our bearded dragons, shall we. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? Sungazers anyone?

Ken Foose
 
Ken Foose said:
........is the law that Tom broke. He smuggled Fiji Island Iguanas into the country. Endangered in and around Fiji, perhaps. But EVERY zoo in this country that has these animals in their collections throw away each and every egg that is produced, fertile or not. In Europe you can go to Hamm and buy Fiji Island Iguanas legally. Yes, Tom broke the law. However, let's step back and look at this for a minute. Ah yes, I have Bearded Dragons, and Blue Tongue Skinks. I see other Egurnia species in peoples collections. Shinglebacks anyone? All of these animals were not available to us until someone sneeked them into the states. That also goes for Jungle Carpet Pythons, Anthill Pythons, Womas, Black Head Pythons and Lace Monitors. How many people have Ridgetail Monitors? All illegal to remove from Australia, but here they are. The founding stock for Pueblan Milksnakes were smuggled in from Mexico. Let's face it, the face of herpetoculture would not be what it is today if not for people like Tom, plain and simple, like it or not. I don't understand how people who are reaping the rewards from breeding these animals can actually slap the face of one of the people that made this possible. Did he break the law, sure he did. Was it justified to break the law? Everyone has an opinion on that. If Tom must be found guilty by us for doing what he did, despite the law, then it's time for all of us to be found guilty too. Let's give up all our bearded dragons, shall we. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? Sungazers anyone?

Ken Foose
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Sheer idiocy .....man....it is the smugglers that make it hard for honest working people....
Basically what your post is saying is that it is OK what ol Tommy did........so hey lets all go to Mexico and bring a bunch of Brachypelma smithi just cause others have done it.
 
I don't wish to get into a posting war here, but which idiocy are you referring to? The one where the zoos throw out the eggs of an "endangered species", or the smuggling of the same animals? Both appear to be a crime to me. One is just written in a book, the other is done behind closed doors pretty much in secret. I am certainly not advocating that people smuggle wildlife. I know I never will. What I was doing was attempting to point out that without these reptile smugglers the face of this hobby would be vastly different then it is today. I don't think anyone can deny that John. You must not keep any Australian herps. Otherwise, you too would be guilty of smuggling after the fact, or at least guilty of possessing "stolen" property. I'm not judging anyone, not my place. I just want to make sure we are all on the same page here. Good or bad, some of the most profitable herps in this hobby are from smuggled animals. Every Petco in this country sells Bearded Dragons. Each and every one of them is descended from illegally exported animals.
Ken
 
Oh, and if you do happen to make a trip to Mexico for some Brachypelma smithi, keep me in mind. :thumbsup:
Just kidding
Ken
 
While I agree that full disclosure about Tom's past is important, the O.P. is asking for anyones opinions from business dealings with him.
I have purchased 2 W.C. ETBs from him in the past couple years and he was a pleasure to deal with. The animals were top-notch and everything he said they would be. Not only that but he spent quite a bit of time on the phone discussing various tips and such about their care. He was professional and helpful.
I would purchase from him again in a heartbeat. Lets all remember when his crimes were committed it was a very different time in the herp world. Thats not an excuse, just something to think about.
 
Buying from Tom

would be less of a risk then allot of other people who frequent this board or advertise on Kingsnake. Tom is not selling his past but what is available in very good condition. What you see is what you get. There are no hidden agendas when you consummate a sale with Tom. I have not heard of anyone who has been screwed out of money since his lack of sense days. Those days are gone. I would not hesitate to purchase , and neither should the viewing public if their is something that you are looking for. The quality will be as advertised, with helpful information and you will not be dissapointed with your purchase.
 
The founding stock for Pueblan Milksnakes were smuggled in from Mexico.
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Not entirely true, most of the founding stock were legally collected and brought in with a scientific permit. As far as zoos destroying eggs, that is true but that is the fault of the USF&W, not the zoos (Fish and Wildlife orders them to do that).
 
Kelli, I agree with you. It's not the zoo that is at fault, but a backward USFWS policy. Also, I do know personally of many Pueblans that were brought in without permits, back in the late 70s, but that's neither here or there. I was just using them as an example. And again, that still does not account for the wide range of Australian herps we all now have the pleasure of owning. We can't even blame the illegality on USFWS. I'm not slamming USFWS either. I'm just saying that a lot of herps we work with today ended up in our hands by somewhat questionable means. I know you and Steve know what I mean.
Oh, by the way, are you guys going to make it to Nashville? Should be a great IHS this year. And keep in mind that next year we'll be in Monteray. Just a hop across the border for you guys :)
Cheers,
Ken
 
Kelli,
Not entirely true.

"Not entirely true, most of the founding stock were legally collected and brought in with a scientific permit. As far as zoos destroying eggs, that is true but that is the fault of the USF&W, not the zoos (Fish and Wildlife orders them to do that)."

That may be what USF&W told Dallas/Ft. Worth Zoo when Steve was there, but I can only think of ONE case where the USF&W told an AZA Zoo to do that, and that was regarding the San Francisco Garter snake. I would like to see evidence where USF&W ordered zoo's to destroy eggs/babies other than the garter snakes. SSP's and PMP's have suggested to zoo's to destroys eggs', such as Komodo's to ensure pure bloodlines of reptiles, but I have never seen an order from USF&W in my 18 years at a zoo. (Other than the San Fran garter snake) to destroy reptile eggs. Please let me know of other cases/scenario's where this occured regarding reptile offspring, I would like to know.
Thanks!

Randal
 
That may be what USF&W told Dallas/Ft. Worth Zoo when Steve was there, but I can only think of ONE case where the USF&W told an AZA Zoo to do that, and that was regarding the San Francisco Garter snake. I would like to see evidence where USF&W ordered zoo's to destroy eggs/babies other than the garter snakes. SSP's and PMP's have suggested to zoo's to destroys eggs', such as Komodo's to ensure pure bloodlines of reptiles, but I have never seen an order from USF&W in my 18 years at a zoo. (Other than the San Fran garter snake) to destroy reptile eggs. Please let me know of other cases/scenario's where this occured regarding reptile offspring, I would like to know.
Click to expand...

According to what we have heard, San Diego Zoo is the only zoo allowed to breed Fiji Island Iguanas. All the other zoos have been ordered to destroy any eggs by San Diegi Zoo per USF&W. Zoos routinely destroy endangered species eggs when there is no more capacity to hold them, one example of this would be Dwarf Crocs but I don't know that is ordered by USF&W. Same with Lousianna Pine Snakes. USF&W also has restrictions on Sanzinia regarding animals that were confiscated (I'm sure you are aware of that). A little different than destroying babies or eggs, but it does restrict the amount of babies that can be produced.

It's really stupid because if zoos were allowed to sell some of these animals it would not only ease the strain of endangered populations but would also be a great source of funding for herpetariums. You know I don't think zoos are perfect(far far from it) but in some cases the restrictions are ridiculous and not the fault of the people running the zoos.
 
Wow....

That blows my mind. I can not believe that they would destroy the eggs from the Fiji's. You could easily tell if they where not of pure bloodstock. I would also assume that the zoo's would do an extreme background check on these or any endangered animals when they acquire them. This includes the animals them selves as well as the person they got them from and the person that might have breed/collected them. Could you imagine the public outcry if zoo's where forced to put down newborn Barbury lions, snow leopards, or Amir leopards. And yes, this would be a great way to raise funds to help other endangered herpes. How much $ could have been raised to help out the Blue Iguana's????? Govt rules and bureaucracy blows my mind, it is like pissing into the wind. It just goes to show how F'ed up the USFW agency is. A perfect example is the proposed ban that says that says burms, retics, scrubs, anaconda's and the such could invade 1/3 of our country. Everyone involved with these species and has just half a brain knows this is BS. This makes me mad as hellllll. Talk about "stupid is as stupid does".

Joe
 
Just out of curiosity, by what legal and ethical justification are zoos ordered to destroy offspring of endangered species? How can an animal be classified as "endangered" by one government agency yet have examples ordered destroyed by another agency? Don't they know what the term "endangered" means?

I really can't think of any sane reason at all why those eggs or babies shouldn't be treated to all efforts necessary to insure their survival. Even if one is just given to an enthusiast with adequate credentials to work with it, isn't that one more that is alive in the world of some animal, by stated government documentation, that is on the brink of extinction?

Seriously, government policy doesn't get much more insane than that, in my opinion.
 
Seriously, government policy doesn't get much more insane than that, in my opinion.
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I agree with you. I think it has something to do with USF&W not wanting any of the endangereds to get out into the private sector. Steve (my husband) knows a USF&W agent pretty well and we asked him a while back if we could bring the Fiji Igunas and also the San Francisco garters in from Europe, legally captive bred ones, and the guy said Fish and Wildlife would not allow that. I would freaking kill to have some Fiji Iguanas, they are just about #1 on my list of herps I want to work with, but I would never risk having animals illegally and not having proper paperwork and all. Maybe someday these silly restrictions will be lifted but my pessimistic side says I doubt it.
 
KelliH said:
I agree with you. I think it has something to do with USF&W not wanting any of the endangereds to get out into the private sector. Steve (my husband) knows a USF&W agent pretty well and we asked him a while back if we could bring the Fiji Igunas and also the San Francisco garters in from Europe, legally captive bred ones, and the guy said Fish and Wildlife would not allow that. I would freaking kill to have some Fiji Iguanas, they are just about #1 on my list of herps I want to work with, but I would never risk having animals illegally and not having proper paperwork and all. Maybe someday these silly restrictions will be lifted but my pessimistic side says I doubt it.
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So their policy is such that they would prefer the animals go extinct rather than have them in the private sector? Again, COMPLETELY insane. And I would think that a good defending attorney representing someone indicted on trafficking in endangered animals could use that policy to beat the crap out of the prosecution. What is the PURPOSE of that law? And who is better supporting that purpose in a case like that?
 
lanceheads said:
JimO, what partners are you referring to?

Randal Berry
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Randal,

Did you read the page in the link that I listed? Two of his partners had already been sentenced before he was. Those would be the two.



One can disagree with a law but that doesn't give them the right to flout it and break it for profit. That's my biggest problem with greedy people like Tommy Edward Crutchfield and other smugglers of his ilk. In the end they make it harder for honest people to obtain animals legally. And if they are going to break the law based on some "moral principle" then they should have the stones to take the heat for that "moral principle" in which they believe so deeply. Instead, when the law came knocking at the door Tommy ran away with the intention of letting others take the fall. That is the act of a coward, not of someone highly principled.

He may have a string of good transactions (along with a few bad ones well documented here on the BOI) but at the end of the day he is not someone with whom I would choose to do business. He has forfeited that privilege. I hold my business associates to a higher standard than he can possibly achieve.
 
JimO,
no sir, I did not read the link. I'll go back and read it.

I was his manager at that time, I had to appear before the prosecutor and answer many questions two weeks before his trial.

Tom admitted his guilt. I believe the quote was, "I'm guilty, because I'm guilty". I can assure you, Tom did not run with the intention for others to take the fall. Not even close. I assure you, Tom is no coward, he paid his debt, and it's time to move on. People do make mistakes and learn from them. I would not ever hesitate doing business with him. Many animals available today would not be here for us to enjoy if it wasn't for Tom, no question about it.

Randal
 
lanceheads said:
JimO,
no sir, I did not read the link. I'll go back and read it.

I was his manager at that time, I had to appear before the prosecutor and answer many questions two weeks before his trial.

Tom admitted his guilt. I believe the quote was, "I'm guilty, because I'm guilty". I can assure you, Tom did not run with the intention for others to take the fall. Not even close. I assure you, Tom is no coward, he paid his debt, and it's time to move on. People do make mistakes and learn from them. I would not ever hesitate doing business with him. Many animals available today would not be here for us to enjoy if it wasn't for Tom, no question about it.

Randal
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Totally different charactor assessment than the ol Tommy O know...when he was called out on some less than perfect pastel boas that are now all long dead except for one...lessee here,,. he called my home making some threats doing some name calling and all sort of stupid punk crap, do a search on him here...yeah some animals might be responsible getting here because of him...but hey man..legally :shrug01: ....I am sure we will meet someday face to face and discuss this like the gentlemen we are :rolleyes:
 
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