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Inquiry, Rick Geckoland-USA

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I'm sorry, this is a kingsnake forum prompted thread.

start with this thread http://forum.kingsnake.com/lgecko/messages/141486.html and then move on to this thread (which is 8 threads newer) http://forum.kingsnake.com/lgecko/messages/141524.html


He's trying to prove that sand impaction is largely overblown. The first thread was mostly proof against his points, and now he's started a second thread rehashing his argument. In my opinion he is doing it to try and ignore that people can prove him wrong. When I called him on it he said my math was off and tried to attack me.

Apparently to him, its not enough to catch the potential for a fatality to prove something bad. The animal actually has to die.


I'm furious at the moment, and I wanted to call attention to this to see if I am out of line. If I'm not out of line, then I want to call attention to someone who is worth avoiding for bad practices.
 
Rick at Geckoland USA

I almost never reply to posts on here. Actually I may never have, but I do not feel this is the place for this post. In my opinion this post should have been left where it was. This is a post of someone's opinion for or against and regardless of what my beliefs are for or against it does not make Rick a bad guy to agree or not agree. I hope this thread is deleted because this is not what I thought the BOI was set up for.
thank you for your time,
Bruce Davis
 
I had mixed feelings posting here, and if Rich wishes to delete it I understand. But I wanted to take this discussion somewhere a bit more mature than kingsnake. Perhaps I should have left out the individual, but he is in the business and he does get around. I felt it as important to discuss his business ethics as it was to discuss the husbandry issue.
 
Rick at Geckoland USA

I read over the forum post and still pretty much all I see are people's opinion. That is it. Rich spent all this time breaking down this site and just added a gecko husbandry forum that I feel would better fit this type of thread. I am not trying to negate your opinion because that is your right. I am just saying that is also Rick's right as well and should not make him a bad guy. Also, as far as I can remember I have never spoken to or e-mailed Rick before so I honestly do not know the man. I just do not think that the fact someone uses sand or newspaper or paper towels for that matter makes them a bad person just because someone else disagrees.
thanks
Bruce Davis
 
I agree 100% with what Bruce says. The BOI is no place for these type of personal grudge postings. So what if Rick thinks it's okay to use sand as a substrate for leopard geckos! SO DO I! I have said as much on the kingsnake Gecko forum in the past and I may again. If you and I have a disagreement about what substrates we have successfully used on our leopard geckos and you disagree with my choice then are you then going to post an inquiry on me also?

Since you brought up Rick in a negative fashion though, I feel that I must respond: Rick has awesome leopard geckos and is an honest and trustworthy breeder. He sent me one of his torch orange leopard geckos last year without me paying him a dime. He told me that when I produce something he's interested in let him know. The animal I got from him is stunning looking and very healthy. I would not hesitate to deal with Geckoland USA in the future.

Kelli Hammack
 
It's that he's promoting the use of sand based on the fact that he can't find anyone who has had an animal die on it. And when most of the replies have been evidence against his claim of its safety, he restarts the thread fresh. When called on it he says "Your math is wrong death- 1 nodeath- 6" as if that is the proof he needs.

He was given proof that claims in favor of sand by the manufacturer are wrong, and evidence against his own claims. And he ignores it.

I do think its an issue when a breeder is blind to anything that would contradict the way he keeps his animals. Would you want to buy an animal with a respiratory infect being the breeder insisted that a desert animal required daily misting of the entire tank? What about an animal that is impacted with sand because the breeder insists he's never seen one eat it? It's the same issue.
 
Kelli, you are a completely different case because you have always described your setups and why you feel a certain way. You have always backed up anything you have ever said.

If you look at the posts, I was pretty quick to reply with a person anecdote as well as evidence: http://www.pythons.com/calcium.html

That he replied to me "1 dead 6 not dead" is not a valid rebuttal.


I don't consider him an honest individual and I personally would never do business with him.
 
Steven-

Rick is promoting the use of sand because he has had good luck using it as a substrate. So have I. I've kept hundreds of adult leopard geckos on washed playsand and never had a single one become impacted and die.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about substrate for crying out loud! It's not as if reptile husbandry is an exact science you know.

Here is what I posted on this same subject last year on the leo forum:

"Funny how most of the people who regularly post in this forum these days are so anti sand. Perhaps you think that those of us that have been working with these animals for many years (I remember when high yellows were still high dollar and patternless? what the heck is that?) are ignorant when it comes to their husbandry and natural history. If sand were such an evil killer of leopard geckos, why would the majority of the big breeders use it?

What substate a keeper uses is his or her personal choice. There is no formula for keeping any herp, you really have to absorb all of the things you learn from various caresheets, other hobbiests, websites, and forums such as these, and then experiment and figure out what works best for you and your animals. I used washed playsand for years as a substrate for my adult leopard gecko colonies with zero impaction problems. I prefer to use paper towel these days but only because it makes cleaning cages go by a lot faster! I heard that slate is a great substrate choice but with the rack systems i use it just isn't an option, LOL.

Oh well, just my 2 cents on the sand issue (again) ;-) "

Here is the link to that post: http://forum.kingsnake.com/lgecko/messages/136112.html

Now I am done with this thread, it will probably be deleted soon anyway. I only posted my original reply because I think it's not cool to post something negative on the BOI about someone because they disagree with you on a husbandry issue.
 
Steven-

Sorry but I think of Rick as a friend and I am a very loyal person that tends to stand up for my friends. Please don't take it personally!:D
 
Kelli, no hard feelings at all! As I said, you always defend your standpoints and I respect that.


I do have to debate your argument though, and this isn't the right place for it but hopefully you'll read it before the thread is deleted ;)

The argument about other breeders using it is really not valid. I believe one of the biggest points that you've turned around 180* from in this respect is inbreeding leos (as you were quoted in response to my question on kingsnake's chat :D).
 
And in the thread you link to, again it is started by Rick "Sand is by FAR the best substrate" http://forum.kingsnake.com/lgecko/messages/136006.html

"All my leos have probably eaten their share of sand, that's what they do. It's their natural instinct to lick sand. If it was so dangerous to them, they would have been extinct millions of years ago. "


From all that I have read, leos do not live on sand in the wild for one. They live on compacted dirt and rocks.

For another thing, how many leos live 20-30 years in the wild? This is my biggest problem with the claims that what works in the wild works best in captivity. Leos are designed to be survivors, as a group. They reproduce rapidly and their sex is determined by temperature, both adapatations for continuation of the species in the climate.
 
Steven,

you know I like you man, but I think you need to let this thread die here and restart your argument in the Leopard Gecko section of this site in the Husbandry forum if you wish to continue.

I don't know Rick at all, but I DO know Kelli, and if she's saying he's a good guy, I'll believer her. I also have kept leopard adults AND juvies on sand for years with NEVER an impaction problem. I have raised hundreds.

The BOI is not for the discussion and debate of opinions on the proper husbandry of animals(unless directly in relation to the business practice of an individual or company such as horrid hosuing conditions, which sand is not).

I apologize to the Webslave for replying, but I felt I needed to add something in this completely out of place thread.
 
I am moving this thread from the BOI into the Leopard Gecko forum where it belongs.
 
Not a problem at all. I was out of line and this is definately more appropriate for the discussion.


And yes, Kelli's vote does make me have to relook my feelings on Rick, but from what I have heard before about him I still think my inquiry is valid. Kelli is actually the first big breeder that I've heard of to be happy with Rick's "Torch Orange" leos, for example.




I actually don't think playsand is horrible when used by a knowledgeable and responsible hobbiest. I think calcisand is falsely marketed and has a lot of drawbacks. I also do not support the claim that it is natural and acceptable for leos to regularly ingest their substrate.
 
I'm boosting this in hopes that it will add perspective to the current arguments that we are having. This thread and the links contained within covers several generations of leopard gecko keepers.

I hope it will provide everyone with a little perspective and humility. It certainly is a reminder of how far I have come!
 
I can't believe were talking about sand!
lets at least let two weeks pass before posting on the dam sand!!!!
 
riverjop said:
I can't believe were talking about sand!
lets at least let two weeks pass before posting on the dam sand!!!!
Click to expand...

I'm not boosting this to discuss sand. I'm boosting this to discuss arguments.

The sand debates have existed on KS since KS started. What's different now? The fact that the experienced keepers who participated in the discussions no longer care to contribute to the new generations of keepers. Nothing has been resolved.

What is better?
The experienced keepers have gone on learning from their experiences and those of other experiences keepers.

What is worse?
The new generations of keepers are rehashing the same old topics, but without any guidance. It's those people who can quote the largest passages and write the longest explinations, regardless of experience or valid arguments, that are now considered experts on KS.
 
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