Intense Herpetoculture - Any feedback?

[Scott Ashton]

I almost asked yesterday what method people used to pay Justyn for this very reason...

If you paid with a USPS money order then you're golden! If Justyn tired to defraud you after paying with a USPSMO, then he is going to be in more trouble than he's ever imagined over this.

Justyn,
Seriously man...you would have to be an IDIOT to commit federal mail fraud! You REALLY need to get this resolved. At the very least start being open and honest, and communicating with the people to whom you owe money. You do NOT want the US Postal Inspection Service coming after you.

If anyone else paid with a USPS Money Order - contact the US Postal Inspectors. These guys make their nut on prosecuting mail fraud.


http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/

 

[espo]

Justyn,
Seriously man...you would have to be an IDIOT to commit federal mail fraud! You REALLY need to get this resolved. At the very least start being open and honest, and communicating with the people to whom you owe money.


I think its a little late for him to start doing that.

 

[Stardust]

I almost asked yesterday what method people used to pay Justyn for this very reason...

If you paid with a USPS money order then you're golden! If Justyn tired to defraud you after paying with a USPSMO, then he is going to be in more trouble than he's ever imagined over this.

Justyn,
Seriously man...you would have to be an IDIOT to commit federal mail fraud! You REALLY need to get this resolved. At the very least start being open and honest, and communicating with the people to whom you owe money. You do NOT want the US Postal Inspection Service coming after you.

I totally agree, that and with the paper trail and the amount owed you are looking at some serious trouble. You won't have to worry about being busy for awhile if all of this comes into play.
Do the right thing and correct this before it gets that far. People may take note of your age and just chalk it up to a lesson learned, if you persist in your path I do not see a very happy future for you.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

With all due respect

Dr Owen's, I have never heard of a single person going to jail over cashing in money orders. Have you? It is certainly not an frequent occurance in the herp trade.

I am not trying to mitigate anything that Justyn may have done, but this is a civil matter, and I think to your surprise, that even if you filed a complaint with the postal authorities, their is not much that can be accomplished other than doing whatever you can to get your money back.

Before you accuse anyone of mail fraud, I would be a bit more careful with those types of accusations. Nothing has been proven to point a finger of guilt at Justyn. Are you asserting that Justyn perpetuated a fraud by deliberetly taking money via the post office through a postal money order with the INTENT to defraud the buyer. Am I reading this correctly?

 

[erk2]

What Justyn is failing to see here is that instead of 4 indivdual people that he owes money to, he has 4 people that are now working together to get this resolved and it happens to be 4 people who are patient and mature and coordinated enough to handle this the right way.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Just a brief clarification

I have never met Justyn, nor have I ever received anything from him. I did place a ONE TIME order which did not work out to well. The monies were refunded to me through Paypal, and I have never spoken to him since. But I sense he has to many pots boiling in his kitchen.

My first gut reaction is one of inexperience more in the business aspect of his operation than his perception of a thief. I do hope that he does the right thing if he owes money, or has not come through with his promises.

 

[erk2]

Dr Owen's, I have never heard of a single person going to jail over cashing in money orders. Have you? It is certainly not an frequent occurance in the herp trade.

I am not trying to mitigate anything that Justyn may have done, but this is a civil matter, and I think to your surprise, that even if you filed a complaint with the postal authorities, their is not much that can be accomplished other than doing whatever you can to get your money back.

Before you accuse anyone of mail fraud, I would be a bit more careful with those types of accusations. Nothing has been proven to point a finger of guilt at Justyn. Are you asserting that Justyn perpetuated a fraud by deliberetly taking money via the post office through a postal money order with the INTENT to defraud the buyer. Am I reading this correctly?

What Justyn has done at this time is accepted payment for goods (animals) then, did not provide the goods, and now is not returning the money or showing any attempts to do so. Whether he accepted the money knowing the animals were not coming or not is beyond the point now, he is obligated to return the money, otherwise it is theft. When theft involves the USPS or the Internet in constitutes mail or wire fraud as shown below.

Quoted from Wikpedia:
"This scheme exists in various forms; order an item, make payment, receive nothing is the simplest form of mail fraud."

"Wire fraud is a legal concept in the United States Code which provides for enhanced penalty of any criminally fraudulent activity if it is determined that the activity involved electronic communications of any sort, at any phase of the event. As in the case of mail fraud, this statute is often used as a basis for a separate federal prosecution of what would otherwise have been only a violation of a state law."

 

[Scott Ashton]

Jerry -

This is from the USPS Postal Inspectors website:

"Legitimate businesses appreciate feedback. Check the offer for the delivery time frame, usually 6 to 8 weeks, and then contact the company.

Please wait 2 weeks after contacting them before contacting us. When a delivery time is not specified, a Federal Trade Commission rule mandates fulfillment within 30 days, unless you applied for first-time credit with the company."

http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/GetWhatYouOrdered.htm


From the Federal Trade Comission Website (excerpted):



What Does the Rule Cover?
It applies to most goods a customer orders from the seller by mail, telephone, fax, or on the Internet.

It does not matter how the merchandise is advertised, how the customer pays, or who initiates the contact.

What is the Mail or Telephone Order Rule?
The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.

How to Comply With the Rule
The following information will help you comply with the Rule.

What You Should Know Before You Make a Shipment Representation
When you offer to sell merchandise, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

any express or implied shipment representation, or

believing you can ship within 30 days of receipt of an order -- if you make no shipment representation or if the shipment representation is not clear and conspicuous.

Whenever you change the shipment date by providing a delay notice, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

the new shipment date, or

any representation that you do not know when you can ship the merchandise.

When you take orders by telephone, you may choose to provide prospective customers with updated shipment information.

This may differ from what you said or implied about the shipment time in your advertising. The updated shipment information you provide on the telephone supersedes any shipment representation you made in the advertising.

You also must have a reasonable basis for the updated shipment representation.

"Reasonable basis" means that the merchant has, at the time of making the representation, such information as would under the circumstances satisfy a reasonable and prudent businessperson, acting in good faith, that the representation is true.

The evidence you need to demonstrate the reasonableness of your shipment representations varies with circumstances. The following, however, is important:

Anticipated demand. Is the demand for each advertised item reasonably anticipated?

Supply. For each advertised item, is there a sufficient inventory on hand or adequate sources of supply to meet the anticipated demand for the product?

Fulfillment system. For all promotions in the relevant sales seasons, can the fulfillment system handle the cumulative anticipated demand for all products?

Recordkeeping. Are adequate records kept of the key events (see section headed "Why You Should Keep Records" for a list of key events) in each individual transaction to ensure that items can be shipped within the applicable time, as established by the Rule?

Remember: Whether you make a shipment representation or rely on the 30-day rule, your advertising should be unambiguous about when you will ship.

More here: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.shtm

 

[jsrocket]

Oh, pulleeze. Justyn took money for an order he did not deliver. You gotta be a freakin rocket scientist to figure that one out?

 

[morocco]

What Justyn is failing to see here is that instead of 4 indivdual people that he owes money to, he has 4 people that are now working together to get this resolved and it happens to be 4 people who are patient and mature and coordinated enough to handle this the right way.

No doubt about that. I think this guy is waiting to see if action really will be taken, as it's all been a matter of trying to reason with him and, no offense intended, but bluffing to see if he'll get his together. Justyn, I personally think that some of these people aren't bluffing anymore, so if you're still giggling about it I would think it's time to stop, as the joke is over. Put this dude on BLAZE and when he sees his 1st injunction summoning him to court for charges of fraud or imbezzlement, he'll pay up real quick or go to jail. Maybe he is so used to digging holes in the ground that digging his own is just 2nd nature.

 

[erk2]

Well....just for fun, let's take a trip 30 days back in time and see what was happening then.....

Email from Justyn on April 24, 2007

Eric, I've had a few setbacks with time. I should be able to ship Thurs. I
received a small bite from a Echis coloratus. All is well, just a bit sore
of a left arm now and things have been going slowly. I will work on pics
tonight and see if I can make a booking for the shipment online.
Thanks
Justyn



Justyn Miller
Intense Herpetoculture
Http://www.IntenseHerp.com


Whoops....looks like 30 days have come and gone

 

[espo]

I would assume he has broken a couple laws at this point.

 

[Stardust]

Even if you take out the federal of the equation you still have a criminal as well as civil. It is the amount of the monies and the non delivery of goods or refunds. Not sure what is criminal in the amounts and what level they are as each state is different.
If you will think of it as putting a down on a house, you either get the house or you get your down back.
The criminal will have their attorneys provided (prosecutors) to them at no out of pocket cost, Justyn on the other hand will have plenty of cost hiring an attorney.

As far as I know none of the parties have accepted any form of payment plan which is good as it would make the case more complicated to prove.

 

[Stardust]

Sorry the victims not the criminal.

 

[morocco]

This guy supposedly has several business ventures: his reptile business, landscaping business, his sweatshop in Bolivia, whatever. Have his assests frozen if possible. Take his lawnmowers or pond digging tractors or whatever. It's amazing he is supposed to have several different ways to support himself, but can't come up with the little money to pay people. This dude didn't pre-pay a $30,000 shipment from South America. He probably put $30,000 worth of deposits in the bank and letting interest collect,lol. Imbezzlement and you can go to a federal prison. Same thing with the USPS, federal time. Watch you cry now boy

 

[KNOBTAIL]

thank you for the information,

and I hope everyone gets back their money. I did! But proving intent and attempting to prosecute will become another matter. As we have seen with the Top Shelf fiasco.

I did not doubt for a second that a claim with the proper authorities would not be possible. But I do believe their are other avenues that could be more productive, and apply more pressure in persuading some type of settlement for complete refunds then attempting to use a bureaucratic system with attempting to convince anyone about giving money back for snakes or other herps. See how far you get with that complaint.

 

[Stardust]

and I hope everyone gets back their money. I did! But proving intent and attempting to prosecute will become another matter. As we have seen with the Top Shelf fiasco.

I did not doubt for a second that a claim with the proper authorities would not be possible. But I do believe their are other avenues that could be more productive, and apply more pressure in persuading some type of settlement for complete refunds then attempting to use a bureaucratic system with attempting to convince anyone about giving money back for snakes or other herps. See how far you get with that complaint.

You are correct. There are other methods of persuasion (pressure if you will) but in this case with Justyn having several businesses he can just walk away from this and make money from his other ventures.

From what I read it sounds like a young man trying to hit the jackpot by 25 years old.
I wish the people involved the very best in trying to get their money back. They are not being underhanded or sabotaging anything they are strictly going by the law.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Without going into to much detail

You can force bankruptcy proceedings, you can hire an attorney to sue him in his home state, and of course the attorney generals office in his state if you feel their was an intent to defraud. He (Justyn) I am sure is personally liable, and cannot fall back on a corp. so the avenues are their which can yield better results then filing a claim with the federal govt.

It just depends on how far you want to go with it.

 

[jsrocket]

You are correct. There are other methods of persuasion (pressure if you will) but in this case with Justyn having several businesses he can just walk away from this and make money from his other ventures.

From what I read it sounds like a young man trying to hit the jackpot by 25 years old.

Still smells like a stinking pile of crap, to me.

 

[WebSlave]

You can force bankruptcy proceedings, you can hire an attorney to sue him in his home state, and of course the attorney generals office in his state if you feel their was an intent to defraud. He (Justyn) I am sure is personally liable, and cannot fall back on a corp. so the avenues are their which can yield better results then filing a claim with the federal govt.

It just depends on how far you want to go with it.

Just out of curiosity, wasn't this sort of thing (as best I can remember) tried with Chris Johnson not that long ago? What results were obtained in that situation?