Inter-species breeding

Glenn Bartley

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Someone over at kingsnake.com brought up an issue about interspecies breeding (actually they brought up the issue of intersubspecies breeding but I think they meant interspecies). Whatever - I thought the subject was rather thought provoking. What do you guys think of breeding snakes interspecies? Has anyone accomplished this? Were the offspring basically normal snakes, albeit crosses of the adults? Were the offspring able to reproduce or were they mules? (Although I recently heard it reported that a real mule has reproduced). And what about inter-genera breedings?

As for me I think it is ok, so long as it is not producing absolute freaks like snakes with deformities. I think that such would be a help to geneticists, and possibly advance scientific and medical research. I also think it may produce some really nice snakes dependent on the crosses possible. It certainly would make the hobby a bit more interesting. What do you think?

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley
 
Yes Glenn, both interspecies and intergenera crosseshave been done.
Unfortunatly the promoters of these mutts have even added catchy names to the snakes.

Borneo Bat Eaters are Burmese X Retic
Jungle corns are Cal Kings X Cornsnakes
Carpondros are Carpet pythons X Green Trees
One phase of cornsnake, I believe Creamsicle is Corn X Emoryi
Jurassic Milks is another, but I can't remember the species involved.
Bubblegum rats is a 3 way hybrid if I remember correctly.
And the old faithful Diamond X Carpet cross that originated years ago in part because of the low survivability of pure diamonds in captivity.

Further, albino nelsoni and ruthveni have both been crossed into other species including alterna and sinaloans in order to artificially introduce the albino gene into these snakes.
The off spring are normal snakes, well as normal as a taxonomically unclassifiable snake could be. They are also fertile.

I personally am against hybridization. I can see nothing it can contribute that will benefit the hobby, beyond creating more oddities and eye candy for the marketplace.
It does however pollute the gene pool, and over the next 20 years or so that influence may be felt much more than we may expect.
While there are many who vehemently argue the point, since they themselves are honest people, there are hybrids that reach the market as pure animals.
For instance there is an ad in the k.com classifieds right now for Jurassic Milks, and it mentions nothing about them being hybrids, let alone listing the species the cross was from. While this is not an attempt to pass them off as pure, neophyte keepers may not realize the history of those snakes. I've had numerous people ask me what the taxonomic name of the Borneo Bat Eaters is, trying to learn more about them. Of course there is no name for them nor ever will be, these people just didn't realize that they were hybrids.
This is especially a possibility concerning genetic mutations. There are those that rather than wait for an albino of a given species to be discovered, they may instead introduce the albino gene from another species. Then, through selective breeding to the desired parent species, the influence of the albino contributor can be bred out.
I speculate that this has already happened a time or two, however I could be wrong.
It is done in the dog world. White schnauzers are an example. In the original refining of the breed, white was an undesired color and was bred out. Therefore true white schnauzers are quite rare today, although they do exist. I have one myself. Given the rarity however, the value of these dogs is much higher than normal colors, and that provides the incentive to artificially create them. A Westie is normally used to introduce the white color, then through a few generations and many destroyed pups, the schnauzer appearance is bred back into them and they are registered using papers from another pure blooded breeding, and they have mutts that will sell for 2-3 times the price of pure blooded dogs.

It's easy to see how this same situation can arise in herpetoculture. The potential for monetary gain can be quite high in some species, and that's all the incentive that's needed.

I've heard all manner of justification for working toproduce hybrids, including "scientific reasons", and just to see if it could be done. None hold water with me though.
There might actually be an unseen benefit from hybrids to the genetic or medical community, I won't rule it out. However such animals produced for lab research will not be entering the marketplace of the private sector most likely.

I've ranted enough I suppose. I am against hybrids as an unnecessary pollution of the gene pool that carries the potential of being introduced to a breeding colony unknowingly.
I will not own hybrids, and normally don't do buisness with those who produce them.
While nothing will ever stop the practice, there are purists like myself that will never condone it.
 
You make some good points, but I am a bit confused when you compare different dog breeds to inter-species breeding of snakes. I can see the similarities but there are some marked differences. When someone introduces one breed of dog to another to reintroduce a color or other trait into the breed - this is not inter-species breeding. All domestic dogs are the same species, and sub species - if I understand correctly: Canis lupus familiaris. I always thought that breeds were considered as sub-species but I stand corrected by what I have found on several websites. So when someone introduces a white terrier (or whatever) to a gray Schnauzer with the intent of later producing white Schnauzers by selective breeding, they are not accomplishing an inter-species breeding project, but they are hybridizing. Otherwise, even in your example about Schnauzers, I see what you mean. As for your being a purist and never owning a hybrid, you own one already in that Schnauzer of yours. Whether or not it is pure Schnauzer, its original Schnauzer ancestors were the result of crossing different breeds of dogs to arrive at the breed known as Schanauzer. As far as I am aware, this is true for all domestic dogs as we know them.

I still have no problems with interspecies breeding so long as people who do it are honest when they sell the offspring. I do have a problem with dishonesty and fraud, and that would be what happens when someone trys to sell me an albino X snake when it actually is an albino cross of a normal X snake and a Y snake (or is one of their offspring, or their lineage). I see nothinmg wrong with making a buck off such breedings, as long as it is honestly done. I do see lots of possible scientific and medical benefit coming from actual inter-species or inter-genera breedings especially as it relates to genetics.

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
My intent was not to compare dog breeding to reptile breeding. I normally refrain from mentioning other organisms in a discussion about herpetological hybridizing, but the example of the white schnauzer came to mind only on the basis of people wanting a pure animal as opposed to a cross.
You are correct in that the crossing of dog breeds is not an accurate comparison to that of reptiles. All domestic dogs are of the same subspecies, and crossing them is not even hybridization, since they are all the same animal as far as scientific description goes. If my dog is a hybrid, then it would be because during the initial domestication 10,000 or whatever years ago, that two different types of wolf were used, not because several breeds were contributed in the creation of the schnauzer.
Technically speaking, a breed of dog would be the equivalent of a color phase of cornsnake as compared to cornsnakes as a species. Crossing two breeds of dogs is no more hybridization than crossing two different phases of cornsnakes. When comparing, on a scientific level, an amelanistic cornsnake to a banana cal king, the respective morphs are irrelevant, you compare E.g. guttata to L.g californiae. The same is true with dogs to wolves, since all dogs are taxonomically equal. How though would you compare a Jungle corn to a sinaloan milk?
Dog fanciers look upon their chosen breeds the way we look at snake species for all intents and purposes. While they do not consider the scientific aspect as we do, they do view each registered breed as being seperate from the others regardless of the scientific inaccuracy of that opinion. For this reason they are equally as disturbed about the possibility of buying a cross breed dog thinking they are getting a registered pure breed as we are in buying a snake that is only 75% pure thinking we are getting something else. That was my reasoning in mentioning the white schnauzer.

In addition, dogs being a single taxonomic group allows this crossing to create breeds exactly like the crossing of cornsnake morphs allows the creation of new cultivars without risking the taxonomic integrity of the species.
In herpetoculture as a whole however, we do not have this tidy system. We have many species involved, making it impossible to create only breeds as has been done in dogs. Once two seperate species or even genera of snakes are mixed they have forever lost their identity. They can never be classified as anything other than the market savvy name given them by the breeders. You can't say with accuracy what they are beyond "snake".

The key difference between hybridizing herps and the crossing of any domestic species is usefulness. Dog breeds were derived from a common ancestor purely in captivity to serve purposes according to the breed. Some dogs were bred for protection, some for farm work, some for hunting, and others for pest control (rat terriers etc.) We also have the benefit of established registration systems in place for this and other species to keep track of things.
Likewise, the crossing of cattle and other livestock, as well as plants like apples also serve to aid humanity in their existance.
All of these examples are often given by promoters of hybridizing herps as justification for the practice in reptiles.
In herpetoculture however, there lies no such usefulness. Monetary gain and curiosity are the only two real reasons the practice is done at all. Neither are strong enough reasons in my mind to justify the risk of polluting an unknown segment of the gene pool.

I have been confronted with the reasoning that since I own a dog, eat farm raised meat, and hybrid plants that it is hipocritical of me to be against the hybridizing of reptiles. What we do domestically though has no bearing on reptiles. This is aside from the fact that in the majority of instances such crosses are done within the confines of a species, or at least genera.
The fact is that all other areas are of little to no concern to me. My interest lies in reptiles alone and with that I afford myself the luxury of having two opinions. For this reason my statement about never owning a hybrid was in reference to reptiles alone, as I have no concern with other animals. Let those whose interest lies there worry about how they approach it.

I still have no problems with interspecies breeding so long as people who do it are honest when they sell the offspring.

In an ideal situation, I would immediately agree with you. However this one statement is both reason to approve of it for some and reason to disapprove of it for others.
The fact is there are some who are dishonest, and others who are honest, but simply don't realize that one of their breeders is only half what he thinks it is.
Either way, the result is hybrids entering the genetic pool as pure specimens.
It has happened before, and will continue to happen at times, the question is not whether damage will be done, but how much.

I acknowledge the possibility of some unseen use for hybrids to medicine or genetics, but I can't say there are lots. In either application, I just can't see a situation where a hybrid would be of use in an area where a normal, genetically pure animal would not.
Perhaps medically, certain crossing of venomous species may result in something of benefit, but the possibility, or even the general direction of the experiment would be very difficult to discern beforehand. Instead it would likely be an accidental discovery.
 
"Once two seperate species or even genera of snakes are mixed they have forever lost their identity. They can never be classified as anything other than the market savvy name given them by the breeders. You can't say with accuracy what they are beyond "snake"."

This is excactly where I think you would be very wrong; that is if the offspring of such a mating were to later breed true and reproduce themselves or reproduce faithfully something that was not the equal of either original interspecies parent. If an interspecies mating of snake A and snake B produced snake C, and then matings of snake C to another Snake C produced only Snake C (or even only snakeD); and then if those offspring bred true reproducing themselves faithfully, then it would be quite possible that a new species would have been created. If the genetics of the Snake C or Snake D were different than both Snake A and snake B such would be the case. This would have huge scientific, and medical implications with regard to gennetic applications. Because of such implications the next part of you argument that:

"In herpetoculture however, there lies no such usefulness. Monetary gain and curiosity are the only two real reasons the practice is done at all. Neither are strong enough reasons in my mind to justify the risk of polluting an unknown segment of the gene pool."

No matter what we think of the subject, such breeding attempts are being made by hobbyists. If succesful breedings take place interspecies, that lead to the creation of viable offspring that then develop a new strain that breeds true - and if these differ genetically from their ancestors - this would be big science. Big science will inevitably, sooner or later, attract scientists, and somewhere along the line, there would likelky be a benefit from this. If nothing else, a hobbyist may also be doing this for the knowledge about breeding he/she could gain on a personal level. As far as breeding them for money goes, as I said, if the breeders are honest great. If not, that is fraud and they should have their kneecaps..... (well let me hold that thought). Sure the dishonest ones can corrupt the gene pool; there is always a chance of getting a mutt (there we go with dogs again), that is a chance you take when you buy any animal.

Bear in mind that a lot of scientific and medical research has been bolstered by things that were not at first intended to do just that and that were not scientific ventures in the first place.

I am pretty sure we will not wind up agreeing on much here, I think we are sort of on opposite sides of the coin on this one (even though I do not yet have my animal experimentation mad scientist lab set up just quite yet - LOL), but I do respect your opinions. You make a very good argument.

Best regards,
Glenn
:)
 
If an interspecies mating of snake A and snake B produced snake C, and then matings of snake C to another Snake C produced only Snake C (or even only snakeD); and then if those offspring bred true reproducing themselves faithfully, then it would be quite possible that a new species would have been created. If the genetics of the Snake C or Snake D were different than both Snake A and snake B such would be the case. This would have huge scientific, and medical implications with regard to gennetic applications.

Just for clarification, are you stating that a completely new species could be artifically created in captivity? One that would be recognized by science and receive taxonomic classification? If it isn't recognized, then it can't be considered a species.

If so then every person breeding snakes holds the potential of having a new species described and named after himself.
If this statement is true, then would it also be true for the crossing of genera? Where would these hybrids be classified? Would a new genus be created?

Extrapolate this to other classes of organisms commonly kept in captivity. The effects of such a scenario on taxonomy would be serious, and I simply can't see the actual creation of a new species ever being accepted.
I still maintain that once species or genera are crossed that their precise taxonomic identity is forever lost, they are at that point unclassifiable.

I'm not sure what you mean by genetically different. More precisely what degree of differentiation you feel would be required to result in something of scientific interest.
Much of the serious genetic science is abstract and do a degree intangible to me. Perhaps this contributes to my lack of being able to envision possible implications of hybrids in this area.

It can be safely assumed that we will not come to an agreement in this discussion. I participated in a debate on the topic spanning several months in 1999, and while it proved a very interesting discussion no ground was gained or given and I have rarely broached the subject since. This topic is more or less our hobby's abortion issue. None the less, it is interesting to discuss.
 
Rob took my matches away.

If an interspecies mating of snake A and snake B produced snake C, and then matings of snake C to another Snake C produced only Snake C (or even only snakeD); and then if those offspring bred true reproducing themselves faithfully, then it would be quite possible that a new species would have been created.

This is going to be a bit harsh Glenn but that is just plain outright wrong.

Based on the definition of a species, the interbreeding population HAS to be present in the wild and organisms crossed under lab conditions don't qualify as anything other than artificially produced aberrancies.

There is more to the issue of hybridization than merely genetics or if an animal "Can" be crossed in captivity, there are natural behavioral traits that work to isolate species from one another as separate breeding populations beyond simple genetic possibilities.

There are a number of naturally occurring hybrids but this can be put down as poor initial knowledge of the species natural history and they could, after sufficient study to verify the interbreeding, be categorized as subspecific designations of the same species.

For a more complete understanding of my arguments on the matter, please read the following thread where Rob and I went back and forth over this same issue, since the topics seem to have become essentially identical towards the end, perhaps we could merge them into a single discussion with all the participants involved.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12107
 
Ironically, I agree with Seamus on the issue of a new species being created in captive conditions. Although, as we've discussed, there are natural hybrids that eventually became recognised species, these occurred under wild NATURAL conditions. A population of kings and milks that have a natural intergrade zone could possibly give rise to new subspecies and/or species under natural conditions(ex: red milks and blotched kings).

I will side that captive hybrids are fascinating and that I think there's no problem with people breeding them, but new species they are not.
 
I have spoken to two scientists a biologista and a herpetologist about this, and to a developmental psychologist who deals heavily in genetic theopries. and all agree that if the new hybrids bred true and had a chromosione count that was different thatn either of the two snakes that crossed in the first place, then it would indeed be a new species. The breeding true part is the hard part as most crosses wind up being mules or sterile. I only point this out as a possibility. Once upon a time not too long ago in the world of science there were lots of other things believed impossible that we now take for granted. Since snakes are able to reproduce across species lines and even on some occasions across gnerea lines, just imagine what would happen if they ever produced such offspring. Even without doing such, for an animal to be able to produce offspring from an intergenera breeding is something that deserves lots of scientific investigation. Is it possible that snakes are doing something no other animal is known to do, or is it more likely that we humans have screwed up their classification and many snakes (not all but some)are "breeds" like dogs instead of different species.
 
I do agree and acknowledge that a lot of our taxonomic classifications are probably pretty incorrect, or would turn out to be if a better natural history of the organisms involved were understood, but that is why they can change.

Intraspecies fertility is not an indication of two organisms being an identical species unto itself and neither is any similarity in their respective genomes, the most important factor in determining species is the question of naturally occurring reproduction, not simply the possibility of reproduction... There's a serious difference between the two concepts.

Since I don't want to clutter it up again, please view the other thread, specifically the quote by E.O.Wilson that I utilized on the second page over there for a better understanding of this.

Genetic compatibility under lab conditions is not entirely without use, it would help pinpoint animals that had common ancestry with much better accuracy than the all too often incomplete fossil chains that have been used in the past but common ancestry should not be mistaken as an automatic inclusion into the same species, merely the same genus or family grouping where no link was thought to exist before.

Hopefully I can do this without turning it into a debate about the validity of Darwinistic evolutionary principles because those never end and don't usually end up being much fun but...

A species is a group of naturally interbreeding organisms, in addition to simple genetic compatibility, there are additional factors of a behavioral nature that serve to isolate populations from other populations, however similar, even when occupying the same range and encountering one another...

A subspecies designation is given when there is a naturally interbreeding population of animals that are displaying a different phenotype which only interbreed across a narrow zone of intergradiation or those which have a larger range and the animals at assorted ends can be said to be isolated from certain other animals in the population, the size of the range causes the animals to evolve to meet different conditions and thus the subspecific designations are given.

A genus, very very very very loosely defined would be a group of species that can be hypothesized to have common ancestry relatively recently in terms of biological history, they share broader common traits and would be similar on a genetic level...

Now comes the fun part where I try and simplify evolutionary theory into a few sentences...

Given a basic premise that animals evolve over time, altering subtly as populations meet assorted factors (I'm not willing to argue about creationism, I respect the views of those who believe in it but currently accepted taxonomic science is based in evolutionary principles), this can change all of a population or it can change parts of a population depending on the factors the organisms are altering to meet. Looking at species with a larger range, it's easy to accept that the individual animals at extreme ends of a population will encounter different environmental conditions, different predators, different prey, different geographical features and so on... the animals in a given area will alter on a biological level to adapt to the local conditions. Given multiple successive generations adapting to different conditions, the populations might look very different... more importantly they will likely act very different, respond to identical stimulus in subtly different ways and, most importantly, have developed different imperatives and instincts for breeding. The period of time when the population still represents a breeding group but displays separate characteristics is a period of time when they can be classified as a subspecies, the period of time after they cease interbreeding would be when a separate species classification is warranted. As Rob pointed out, the process can work in reverse if the populations are forced back together early enough in that development, when such is found to be the case, the taxonomy should be changed to place the animals in the same species with subspecific classifications designated to the -almost- isolated populations.

The important factor in all this is that it happens naturally, at a seemingly monolithically slow pace, in response to naturally occurring events. Forcing the animals together in artificial conditions has a tendency to retard certain natural behaviors, which invalidates those intrinsic isolating mechanisms that keep the species separate in nature.

An easy example of species that theoretically have a common ancestor not too far back and certainly come into contact with one another would be say... Green tree frogs and grey tree frogs here in the U.S. The populations overlap, the animals are biologically very similar despite some outward differences in appearance, the mating seasons are similar and they are in the same Genus... So why aren't they interbreeding and why aren't they identified as the same species? Working off conjecture for a moment, I am fairly certain that they would be genetically compatible should someone take the time to artificially inseminate a few clutches of eggs, there could likely be a forced production of offspring... if you manipulated them enough, you could probably even get them to cross on their own in captivity... But they are not the same species and at this point appear far too separated to ever combine naturally (as in the examples Rob gave with the kings)... because of instinctive behavioral tendencies that isolate the populations from one another when it comes to copulation.

My personal opinion on Hybridization is quite negative, I dislike the idea of it occurring in the pet trade and I really don't see much point in forcing it under lab conditions since there are more accurate ways of determining the genetic distance individual species hold from one another. Subspecific intergradiation is a bit of a grey area for me, I make the determinations and form my opinion on a case by case basis, if there is a zone of significant interbreeding in the wild between the two specific subspecies in question, I do not mind them in captivity provided they are properly represented (although do still like the concept of a pure animal better), when dealing with species that have three or more subspecies, it depends on the natural likelihood of the subspecies in question crossing in nature, some are separate, some are not...
 
I have spoken to two scientists a biologista and a herpetologist about this, and to a developmental psychologist who deals heavily in genetic theopries. and all agree that if the new hybrids bred true and had a chromosione count that was different thatn either of the two snakes that crossed in the first place, then it would indeed be a new species.

When speaking to these individuals did you specify that this was a cross occuring in a controlled captive setting? The point being, any animal engineered outside of the wild will simply never receive unique taxonomic classification, therefore a man made hybrid cannot become a true species. If it could, as I mentioned before, every person keeping snakes would hold the possibility of adding and naming new species.

On the issue of the chromosome counts, I see where they are coming from, but you cannot automatically designate new species based solely on the offspring having a different number.
To illustrate, humans have 46 chromosomes but can produce children with a different number. Downs syndrome for instance is the result of a single additional chromosome, these children are not speciated.

The breeding true part is the hard part as most crosses wind up being mules or sterile.

While this may be true outside the reptile realm, all known crosses of snakes have resulted in fertile offspring capable of breeding with each other and both parent species. This includes the intergeneric cross of corns and kings.
Both Elaphe and Lampropeltis have 36 chromosomes. This number is of course based on the counts that have been done. I would feel certain that every species in each genus has not been subjected to a chromosome count.
This likely contributes to the success of this cross. However, even with like chromosome counts, I can't see them being combined taxonomically. In fact the Elaphe genus is being further broken up.
 
HYBRIDS..THIS INDUSTRY *PLEASE READ*

In an INDUSTRY that is forever hungy for something...ANYTHING new, HYBRIDS often represent a "Last-Ditch" effort for a failed breeder to get his name widely known and make some financial return on his snakes. Sadly, these hybrids are often products of breeders who have NEVER bred anything else, and their first attempt and captive propagation is this abomination. Sad.


Part of it is the breeders fault, these animals are not VEHICLES for us to"Become" somebody, they are sentient beings. I am not inferring that we bestow them with all the rights that humans possess, but to hold them in captivity and puposefully breed them with another snake that would NEVER intergrade with them in the wild, that is a crime in my book.


Part of the fault lies in the "BUYING public". They just want something "PRETTY" The people are totally DETACHED from the natural biome that these animals eminate from. Ask the average buyer of a Dumerills boa where on the map his snake comes from, and I BET you that a good healthy percentage of them couldnt tell you. We have separated these animals from their enviornment, as if they were some separate entity, alone, when they are part of a BIGGER makeup, a BIGGER picture. The """"BUYING"" public thats looking for a *Pretty snake* doesnt CARE where it came from, and trying to get these people to understand, appreciate and fight for enviornmental issues that can help preserve that habitat is an all but mute point. "I got my snake, its pretty,I dont care where it came from"

Man made hybrids have no niche in nature. Often the snakes used do not have the same psyiological nor mental or behavioral behaviours. Arboreal species have been crossed with species that are not related that spend the vast majority of their time on the ground. We create abberrations, pat ourselves on the back for makeing something pretty, then sell them to a public that either has never been taught the beauty of a habitat and the snakes place in it, or doesnt care.


I bought Madagascar Ground Boas a year back. I delved into books and periodicals galore to try to find info on them. I read books on Madagascar, fascinated withthe island and its rich fauna. I lamented when I read about the destruction of habitat that is occuring their daily. And I vowed to one day try and produce more of these snakes. But that opened the door to Madagascars wildlife for me, which was hard to shut. I bought a few more Madagascan reptiles(Not snakes) that were c/b)

And you know what?

Some GUY emailed me to let me know that he had Madagascar Ground boa/Colombian boa crosses! And would I be interested in any!!



***THIS** is what I am talking about. BREEDERS without a shred of decency producing snakes that will potentially, at least in the short term..SELL FOR THEM. Money...money....money
And BRAGGING Rights....and glossy PICS.


Sorry but it disgusts me. And more are produced every day, by brand name breeders in this industry. Money....something new......money.....money.......money....bragging rights.....money.


And it has become commonplace to see threads on kingsnake, entire threads, just on new hybrids. And everyone is sooo enthusiastic about it. To bad its not a rare snake..like a angolan python, or a snake with a spotty reproductive history....like
a Boelens python. No.....that would be to COMMONPLACE.
Or perhaps just to hard, and take to long.
After all....we want money and fame SOON dont we.


Hybrids?

They just plain suck.


sincerely,

Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles
 
Fred, Seaumus, et al..

Do you think it would be possible or more importantly a situation where it would be benefitial to have hybrids that were not developed out of greed?
 
I understand exactly where you are coming from Fred.
It's crosses like the one you mention that are the worst form of this unfortunate trend.

To take a Madagascan ground boa, a snake not that common in captivity, and squandering the breeding effort crossing it with a colombian boa is a complete waste. Here we have a species that has a small captive population with poor chances of increasing that number by any real margin and instead of working to produce the species, and try to diversify the bloodlines as best we can with what we have, it is uselessly hybridized.

We see the same thing with hog island boas. These snakes being what is believed to be a naturally occuring hypomelanistic species is ripe for crossing into true red tails. I have already seen the cross with surinames available this month with the eye grabbing ad title of "Hypo suriname".
It is quite possible from what I have read that the hog island may be extinct in the wild. This means what we have is all we will have. To waste these bloodlines by polluting them through hybridization is unconscionable. Yet for the sake of producing another "pretty snake" it is done without thought by many.
It's these short term goals fed by greed and desire for recognition that are eating away at our hobby.

This is one area that causes me to dread what we will have 20 years from now. Habitat destruction at its current rate is going to leave many species with captivity as their only hope for survival. If that is not protected and respected, it will be lost. The seeds are being sown now, what will we harvest a decade down the road?
 
I have a question for everyone that has responded to this thread so far:

Is this the definition of hybrid that you are all going by:

1 : an offspring of two animals or plants of different races, breeds, varieties, species, or genera (from Miriam Webster Dictionary)

This is the definition of hybrid as I have been using it to describe all of the inter-species, inter-subspecies inter-genera, inter-breed crosses I have been talking about. Is this basically the same one all of you are using, or is there some other definition of hybrid that I have been missing?

The reason I am asking is because I first heard from someone who said he is against crosses but has a breed of dog that has been obtained through selective breeding (yes hybrids are often created by breeding animals of the same species albeit with different traits to select the desired trait), and another person or two complained pretty strongly about breeders selling hybrids and actually making money off of it, and someone also said, and I quote:

"Hybrids?
They just plain suck."

Well pardon me, but I also recently visited a web site, wherein one of you guys is pictured, yes I do mean you Fred, who complains that hybrids are in essence terrible, and who made that hybrids suck statement. Guess what I saw on the website. I saw you, one of the main in opposition to hybrids, holding a hybrid snake (unless I am terribly mistaken). That snake was listed as belonging to you in the photo caption. Go figure, what is up with that? You guys are giving me an argument against hybrids but yet you guys are keeping hybrids???????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I understand that Clay thinks the particular breed of dog in question was hybridized about 10,000 (or 20,000) years ago, but that is quite incorrect from what I understand. Go onto a good dog website or get a good book about the breed to find out when it was first selected for through selective breeding. The domestic dog was bred way back when, but not all the individual breeds were hybridized back then. I think you will find the breed (hybrid) you have does not go back more at most than a few hundred years, and has been further changed through selective breeding in much more recent years. Yes a dog breed is a hybrid that was produced through selective breeding. As for the hybrid snake that Fred was proudly displaying, a salmon hypo whatever, in that website photo, well I kind of doubt that a salmon hypo whatever it was (or the leucistic pine that was also pictured) goes back more than 20 or 30 years, at most, in the history of selective breeding of captive snakes.

Of course maybe you guys only mean hybrids are bad when it is other people who want to breed or keep them but I truly doubt that you guys are like this. More likely, you only mean inter-species, or inter-genera crosses. If that is what you think, then please say so, don't blanket all hybrids as bad when you keep em yourselves (and Clay you may have done that already - I just cannot find it right now). And by the way, I hope neither of you means inter-grades (inter-subspecies crosses) as these occur quite often in nature where ranges cross.

As clarification for my stand: I do understand that some hybrids are kind of ridiculous to produce such as the boa crosses that someone wrote about. Why anyone would try to breed an endangered species with a Colombian Boa is beyond me except if it was done for money or just to see if it could be done. I do agree that such should not happen, at least until that is, there are lots more of the endangered species around because of good breeding programs that brought it back. But look at this another way. Is there a species of recently extinct snake out there, that is close to another species genetically? Is there viable genetic material left over from that extinct species in a museum freezer somewhere? Could that genetic material be combined with a living snake from the closely related species and produce viable young. Could the process of selectively breeding the offspring with one another eventually produce a snake that is 99.9 percent the extinct species. Would that snake be something of value????? Boy I wonder if that would work with birds – I have always wanted to see a flock of passenger pigeons or a bunch of Dodos and yes I would settle for a 99 percent passenger pigeon or Dodo. (Yeah I know where I can find a real dodo right now but looking in the mirror is just not the same thing as what I mean - so please don't go there {LOL}). Does this sound like science fiction - because scientists are sure hoping to be able to do this with Mastodon remains (or was it Mammoth remains) and an elephant - and they are quite serious about it. Hybridization, I see scientific value for it, not only hobby value, although I can accept both. Just to let you know - I am kind of a purist as far as my own collection goes - egads I even breed less than desirable species such as Garter NSakes, Smooth Green Snakes, and Gopher Snakes (no hybrids yet).

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
To GLENN

Dear Glen,

Perhaps you need to take a GOODlook in the mirror, and use windex to clarify what you see. Let me explain:

The Salmon Hypo boas you have no doubt seen on my outdated webshots account were purchased from Rich Ihle, a gentleman that I have come to know as a fellow vendor at MANY of the same shows on the west coast. I bought them because they were pretty, popular and truly did not knowthey were hybrids when I got them. I found out several years later and summarily GOT RID OF THEM. I no longer have them , though the pics sit on a webshots account I barely use anymore....


Let me clarify:

HYBRIDS..the result of breeding two diffrent types of snakes together that would NEVER intergrade in the wild is wrong.
They have no natural history...
They ave no natural niche.....
They have two differentsets of behaviour based on their TWO 2)
different sets of parents.

Often people breed snakes together that are bothhe same type(I.e both boa constrictors) but from diffrent locales, locales that often dont even often overlap. Again....a limited amount of these snakes come in, and instead of at least TRYING to breed one locale of boa to another from the same locale.

Glen....you look for INCONSISTENCIES in peoples observations, testimonials or beliefs. This makes you no better than the trolls that inhabit kingsnake.com and are allowed to stay there seemingly forever.

Bottem line:I dont breed Hybrids,I never will,I would rather have a collection of single sex snakes that are of diffrent species, jsu as pets.


Also....breeding diffrent types of dogs together isnt hybridization, they are ALL the same animal, just diffrent morphs of the SAME snake.


Thats all,

Fred Albury
 
I employ a definition of hybrid as follows:

Any breeding of two animals of different taxonomic classification. Be it different genera, species, or sub-species. The only exception to this would be where the ranges of two individuals of different sub-species overlap, these would be termed intergrades.
An an illustration, L. g. californiae X L. g. splendida would be considered an intergrade by my definition, whereas L. g. californiae x L. g. getula would be considered a hybrid. Inter-subspecies crosses are a bit of a gray area with differing opinions, I consider the possibility of natural intergradation when applying the term. Others however, label all inter-subspecies crosses as intergrades.

The reason I am asking is because I first heard from someone who said he is against crosses but has a breed of dog that has been obtained through selective breeding (yes hybrids are often created by breeding animals of the same species albeit with different traits to select the desired trait),

I continue to regret ever bringing up the issue of dogs to illustrate a point, but once more, hybrids cannot be derived by the crossing of two animals of the same species, or taxonomic classification.
Despite the definition given in Webster's, inter-breed crosses are not hybrids. Some may apply the term to such offspring, but that does not make it accurate.

I understand that Clay thinks the particular breed of dog in question was hybridized about 10,000 (or 20,000) years ago, but that is quite incorrect from what I understand. Go onto a good dog website or get a good book about the breed to find out when it was first selected for through selective breeding. The domestic dog was bred way back when, but not all the individual breeds were hybridized back then.......................Yes a dog breed is a hybrid that was produced through selective breeding.

Unless the breed in question was developed using canines of a different species, then my statement was completely correct. Selective breeding within the confines of a species has absolutely nothing to do with hybridization, nor are hybrids produced by such breedings. Remember my earlier example of cornsnake morphs? So, no, a dog breed is NOT a hybrid produced by selective breeding.
Breeding a wolf to a domestic dog results in a hybrid, the two have different taxonomic classifications. Breeding a poodle to a pit bull does not result in a hybrid, those two are taxonomically the same animal.
"Breeds" are nothing more than a man made system of names to keep track of variations of an animal he has created outside of nature. The term cannot be crossed over into a taxonomic setting, because taxonomy does not recognize breeds, only genera, species etc. The same is true of domestic horses, cows, and pigs.
I hope this clarifies the dog breed question and the issue can be put to rest. If not I'll try to word it differently.

More likely, you only mean inter-species, or inter-genera crosses. If that is what you think, then please say so, don't blanket all hybrids as bad when you keep em yourselves (and Clay you may have done that already - I just cannot find it right now).

I do blanket all hybrids as bad, using the definition of hybrid I outlined above. And no, I do not keep hybrids, so I have not done that already. Just to reassert the statement, my dog is not a hybrid.

I do see where you are going with the "salvage the extinct" strategy. However in reality, this method with most species will be doomed to failure as a result of inbreeding. Unless the pricess was repeated with many original animals, the needed selective breeding to bring out the desired genetics will cripple the efforts for lack of fresh blood.
They can and most likely will bring about some form of mastadon hybrid, but the chances of actually creating a self sustaining breeding group of these immense animals is slim.
With today's cloning technology, this will be a much more feasible method of regaining lost species once it is perfected, assuming enough individual genetic material is available to create an initially diverse group.

The salmon boas are a perfect example of part of what I am saying. I readily admit to not putting forth much effort to keep my finger on the pulse of the lastest morph trends with many species, and until this thread I did not know salmon boas were hybrids.
This is a common occurance now that hybrids are given catchy names. Without realizing the history of the salmon boa I could have easily added some of these to my collection and unintentionally wasted an entire year's boa work or more by producing hybrids.
How many more people are equally underinformed in this area with this and other commonly produced mutts. I have seen albino alterna offered for sale as such with no further information. I know that there has not yet been an albino alterna discovered, and that these snakes are the result of hybridization, but how many other people who think these are pretty snakes do not realize that?
The damage resulting from the practice of hybridization has not even begun to be displayed yet.
 
Clay and Fred,

Clay,

I just wanted to say thanks for the explanation of your point. I am not trying to belittle you in any way by bringing up the dog thing, but am trying to use what I believe is a good example of hybridization. I think you already know this judging by the quality of your reply. By the way, as far as I am aware - hybridization does indeed include crosses of the same species with different traits to produce a selected trait. I understand that we seem to disagree with each other on this point; however your explaining what you mean by hybrid does make your stand much easier for me to understand even if I disagree with parts of it.

As for the definition of hybrid, Miriam/Webster may be correct. I did some checking about hybrids on the web and in a dictionary. I found a rather interesting link on the web, one that goes to the source so to speak. Here is a link to a paper written by the guy who started it all: EXPERIMENTS IN PLANT HYBRIDIZATION (yes it was written in the 1860s by Mendel himself)

I will admit I have not read it in its entirety, but read just enough to see that a hybrid was apparently considered (by Mendel) to be the resultant offspring of a mating between two members of the same species (among other types of crosses that would also be included such as inter-species mating) which had different characteristics, such as subspecies and such as - no I won't go there again because I'll only wind up in the doghouse (LOL)..


Fred,

I am not trolling at all. I posted a question and my opinions. Is that trolling simply because I asked a question or because my opinion differs from yours? No it is not. Is it trolling because I pointed out an apparent inconsistency - no again! Pointing out an inconsistency, would be the responsible thing, in my opinion, to do if one is aware of it. Should I accept someone else’s argument when it seems based upon inconsistency? I think not! You explained in your later post that you had a change of mind about hybrids, and to me that would have been sufficient to wipe out any inconsistency that had been apparent beforehand. I guess you believed it was not enough and that name calling and being disrespectful was called for. That is too bad, it was a better thread without such being introduced.

You seemed not to like out the fact that I pointed out an apparent inconsistency regarding your stand. I pointed out what seemed inconsistent to me, but then asked that you respond to it to explain yourself. That is not trolling, in my opinion, but that is keeping up a good and intelligent correspondence. Clay responded to me with answers and opinions of his own as did others including yourself. While giving your answer, you however, give it a different twist than did Clay. He was quite respectful. You get nasty, then have the nerve to tell me to look in the mirror and that I am trolling when I point out what seemed to be the inconsistency! Oh come now. I was not looking for inconsistencies when I visited that photo website, wherein I found the picture of you holding a hybrid. I did however have some interest in finding out more about with whom I was communicating. Since I did not see a web site listed for you in your profile, I typed your name into my browser and there was the address for the aforementioned site. I was pretty surprised in an impressed sort of way that I found a site about you in the manner in which I did. Once there I looked at the pics. If I happened to see a glaring inconsistency from what you said to how you were pictured, well don't you think that such was germane to this conversation - I do! That is why I asked you about it in my follow up post to your original post in this thread. I was not doing it to troll. I always thought, among other things, it was the trolls who posted the inconsistencies to sucker other guys into an argument. In other words that it did not matter to them what they said as far as being consistent with their own viewpoints so long as they could fan the flames of an argument. I guess even our definition of troll differs. No I am not implying you are a troll because you apparently posted what I had believed to be an inconsistency. I do believe that you have the right to change your mind. I do think though, that your initial answer to my posting was uncalled for in that you refer to me as trolling and no better than someone else which was obviously meant in a derogatory manner.

I do know one thing, when I look in the mirror, I may see some of the nine year old who used to be me, but I do not see a troll nor do I see a hypocrite! When I read your original post in this thread, and then saw those pictures of you with the hybrid, I could have easily imagined you to be either - BUT that is not what I did. Instead I asked you to explain yourself, and even pointed out that I did not think you the type of guy to believe it was ok for you to keep em but not for anyone else to keep em. Sure I change my mind about things, just as you are free to do the same. I wonder though, how do you think I was supposed to know that these shots were old as you now say, or for that matter that you had changed your ideas on the subject. The only way I would know is if you or someone else told me. You decided to tell me, but at the same time decided to become, in my opinion, very disrespectful. Instead of giving a respectful answer when I remained respectful albeit quite skeptical (and yes I can be respectful while remaining skeptical), you say that I am no better than the trolls at kingsnake.com. I was not trolling nor was my answer to your post meant to be disrespectful, nor should it have been taken by anyone as such. You have read my posts before, including one in which I essentially wrote that: 'I write what I mean and do not bandy about with implication'. In fact if you go my reply, to you, on this thread, and reread what I wrote, you will see: I give you the benefit of the doubt and give you an opportunity to explain further. I do not call you troll or say you are no better than someone else despite the opportunity to immediately label you as a hypocrite. I do not attack you, but instead ask for an explanation. Now as for citing inconsistencies, well Fred, I call it as I see it! Again this is not trolling. Maybe you never noticed but trolls are usually the ones who leave inflammatory, disrespectful, and inconsistent questions and or answers, and are not the ones who point out inconsistencies and ask for an explanation.

Fred - I took a look in the mirror so to speak and reread my post with an air of reflection. What I saw was what I just described. Maybe you had better look in the mirror to see what you see, but instead of that, may I suggest: you reread my post and then reread yours - there is not an insult in mine!

Best regards,
Glenn Bartley
 
Well, scientists can't even come to a full agreement on the definition of a species, so it cannot be expected for there to be an all encompassing definition of hybrid, since what defines a hybrid is in part determined by what defines a species.

A definition of hybrid from the Mendel website you linked to:

hybrid
1. The offspring of two species of the same genus, or two varieties of the same species. 2. A plant obtained by the pollen of one species uniting with the stigma or egg of another. 3. something composed of elements of different kinds or types. From the Latin Hybrida ("mongrel"), the English term was first used in its biological sense around 1600.

Although the term hybrid now enjoys a fairly precise definition, in Mendel's time both hybrid and hybridization were often used to describe cross-fertilization between any species or varieties that were thought by breeders to be significantly different. The term "mule" was then used to denote sterile hybrids. Today, we believe that the offspring of two different species, if they come to be born at all, will be sterile; thus, we would say that what Mendel calls a "hybrid" is really the offspring or progeny of distinct varieties rather than species.

The second paragraph shows the flaw. They state that we believe any inter-species cross will result in sterile offspring. This is false when applied to reptiles, I know of no such cross that has failed to result in fertile offspring.
Their definition is evidentally based on Mendel's work which centered around plants. The differences between botany and the study of vertebrate organisms is significant enough to make it difficult to cross the lines with some definitions.
Mendel also made no provision for the breeding of seperate genera.

Here's another quote from a man who started it all, Charles Darwin in 1859:
I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given for the sake of convenience to a set of individuals closely resembling each other..it does not essentially differ from the term variety which is given to less distinct and more fluctuating forms.

He equates varieties with species. It is not difficult to imagine a serious scientist of the day such as Mendel being influenced by such a definition and as a result define hybrids as he did. As I said, the definition of hybrid relies heavily on one's accepted definition of a species.

Aristotle was first to define species I believe. He divided plants into trees, bushes, and herbs, and animals into those with or without circulatory systems.
Observe the changes that have come about in that area. Changes have also come about in the 140 years since Mendel.
As science advances, more precise terms are often required.

The biggest problem with that definition is that science has no provision to recognize organisms which are artifacts of man's influence in captivity. These organisms have not been described, nor can they be, and therefore there is no tangible way to grasp them as being independant of others within their own taxonomic classification.

Do you consider a snow corn to be a hybrid? If you follow Mendel's definition then you must. A snow is the result of a cross between two varieties, an amelanistic and an anerythristic.
If you do not consider snow corns hybrids then why not? Is it because the two color phases (varieties) are still the same animal?
If breeds (varieties) of those four legged animals we are not mentioning are hybrids, then every color and pattern morph of every snake in captivity is as well. It's the A=B and B=C idea, one cannot be true without the other also being true.

What it boils down to is the word hybrid, as well as the word species is just that, words created by humans to convey an idea. In these cases though the exact idea is subjective according to the perspective of the person using the word.
 
Do you think it would be possible or more importantly a situation where it would be benefitial to have hybrids that were not developed out of greed?

Steve, intending no offense but... I don't see any situation where producing a hybrid animal that wasn't intended for food production could possibly be useful, in the pet trade I see no point to it whatsoever...

Admittedly a lot of hybridization initially occurred "accidently" or even naturally in some instances; zoos where a solitary female snake ended up gravid when kept in a multi-species display, freshly imported emmies dropping hybrid neonates but I feel these represent two separate and distinct situations. The zoos were not generally the ones to perpetuate the hybridization, others learned of the genetic compatibility and forced it themselves for sale in the pet trade... and the emmie x ATB example represents either evidence which supports darwinistic evolutionary stances of common anscestry and adaptation or it's entirely possible that even these fresh imports were caged together in captivity prior to being exported from the country of origin and they represent just one more forced fluke created under artificial conditions.

Fred, I don't think Glenn was acting as a troll in the least, he was actually making an argument against the hybridization of animals, althouhg he may not have realized it and it's common practice in any debate, even friendly ones, to cast slight dispersions on the credibility of the information being provided by others...

I do feel that his post suggesting that you were a one time owner of a hybrid becomes important in the arguments against their creation though, nobody will deny that Fred is very much so an educated consumer, nobody can deny that he has made his position on captive hybridization quite clear... yet at one point he purchased a hybrid animal unknowingly, so the argument about "Those who produce them are always upfront and honestly represent the animals" goes right out the window and we are left with "There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who will misrepresent or fail to represent the lineage and genetics of the hybrids they produce, both damaging the long term breeding populations and ripping off their immediate customer."

Glenn, defining the use of the word hybrid is quite important in these discussions, and something which Rob and I ended up discussing on the other thread which took this direction. The dictionary definitions aren't nearly as specific as the deffinitions used when looking at this from a scientific standpoint, which I believe we are all trying to do, as they also must represent some of the common usages of the word, or older usages which no longer fully apply (as in the Mendel pea experiment). Common use of the word conjures up remembrances of comments such as "This hybrid of electric car and gasoline will revolutionize..." and "This television show represents a hybridization of classic eastern philosophy with a western attitude!"... Neither of which applies in the least when discussing the ethics or validity of hybridization of separate and distinct species of reptile from a taxonomic standpoint.

I certainly can't force anyone to comply with my definitions but I would suggest the following list, at least for this particular conversation, to try and stop some of those misunderstandings that occur when people are using the same word for different things...

Hybrid- A cross between two separate species of organism.

Naturally occurring intergrade- a cross between two subspecies (of the same species) of organism that occurs in nature.

Non-Naturally occurring intergrade- a cross of two subspecies (of the same species) that does not occur in nature.

Breed/Morph- a phenotypal mutation within a specific species i.e.- albino, hyperxanthic, miniature poodle.

Locale/locality- a country of origin or region of origin that is commonly accepted, occasionally but not automatically identical to subspecies.

Species and Subspecies, perhaps we should agree on a specific resource in order to maintain continuity... is the EMBL acceptable to all participants for current and accepted taxonomic designations?

Hopefully we can utilize these as common terms in order to facilitate discussion and any deviation from (or corrections/addendums to) the terms I have listed above can be easily noted in the body of any further messages when the poster wishes to deviate from the above suggested uses.

Lets all try to keep this above the belt with one another and not let it degrade into personal insults (Rob still has my matches by the way), it is possible to disagree utterly with someone and still not get insulting (I'm probably not the best example of how to go about that but in this instance I respect everyone who has so far posted on the subject and I know how quickly these discussions can degrade when someone decides to be... less than polite...).

I'm going to assume that people are using the same terms I am from this point on unless they specifically tell me otherwise. I am open to debate on the validity of terms used now when compared to the vernacular or past usage but I don't think it'll get us anywhere in terms of conclusions.

Thanks.
 
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