Interesting but unethical Hybrid attempt.

[Griz]

that last pic, can someone tell me what species those are please?

Those would be a female Columbian and a male Ball Python.

Griz

 

[Southwick Herps]

Those would be a female Columbian and a male Ball Python.

Griz

Colombian??? It's a burm.

 

[Bill & Amy]

I think they are talking about the pic Griz posted in post #53.

 

[Griz]

that last pic, can someone tell me what species those are please?

Colombian??? It's a burm.

The request was rather ambiguous. The last pic in the thread is a Columbian and a BP. The last pic in the very first posting is a burm. It all depends on what Amayon was asking.

Griz

 

[Southwick Herps]

Oh geeze, Im sorry Griz, didn't even realize there was a colombian pic posted. Sorry man.

 

[nita3ggg]

The problem I see with hybridization is the potential for contamination in a collection. I have seen superballs (blood x ball) that look like a really kick butt normal ball and eventually I can see that ending up being sold as a unique ball. At least name them as hybrids, angolan ball we know is an angolan python crossed ball python, the blood ball should be called just that not a superball. At least with a burm ball you shouldn't be able to mistake it for a pure ball

 

[liquidleaf]

Right. I'm a bit on the fence - I think some closely related (species-wise, size-wise AND geographically speaking, where it might occur naturally anyway) such as Carpondros and some kingsnakes aren't so bad in my mind.

But such extreme (burmxball) hybridization attempts risk so many problems - the gamble of WHICH offspring will carry which characteristics - how big will those snakes get? Some might only get to be 5 ft long, some the full burm size, and everything inbetween. Some could be fairly even mixes so it would be an unmistakable hybrid just by looking at it, but others could look so much like one parent that there would be the chance of them be bred as normals at some point. What if those "burm" genes surface at some point in the future, and some person who thinks they're buying a CB ball python get instead a 10ft "hidden" hybrid?

It's not really like dog breeds at all - dog breeds are really like human races. People who are "line bred" so to speak tend to wind up sharing certain traits, like facial features, height (or lack thereof), and skintone. Hybridization is a risky experiment, and not the same as breeding to achieve a pastel colored animal. Look at the strange things that happen with "ligers" and "tigons" - depending on if a lion is father or mother, a lion x tiger cross can lack a limiting growth hormone and get MUCH larger than either a normal tiger or lion can grow. What if something like this happens with these other hybridizations?

I think BCC x BCI crosses are ok, as long as it's well documented, since these animals' territories can overlap. But I also think attempts must always be made to keep a "pure stock" and hybridization does clould that ability with the presence of unscrupulous breeders and the risk of loss of heritage information, which happens to many animals as they change owners.

 

[Biscuit71]

I can see no real problems with it as long as whatever offspring that is produced is sold (if it is sold) AS a hybrid. There have been alot of comparisons between dogs and snakes and such... I think the same argument about not mixing can be used with anyhting from slugs all the way up to people. SOme dogs shouldnt be mixed... can they mix, yes, but they shouldnt be... You wouldnt mix a Great Dane with a Pug... Hybridization is how new species are created... maybe not by people playing "god" as some people like to call it, but animals with similar characteristics meeting by chance in the wild and producing something new that may carry on in the wild or may not. Face it... if somehting can be crossed it will be and no amount of flaming or calling it wrong will change that. I think about 90% of the columbrids i see out there are some sort of cross ... never see anyone really complaineing about that.. You can go to any pet store and see Puggles and Schnoodles, and cockapoos... Chickens have been crossed and uncorssed for years... make them bigger or fatter, or better layers.. horses, have been crossed with donkeys, and the Zebra... everywhere you look you will see different types and occurances of hybridization, they just dont hit as close to "home" as the subject of crossing snakes....... think about that next time you bite into a piece of chicken. In the end it comes down to If it can be done, someone WILL do it.. they want to be a first.. they want to be know an the person / breeder that was the first to do it.. Nobody slams the people that HAVE done it.. I know that NERD does Bateaters.. yet people dont slam them about doing it... they say "cool snake". Makes me wonder if it is more of a case of WHO is doing the hybridization or not. Would someone slam NERD or one of the other big breeders if they were doing it? (sorry Kevin and Kara... NERD just came to mind because your so well known)
Anyway, Ill get off my soap box... have fun in whatever you want to do... its all that matters in the end anyway. :scatter:

 

[hhmoore]

Just for the record, a lot has been said about NERD and some of their creations
(I've given up trying to explain to people that mixing different breeds of dogs is no more hybridization than breeding a creamsicle corn to an okatee corn or an American with an Asian...breed does not equal species)

 

[Scott Ashton]

Just for the record, a lot has been said about NERD and some of their creations
(I've given up trying to explain to people that mixing different breeds of dogs is no more hybridization than breeding a creamsicle corn to an okatee corn or an American with an Asian...breed does not equal species)

You should see my dog snake.

 

[Rakshasanyc]

I can see no real problems with it as long as whatever offspring that is produced is sold (if it is sold) AS a hybrid.

I don't have any particular problem with Blood x Ball crosses or Burm x Retic crosses. I do have a problem with Blood x Angolan crosses and Carpet x Diamond crosses.

There's no shortage of Bloods, Balls, Burms or Retics in captivity. There aren't a whole lot of Angolan Pythons or 100% Diamond Pythons available. I'd hate to see a 75%/25% Angolan/Ball introduced unknowingly into that very limited stock. As I understand it, there are already a lot of 75%/25% or 88%/12% Diamond/Carpet crosses being sold as pure Diamonds.(*)

(*)Yes, I know that Carpets and Diamonds are officially different subspecies within a species. They're unique enough to deserve preservation in any event.

 

[hhmoore]

Just a little bit of background, for those that may not know - Diamond/carpet crosses are a naturally occuring intergrade, which is fairly common knowledge. Comments about preserving the integrity of the species notwithstanding, it is a bit difficult to argue against it since Mother Nature has given it her blessing. Aside from that, there were "legitimate" reasons that the practice became common here in the States. Diamond pythons were outrageously expensive (no, that is not one of the "legitimate" reasons I mentioned, but I am sure it played a role also), and proved to be difficult to breed. Males tended to be disinterested in the concept, and many people were of the idea that one needed to maintain diamonds in different ratios than other snakes - where we typically keep several females for each male, the reverse of this became the logic du jour for diamonds. When that method found limited success, many breeders started putting proven Jungle carpets in with their females (or adding the female diamonds to their JC groups, as the case may have been). This, of course, worked; and the progeny were gorgeous and well received.
Another problem with diamonds was that individuals, and even entire collections were falling prey to a mysterious illness...characterized by brittle bones, poor muscle tone, and frequently respiratory infections that responded poorly to treatment. This became known simply as the diamond syndrome.
Now, back to the comments about 75% and 88% diamonds being passed of as pure. Most of the 75% diamonds I have seen have been easily discernible as crosses (I say most in case some stellar specimen slipped through unrecognized). As for the 88%ers, a common argument that I have read goes something to the effect of: If some of these are unknowingly introduced to the gene pool, how much impact will it really have if the recipients breed them true?
Besides, since diamonds and carpets interbreed in nature, how can you ever be sure that the founding stock is 100% pure anyway?

*edit* My apologies to the ball python people - I thought this thread was in a different forum. While my post adheres to the general topic at hand, it is better suited to discussion in a more generalized forum.
H.

 

[kmurphy]

Does anyone know the result of the orignal post - ball/burm?

 

[Southwick Herps]

I never saw an update, but I think it's pretty safe to say that it was a failure. If it had successfully created a burm x ball cross, it would've been widely known quickly.

 

[bluecoral77]

I don't completely agree with this, none the less, i hope the babies hatch beautiful and most important, healthy, if they can produce healthy offspring that thrive as though they were 100% Burmese or ball python babies, then have at it, i am only interested in the well being of the offspring and parents, if this experiment produces dead or dysfunctional babies, i am against it, otherwise, i am for it.

 

[Dougie]

Breeding 2 different species is wrong! For those that disagree, go hook up with an ape.
Then you'll have COOL babies.
Can't believe people do that.

 

[snake5007]

Well, people actually hook up with animals quite a bit on some very disgusting sites, so to see them hook up with a chimp would at least bring them a bit closer to their own species.