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Is she a good breeding size?

Randy F

Randy F

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Ok time for me to create a discussion again.

So I still see people calling snakes "poor feeders" because the females do not get to breeding size within a year and a half. Now where you do get a occasional female that is breeding size at her year mark, is she mature enough to breed or are you taking her health at risk breeding her to make a buck over waiting another year? Is it kinda letting your 10 year old daughter or sister having a baby because you want to be a grandparent? The average snake takes 2-3 years to get the weight and maturity to breed. Now with that said, how does everyone feel about clutch size? There has been many discussions over the past decade that breeding a female too early will give you a small clutch and will forever remain a small clutch female? Now switching gears to males now.....they are "breeders" at 600 grams (or less) which could be 6-7 months. So you breed him to your female and do not get a viable clutch.....worthless snake right? So you breed your 6 year old neighbors boy to your 10 year old daughter and no baby......who do you tie to the tree....the boy? the girl? the irresponsible parents? That seems like a no brainer huh? Yet we label the snakes as the ones with the problem. I just had a clutch of 12 eggs that none were fertile because the male was not mature enough even though he has size......my fault, not his. Why label him as a dud, try and find a little blue foam helmet and make him lick the window in the back of the bus? (my little sister is handicapped so don't start the I'm a horrible person). Chime in.......this 600 people look but only 10 respond is kinda crap. If your not smart enough to have an opinion then maybe you fall into a certain category.....and no its not a redneck category!:D
 
Well I've heard mixed reviews on the whole size matters theory when it comes to females. Honestly I feel age as more to do with it than anything else. Case in point, I bred an '05 virgin female normal that was 1100 grams(she was a pet fed on mice is why she was old and low weight) and she produced 5 fertile eggs with zero slugs. Now, I have also power fed females and bred them on their 2nd winter and had mixed results. I find that a more mature male paired to a younger female makes a ton of difference from my experience. The older female that I mentioned was paired to a 590g late 2012 lemon blast only and produced a viable clutch. Older female, younger male...success. Each person's experiences are different though. In general I like to wait on my females until they hit their 3rd winter regardless of size unless it's a normal. All my morph girls sit it out but I'll breed my normals once they hit 1200+grams. Males I don't usually breed until they are around 600 or more just because I don't want them going off feed and losing a bunch of weight. My preference for males is strictly weight loss issues, not age.
 
I have to agree that a lot of people want to put size on their snakes, but don't consider what it will do to their health. I am coming into my fourth breeding season, and have females that I produced in my first season breeding for the first time. I got six fertile eggs from a first time breeder, and am waiting to see what her sister lays. Ball pythons is not a fast cash kind of interest, but it seems that many people believe that it is that way.
 
In the wild there is no one there to say that the age or weight of a snake is right or wrong and they seem to do just fine. All blame for "dud breeders" or "bad feeders" belongs solely on the idiot that is labeling them that way.

People need to stop looking for quick money and take better care of their animals.
 
:iagree: as do I. Too bad of the 54 people that have looked at this only 3 has an opinion. There again it's not that most are smart enough to have one, its that free costs too much for some to become members, or they are beyond our topics to register:D
 
:iagree: I never have or will "power feed" my snakes. Even though most of my adults I've had a long time are normals I refuse to rush into breeding the others. I've heard so many people having health problems related to over feeding. I even have a 2 1/2 year old female that I refused to breed this year because in my opinion was too small to breed at just over 1300g. I've seen others start their females around 800-900g and I don't think that's right, but like Anthony said, in the wild who would control it? I generally feed all my snakes once a week unless I know they can handle a little more often. Even if a female doesn't go after I breed her I'm not quick to get rid of her either, sometimes it just doesn't happen but people seem to think that if there was a lock and you don't get eggs, one of the snakes is bad. Wrong.
 
RoyalPythonPros said:
I've seen others start their females around 800-900g and I don't think that's right, but like Anthony said, in the wild who would control it?
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If you ever have put two males together you will notice one thrash around. The stronger male will overpower the weaker one. In the wild a smaller female can get away from the male because they live in the WILD not a 32-70 quart tub! The biggest basest mother f'er might take me out in a room but won't catch my white a** running away:D
 
Exactly. Now here is a point that I think people seem to forget, or chose to ignor......when we take an animal out of the wild and into our home that makes us responsible for their well being. You go to a doctor to get a fix that the body (wild) cant give, so why would you say in the wild they might get bred at 800 grams so I am doing what God intended. I am sorry if I offend anyone but that is no better than saying guns kill people and even though there are more deaths by alcohol, wine is the drink of the gods! That's a very simple minded way of being selfish and not caring about others, even when those other are our animals.
 
Randy,

As you mentioned, It's all about a buck for some people and its kinda sad how a lot of people have recently turned to reptiles(snakes in particular) to exploit this.
 
Not only that but a lot of the newer "breeders" have gotten to where they want the deals which is rock bottom and kills the ones who bought into snakes at a higher dollar amount. The worse part is that after they destroy the market with over flooding with animals and rediculas prices, they will not find the value they assumed and leave within a couple of years.
 
Randy F said:
Not only that but a lot of the newer "breeders" have gotten to where they want the deals which is rock bottom and kills the ones who bought into snakes at a higher dollar amount. The worse part is that after they destroy the market with over flooding with animals and rediculas prices, they will not find the value they assumed and leave within a couple of years.
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People like this don't have the passion or drive to maintain a long life in this business. I've said many times before, this industry is about having a passion for reptiles and not a passion for money. I don't make any profit on my animals. Granted I am a very small breeder but the excitement of seeing those eggs hatch keeps me going. I buy certain morphs to make certain things that I want in my collection. It's more about creating a beautiful color pattern or mutation than making the dollar off that animal. People on the opposite side of things don't survive very long after they realize breeding reptiles isn't quick cash. Lots of money, time, and effort involved on our part.
 
With any hobby that has a possibility to make cash we are going to have people that will try and exploit it for money making purposes. However the ball python hobby like you guys said will in time thin out those individuals. I dont plan on getting rich. I just want to enjoy the hobby. And seeing something that you put in a season of hard work pop its head out of an egg thats the Getting rich part for me
 
I can't stand people who only care about the money, I met a couple that just treated them like machines :( mine are all pets first, breeders second. I breed them just because I love the pretty colors :D and having adorable little babies to play with, doesn't matter to me if they're even a morph or not, my first clutch were all normals and still loved every one of them.
 
Araidia said:
I can't stand people who only care about the money, I met a couple that just treated them like machines :( mine are all pets first, breeders second. I breed them just because I love the pretty colors :D and having adorable little babies to play with, doesn't matter to me if they're even a morph or not, my first clutch were all normals and still loved every one of them.
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:iagree:

I have an almost yearling Mojave girl that I could probably breed this year if I wanted to (she's a very fast grower) but i'm waiting until next year because she'll be bigger, more sexually mature and have a better chance of getting through the stress of breeding and laying. With the males I wait until 600g (usually 2yrs old) at the least. I don't power feed unless the snake needs the weight ex. my normal girl went almost the entire winter off feed and was looking pole thin. She got 2 ASF rats a week until she was at a healthy looking weight again and now she's back down to one.

Eventually this may become a business for me but right now it's just a hobby and major stress reliever. My guys are all pets first and get the best care I can possibly give. I think people need to remember these snakes are still living beings that need time and patience to mature. Babies making babies has never seemed like a safe idea to me, no matter the species!
 
As stated before the only reason there is a problem with people breeding their snakes too early is because they want the quick dollar. If we stop buying from these breeders maybe they stop breeding and maybe the problem starts to correct itself? Not that there is a sure fire way to know who these breeders are. When it comes to me, I love snakes, I love the idea of breeding one with another, combining those genetics and making something different. If I make a little bit of money, great (I'd just turn around and buy another snake with it). If I lose some money, it doesn't really matter because I never expected to make more money than I spent in the first place (being a smaller breeder). Could have bred my 3 year old 1400g pastel last year, would have been my first season, but I decided to wait and breed her this year. She was 2025g when she laid and gave me 7 viable eggs. Do I believe that her clutch would have been more around 4/5 eggs had I bred her last year, you bet I do.
 
I agree with everything said above. I have talked/seen people putting very very young males with females just because they spent a pretty penny on them in the first place and trying to recoop there money asap. If you are at a point in breeding BP for a hobby or let alone a business you should never spread your money so thin that you have to threaten the animal and make it suffer just to get your thousands of dollars back. If you are worried about your money KEEP IT. Dont make the poor helpless thing suffer. I am a true believer in RESPONSIBILITY. its MY responsibility to feed the animal, MY responsibility to clean it, MY responsibility to take care of it if its sick and MY responsibility to know when it is ready to breed. This goes back to Randys first statement about kids. If you treat your kids like he mentioned guess what..... someone will take them from you! Most people dont realize the tasks that come with a breeding operations ( hobby or business) if these people are worried about money and breeding young they need to clock in and out everytime they do something with there reptile room ( ie cleaning cages, feeding, POSTING on here) and add there time up and they will see what its really worth. Your time is worth something and if you are worried about losing money this year because it cant breed then you need to put an hourly wage on your time and see how much you lose there. I know i spend hours and hours in my room bc I want to I enjoy it and you cant put a price on it bc I am not worried about it. Its my hobby I love it. If I can make money to keep my hobby going great. I know my reptiles arent going to be putting an substantial amount of money in the bank for me. I ACCEPT that fact and I am ok with it.

I also want to touch on something else that was said about wild vs captive kept animals. The snakes know when they are ready to breed and know when to search for a mate in the wild but guess what who plays "GOD" ( please dont take offense to that easiest way I was able to put it) in a reptile breeding arena....... WE DO. We always dont know when the right time is for males and females to breed. I dont walk into one of my up and coming males and he knocks on his bin with his tail and is like so Iver been thinking it over and its time for me to get in there with the girls. Plain and simple that doesnt happen. I like to wait. When I have a female that grows fast young I dont think yes shes ready, I think wow cant believe shes that big already and I wait until the next year. Its just like when you were in 5th grade and you had the guys that were approaching 5 ft already, does that mean they are ready? No we were all the same some just grew faster then others.

And to speak for the snakes in the wild that can choose to leave or "run" but cant when they are in a bin. You bet when you are contained you will get beat up but when you have an open area to roam guess what I dont have to be fast or big I just have to out run you..

Great Topic to post on!
 
And to speak for the snakes in the wild that can choose to leave or "run" but cant when they are in a bin. You bet when you are contained you will get beat up but when you have an open area to roam guess what I dont have to be fast or big I just have to out run you..
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Just wanted to touch on this real fast. But no one here has even mentioned the fact that even in captivity if the female doesn't want to breed, she doesn't. I have several females that should have been breeding this past season but no locks were made that I saw. Bottom line is that if a female isn't ready to breed, no male will make her breed. I've witnessed what happens when my females aren't interested. They straight up dominate the males or curl up so they can't lock.
 
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