is this a desparate business in need of funds?

[Griz]

Bob,its Interesting That You Would Accuse Me Of Price Gouging,i Set My Prices At A Little Below What I Think The Current Market Is.and It Is Working Out Real Well That Way.i Do Produce Some Never Before Seen Bp Morphs.pricing Is Quite High On Those,but They Always Sell.must Be Doing Something Right.and Thank You For Allowing Me To Sell At Whatever Prices I Desire.

I am glad it's working out for you, honestly I am. However, I have to doubt some of what I have read given your thoughts on where the Sunglow market was just a few months ago.

And, keep doing what you are doing Ed as it makes my sales more successful and I could not be happier about that. You the man!

Griz

 

[reptilebreeder]

Ah, but the problem lies in that both of you stated what you stated as FACT, not opinion. She says the big breeders are threatening MKR (and therefore they are evil and she will send all of her referrals to MKR), you say they don't care. Get the difference? Personally, my OPINION is that the majority lie somewhere in between. But then, that's just my opinion. .

I stated I know for a FACT that I know of SOME big breeders who don't care...THAT IS A FACT. There are allegedly some breeders who are threatening, that may be fact, I don't know I didn't state it, but I do believe it.
To me, it (this thread and related feelings) looks like people are mad because maybe they paid more for animals than they were worth, and now don't "approve" of what somone else is selling them for. Even at the reduced rate, there is still money to be had for everybody, that's why it seems to look like greed, or maybe just wishful thinking. And yes that is just my opinion.

As for MKR getting kicked off KS, if it was because of their pricing, that is the absolutly lowest BS thing ever, even lower than people thinking they (MKR) lowballed the market, and if that's the case I hope somebody sues and most importantly wins and puts KS out of business. If it was for something legit, that's another story.

 

[reptilebreeder]

.AN YET THE MARKET STILL CORRECTS ITSELF.CURRENT PRICING ON MOJAVES IS ABOUT $1000.00-$2000.00 PRETTY MUCH RIGHT WHERE IT SHOULD BE.:

Which is what many people said and or thought, which makes this thread look all the more like nothing but a bunch of whiners .

 

[reptilebreeder]

.THE LITTLE PEOPLE THAT WERE PRO MKR BECAUSE OF THE ROCK BOTTOM PRICES,DO NOT HAVE THE EXPENSIVE MORPHS STILL ,AND MAYBE NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO BUY THEM:

Get over yourself. It's not only the "little" people you condesending pompous who didn't have a problem with MKR running their own business, they way they see fit to run it. Between this post and the ones where you're complaining, and threatening (or no wait, passing on someone else's threats) talk about unethical or poor business image.

 

[Bill & Amy]

As for MKR getting kicked off KS, if it was because of their pricing, that is the absolutly lowest BS thing ever, even lower than people thinking they (MKR) lowballed the market, and if that's the case I hope somebody sues and most importantly wins and puts KS out of business. If it was for something legit, that's another story.

I highly doubt them getting kicked off KS had anything to do with their prices. From what I have read on other forums this goes way beyond just selling cheap snakes. There is a war brewing between breeders and this was just the first "lash out" between them.

 

[Ed Clark]

jOHN,LET ME ASK YOU THIS.HOW MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS DO YOU HAVE INVESTED IN THE BALL MORPHS?YOU DONT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE BIGGER BREEDERS OUT HERE ARE SAYING ABOUT MKR,THEY ARE LIVID AND VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS TURN OF EVENTS.ITS NOT JUST THE LOW PRICES,BECAUSE ANYONE WITH A HEAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS WOULD KNOW THAT WHEN THEY SOLD THEIRS THAT THINGS WOULD CHANGE AGAIN.THEIR INTENT WAS TO PERMANENTLY RUIN OR DESTROY A SPECIFIC MARKET.JOHN YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUP TALKING ABOUT HERE,PLEASE GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU START CALLING NAMES.

 

[reptilebreeder]

jOHN,LET ME ASK YOU THIS.HOW MANY TENS OF THOUSANDS DO YOU HAVE INVESTED IN THE BALL MORPHS?YOU DONT HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THE BIGGER BREEDERS OUT HERE ARE SAYING ABOUT MKR,THEY ARE LIVID AND VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS TURN OF EVENTS.ITS NOT JUST THE LOW PRICES,BECAUSE ANYONE WITH A HEAD ON THEIR SHOULDERS WOULD KNOW THAT WHEN THEY SOLD THEIRS THAT THINGS WOULD CHANGE AGAIN.THEIR INTENT WAS TO PERMANENTLY RUIN OR DESTROY A SPECIFIC MARKET.JOHN YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUP TALKING ABOUT HERE,PLEASE GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU START CALLING NAMES.

It's okay for you to be demeaning and pompous ie the way you write your posts, and the context of "little people", in a public forum, but not for me to call you on it. I don't think so. Once again since it doesn't seem to kick in....I don't have tens of thousands(in BP's anyway), because I think they are overpriced and it's a "whim" market. There are big breeders and little breeders that are upset, and there are ones that aren't, but I say again their tactic [MKR] was but a blip, as you even verify with your own post that the prices are back up and there was no effect, what will be remembered is your idiotic posts and bullying, obnoxious garbage, including e-mails to respected members here, that shine through. Posting in all CAPS, doesn't help your image either, especially when the concept of the space bar seems to elude you.

 

[Ed Clark]

John,that little people remark was for lack of a better term.I did not mean to come off so condesending,and yes you have every right to call me on that.Little was removed from my post,as it should be.WHIM MARKET,I dont think so.This has been goining on since the early 90's.If im hearing this correctly from you ,respected members of fauna can do as they please.dont think so.The ball python market is very strong and growing.

 

[SPJ]

Their tactic was not a blip. This was calculated. There is a battle brewing between Ralph Davis, Bob Clark, and Mike Wilbanks. MKR made the first move to disrupt the market. Now RDR has said he will make what MKR did look nothing. What is he planning on doing?
The larger breeders will weather this fine. It's the smaller ones who are going to be devastated.
This is manipulation of the market by large scale breeders with no regards whatsoever for their past customers, small breeders, or anyone else for that matter.
It all comes down to the dollar. They are going to try and hurt each other in the wallet and who cares if they devastate the "little guys" in the process.
Stop attacking the people who have a different view then yourself.
You really think they care that the animal they sold you 6 months ago is now worth 90% less on the market because they are playing games?
People save and save to buy an animal and when they finally get it, it's no longer worth what they paid.

 

[Goanna]

I only read the first page of this thread, so I dont know exactly what else was said. I am just going to post my opinion here.

I am on the fence on this. Mostly, since I just started an albino ball python project I would like to see some of the prices stay higher, as being able to make a little cash to support my hobby would be very nice.

At the same time, another part of me thinks that the albino ball python would be an awesome "Pet" snake as well if the price were lower, but after 10 years the price is still well over $1000 making it way out of reach for many hobbyist's who either a) cant afford it or b) will get ripped a new one by a wife/fiance/parent/etc for spending so much money on a snake.

The other thing that gets me is that all these ball python morphs are breeder to breeder transactions. Eventually it's going to come to a standstill. People need to be able to buy animals as pets also in order to keep moving them, but not at the prices most morphs are going for.

All in all I probably wouldnt be the one to undercut the market and take on the angry masses, but I would at least offer my friends a very discounted price if they wanted one as a pet.

 

[Griz]

A couple quick points:

1) Once again Ed you show you are an . How in the world do you know that John has not spoken to other "big" breeders? You took a very condescending tone with him just like you have so many others. I have been in this industry far to long and know too many of the larger breeders to not see through your crap. Funny though, how I never heard of your name prior to your original offensive email to me. Stop trying to make yourself appear to be "one of the big guys." You only making yourself out to be an .

2) Secondly, for the rest of you guys. You have to not only see opportunities when they appear in front of you but you have to seize them! What is going on with MKR etc is giving you some great opportunities! I am strictly a Boa guy but rest assured, if things play out the way some are expecting, I will be very rapidly obtaining BP's.

Again, I understand your frustrations but with every flip of the coin there are opportunities and right now I smell a big one. This could all end up being several guys getting their feathers ruffled and posing to intimidate the other guy. But, they are also creating an opportunity that you would be smart to capitalize on. Keep your eyes open and your wallets close.

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

bob,once again your crap is getting old.my responce to john was talking about the big breeders on the east coast,which i have spoken to about this.i have never eluded to the fact to being a big breeder.i am a small hobbiest breeder but I do produce quite a few high end snakes and have been doing this since the mid 80's ,bob it seems to me that you have a wild hair up your ass about a harsh e mail that i sent you.GET OVER IT

 

[Griz]

bob,once again your crap is getting old.my responce to john was talking about the big breeders on the east coast,which i have spoken to about this.i have never eluded to the fact to being a big breeder.i am a small hobbist breeder but do produce quite a bit of high end snakes and have been doing this since the mid 80's ,bob it seems to me that you have a wild hair up your ass about a harsh e mail that i sent you.GET OVER IT

Ed, the problem that I, as well as several others via the Karma they have issued, clearly see how transparent you are. You have done your best to distort reality by phrasing your replies in such a way as to try and cast doubt on others AND to somehow lump yourself in with other "big breeders." All of which is again, very transparent.

I will not "GET OVER IT" when you continue to behave in such a way that is damaging to other hobbiest. I will not walk way simply to let you off the hook. You've done a fine job of showing who you are in this very thread and I encourage you to continue your replies. It's very enlightening to say the least.

Griz

PS Learn how to use the flipping spell check. Your writing is atrocious...

 

[Cat_72]

Their tactic was not a blip. This was calculated. There is a battle brewing between Ralph Davis, Bob Clark, and Mike Wilbanks. MKR made the first move to disrupt the market. Now RDR has said he will make what MKR did look nothing. What is he planning on doing?
The larger breeders will weather this fine. It's the smaller ones who are going to be devastated.
This is manipulation of the market by large scale breeders with no regards whatsoever for their past customers, small breeders, or anyone else for that matter.
It all comes down to the dollar. They are going to try and hurt each other in the wallet and who cares if they devastate the "little guys" in the process.
Stop attacking the people who have a different view then yourself.
You really think they care that the animal they sold you 6 months ago is now worth 90% less on the market because they are playing games?
People save and save to buy an animal and when they finally get it, it's no longer worth what they paid.

THAT is what this whole thread is (or should be) about. Steve has summed it up perfectly.

 

[Ed Clark]

bob,once again you attack me for no apparent reason and try to make this thread about you.bill hicok told you in post #85 that this thread was not about you,and you still persist.i asked a question of john keller,why would you take it upon yourself to answer for him?
you say that you only have heard about me for a couple of months,boy i really have come a long way in a couple of months.
from what i see your only claim to fame has been 1 litter of boas that you had trouble almost giving them away.
now i read that you are giving all the ball python breeders investment advice.Bob,Bob,Bob

 

[Casey Hulse]

While opinions may differ, the outcome of MKRs mojave "dump" should be apparent very soon. (maybe I'll buy a pinstripe!)
Perhaps if Griz had a minimum wage job, and scraped to save for his sunglow project he would understand what people are upset about. Must be nice to breed $5000 snakes as a hobby.
On a similar note, Someone from Canada was offering a "presale" of albino granite burms 2 yrs ago on KS for $500 ea. 1/2 of the going rate of $1000 ea. (He set the price in 2004). I sent him a $250 deposit for a pr. HE NEVER PRODUCED ANY! but he sent me my money back, and informed me he sold his adults. Now he is "into" balls. I hope MKR does not work with "het red axanthics"......

 

[Ed Clark]

Casey,the ball python market is very tought right now,but it is going to offer some opportunities to purchase some snakes that we only dreamed about 2 years ago.let the big guys fight it out.us little breeders will benefit from their greed.

 

[Casey Hulse]

little breeders will benefit from their greed.

Ed, This should probably be sent private mess. but if the "big guys fight" there will be a downward trend....The market is very similar to a pyramid after all. once the "masses" become uninterested in "ball morphs" There will be little movement. The big breeders are needed to add excitement and vigor to the market.IMHO (and it is only an opinion). All the poss. combinations are what motivate me to buy homozygous animals.
I will note that I have had little interest in my het albino balls, poss due to TSE. but maybe not.


Signature... Apples>oranges Get it?

 

[Griz]

bob,once again you attack me for no apparent reason and try to make this thread about you.bill hicok told you in post #85 that this thread was not about you,and you still persist.

Ed, this thread IS about me. It's about every person out there trying to make money off of this hobby. It's about all of the people out there who you have emailed rude comments to regarding prices. YOU, Ed, made this about me. YOU, Ed, made this about everyone. You're not getting off that easy.

i asked a question of john keller,why would you take it upon yourself to answer for him?

John does not need me to answer for him, he did just fine putting you in your place. However, you once again had the audacity to speak about that which you nothing of, so I too, had to call you out on it. Funny how you changed your story from John not talking to any "big breeders" to John not talking to any "big east coast breeders." Get called out = change your story.

you say that you only have heard about me for a couple of months,boy i really have come a long way in a couple of months.

Don't flatter yourself Ed as you are so prone to do. Anytime someone sends me emails like what you did, I tend to keep a watchful eye out on that person.

from what i see your only claim to fame has been 1 litter of boas that you had trouble almost giving them away.

Once again Ed, everyone here see's how you are prone to manipulate the truth. Tell me Ed, what is your claim to fame since you want to throw that out there? Keep in mind Ed, that pretty soon I would reckon you might have a hard time giving your animals away if you keep sending out emails like you did me and probably many others. Word gets out very quickly. I am making sure of that.

now i read that you are giving all the ball python breeders investment advice.Bob,Bob,Bob

Ed, if I had not already given out too much Karma I would have given you some positive one's for that. You truly did make me laugh out loud. Why? Let's take a quick look at a previous quote of mine......

2) Secondly, for the rest of you guys. You have to not only see opportunities when they appear in front of you but you have to seize them! What is going on with MKR etc is giving you some great opportunities! I am strictly a Boa guy but rest assured, if things play out the way some are expecting, I will be very rapidly obtaining BP's.

Again, I understand your frustrations but with every flip of the coin there are opportunities and right now I smell a big one. This could all end up being several guys getting their feathers ruffled and posing to intimidate the other guy. But, they are also creating an opportunity that you would be smart to capitalize on. Keep your eyes open and your wallets close.

Now, let's look at your one of your very last posts here and see what it says......

Casey,the ball python market is very tought right now,but it is going to offer some opportunities to purchase some snakes that we only dreamed about 2 years ago.let the big guys fight it out.us little breeders will benefit from their greed.

Sounds like to me that you like to take credit for other people's idea's only to call the originator of those idea's a fool for doing so. Way to go Ed, logic really does escape you, doesn't it?

Griz

 

[Griz]

While opinions may differ, the outcome of MKRs mojave "dump" should be apparent very soon. (maybe I'll buy a pinstripe!)
Perhaps if Griz had a minimum wage job, and scraped to save for his sunglow project he would understand what people are upset about. Must be nice to breed $5000 snakes as a hobby.

Casey, don't go fooling yourself into believing that you have to work harder for your money then I do. We might have different economies of scale here but I work just as hard for my money as anyone else does. I might have the luxury of working with $5000+ animals but keep in mind that when dealing with those prices that when the market fluctuates, I get hit a lot harder then those dealing with less expensive animals. That's the nice thing about dealing with less expensive animals. Their prices remain much more steady and thereby your investment is better protected.

However, I would have to argue that if someone is only earning minimum wage that they really need to think twice before getting into this hobby as a way to make money. There are MUCH more lucrative ways to spend your money such as 401K, 3b, Roth etc. I don't have any issue with minimum wage earners keeping reptiles as a hobby but when they decide to do it as an investment then they are really jeopardizing their earning potential.

Griz