is this a desparate business in need of funds?

[Wilomn]

You know what really amazes me, the thing that has me, ME of all people, shaking his head?

The simple fact that ANY of you, in general you not anyone in particular at this moment, think you have ANY say in what any other breeder does with his stock.

It seems that a bunch of folks are trying to keep prices high on ball morphs. Cool. You're breeding them and you want to get the maximum profit you can for as long as you can. I would even go so far as to say collusion is involved with "the brotherhood" and keeping those prices up. Again, cool, if that's what you want to do and you can, if you're ok with it, more power to you.

However, no one has ANY right to say someone else is wrong or is DOING BUSINESS INCORRECTLY because he chooses to lowball the market.

It's friggin business. Drive your competitors out, make them hurt, make them mad, make them follow you, make them talk about you and, here's the key, as long as you have good stock, YOU WILL SELL THEM.

Has ANYONE got a complaint about MKR's snakes? I have yet to hear of a single complaint.

This is, unless there was a major change while I slept, America. I'm pretty sure that means something, something pretty important, like so long as you break no laws, make as much money as you want.

Have any laws been broken? I think not. Have some feeling been hurt? Yup, but even more importantly, some pocket books have been hurt and THAT'S the bottom line.

Well guess what guys, shit happens and that's the price you pay when you take chances on a fluctuating non-standardized price-fixed market. I know the non-price fixing is sort of new, or certainly seems to be, and therefore painful but, anyone that did not see this coming and does not see its re-occurance as a surety, needs to pull their head out of what ever warm dark place they've had it and take a look around.

I'm wondering what he'll cut loose with before the Anaheim show.

I'd pay 800.00 for a pied.

 

[Griz]

Wes, I can't add anymore other than a profound.......AMEN!

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

Bob,it never ceases to amaze me that you are attacking everyone that is contributing to this thread in a positive manner,that has an opposing view of yours.there are people with different views and opionions.have a little respect here.you are painting your self in a very bad light by coming here trying to bully and push others around.please show a little maturity and intelligence.it is nice to know that you are keeping a watchful eye on me.i think they call that stalking.
as far as me taking credit for your original ideas,you are really full of yourself.anyone in there right mind could predict that with these big guys fighting with one another,and have threatend that they will ruin one anothers ball python projects by selling cheap.That will bring down some of the high prices,the only reason for that is greed and jealously nothing more. I cant believe that you said low income people should not buy ball python morphs. WOW !

 

[Griz]

Bob,it never ceases to amaze me that you are attacking everyone that is contributing to this thread in a positive manner,that has an opposing view of yours.there are people with different views and opionions.have a little respect here.you are painting your self in a very bad light by coming here trying to bully and push others around.please show a little maturity and intelligence.it is nice to know that you are keeping a watchful eye on me.i think they call that stalking.
as far as me taking credit for your original ideas,you are really full of yourself.anyone in there right mind could predict that with these big guys fighting with one another,and have threatend that they will ruin one anothers ball python projects by selling cheap.That will bring down some of the high prices,the only reason for that is greed and jealously nothing more. I cant believe that you said low income people should not buy ball python morphs. WOW !

Ed, I have been trying to figure out your thought process. Either you truly do have a strong aversion to the truth or your reading comprehension is that of elementary school. I don't mean for that comment to be insulting rather it's an observation.

Case in point, you mentioned above that I have attacked everyone in this thread with a differing view. If you do not have an aversion to the truth AND you actually don't have a reading comprehension issue, then please show me the post where I stated ANYTHING derogatory about anyone other than you. If you are referring to my post in response to Casey then please, by all means, point it out. I have a great deal of respect for Casey. He's definitely one of the good guys in this industry and I respect the hard work he's put into this.

The fact remains Ed, is that you have lied several times in this thread alone and I would highly encourage you to either 1) stop or 2) prove me wrong. They say that ignorance is blinding. That you cannot see what reality truly is. If, in fact you truly saw the opportunity that the "big breeder fight" potentially could be creating, then why did you come here whining about it? Why not sit back and capitalize on the situation so that you could further bolster your position and go from "thinking you are a big breeder" to actually being one? You didn't, hence the reason for utilizing, some would call it plagiarizing, my thoughts. How transparent.

One last point Ed, with regards to your last comment about me somewhere (please point out where) stating that low income earners should not have BP's. I never stated that. In fact, I clearly stated that if they wanted them for pets then have at it. But, what I CLEARLY (at least to the majority of those with reading comprehension) stated was that low income earners should NOT be involved in BP's as an investment. The market is, as Wes put it, a "fluctuating non-standardized price-fixed market", and therefore requires a greater deal of risk in order to be successful. For a low income earner to put his financial future in the hands of such a market is horrible advice for anyone to give. Doubt me, Ed? Call any reputable financial adviser and ask him. "Gee, Mr Schwab, if you could put your money into a 403B or the BP market, which one would you choose."

In fact, I would NEVER, let me repeat that, NEVER have invested the money that I did into this hobby had my other finances not been in order. It's nothing short of foolish and poor financial management. I know we all love the thought of being in first position when that new morph hits, but reality tells you that your better off choosing your daily picks.

Griz

 

[reptilebreeder]

Bob,it never ceases to amaze me that you are attacking everyone that is contributing to this thread in a positive manner,that has an opposing view of yours.there are people with different views and opionions.have a little respect here.you are painting your self in a very bad light by coming here trying to bully and push others around.please show a little maturity and intelligence !

Whoooooops, at first I thought another poster was addressing Ed. The broken space bar gave it away , gotta give you credit for fixing that caps lock button though easier to read. Anyway, pot, kettle, black (or stainless, copper, whatever).
Seriously, I'm not trying to "attack" anyone (nor do I think Bob is), simply because we have differing opinions on how people should run their own business. Maybe not "should", but how they run their own business even if it's in spite of themselves. Steve, Casey, and others are stating their opinions without being obnoxious and big bullies, you can't seem to though, which is why you need to read your own ironic post some more, and maybe you will see that you were talking to yourself when you wrote it.

 

[Ed Clark]

The Real Reason.

I would like to discuss the real reason of this thread. The $800.00 pricing on the mojave balls was the reason to start this thread. Not a real big deal in the fact that they were priced way low. Its why they did that. I had been hearing about this feud that has been brewing for awhile between the biggest of the breeders, About 6 of them. They all have plans of putting one another out of business. It is my belief that the low priced mojaves were aimed at one particular person as to hurt his business. Everyone was passionate about this subject, some were for the low prices and some were against them. I think that we all agree that in America we have the freedom to sell our stuff at whatever prices that we want to. The real issue was not the low prices and alot of you seen that. And the details unfolded as this thread raged on. We all now know a little more about the greed and jealousy that these big breeders harbor for one another, And what they will do to get at one another. I think that it is very clear that us little guys are just pawns in a larger game. Please continue to add any additional Information that you would like to, It surely will benefit us all.

 

[Griz]

Ed, all differences aside, let me interject a few points:

Who will end up receiving the worst of this situation? God only knows as it has yet to play out. However, as Wes alluded too in addition to myself, people have to start living in the reality that this is a very competitive business. While I might develop a friendship with Breeder A and him me, the fact of the matter remains that when he makes a sale to John Doe that he is affecting, negatively that is, my business.

Do you, or anyone for that matter, truly believe that the executives at Ford share trade secrets with GM? The name of this game is to drive your competition out. To do whatever it takes to ensure your success and the demise of your competition. While you and I may never resort to such, it's simply due to the fact that we are but small players in this game. While you and I may be 6 figures invested into this game, it still pales in comparison to the big guys. If I had wrapped up what they do, then you had better believe I would do my best to drive out any "real" competitors from the marketplace. It's called survival of the fittest and it's how it's played.

In my consulting business, I do everything in my power to highlight my competitors weaknesses while showcasing my strengths. The sole reason is to take their clientele and add them to mine. While I do not have to resort to those tactics right now in this hobby of mine, you had better believe I would if I had more invested. Competition is a good thing but only to a certain extent.

While it would be nice if everyone could sit around and shoot the crap, just like you and I probably do at shows etc, that is simply not reality when you go big time. You remain nice to your clients but you do your best to drive the final nails in your opponents coffins every chance you get. It's how it has to be. After all, if my competitors are ticked off at me then it only shows me that I am doing something right.

Griz

 

[Ed Clark]

Bob, Point taken. I do see your point of view, even thought we don't agree on everything. I see things a little differently now.

John, Thanks for the tip.

 

[SoulSmilen]

cathy,thanks for being one of the few that understood the meaning of that post about the threats.i recieved hate mail about it and i also lost someone special over it.just wanted to say that i was not making any threats against mkr and if it appeared that i did,im sorry.

secret newsletter has been sent.

cant figure out how to fit you into the brotherhood though.

Clarifying... I didn't think you made the threats personally, either. It was clear that you were relaying only what you were privy to or heard in one form or another.

No harm, no foul; damn that messenger position, eh? Intentional or not, it catches us in its grips, many times.

 

[SoulSmilen]

First of all.....I have these animals because I LIKE them. It has NOTHING to do with me being greedy, TYVM.

You have them because you like them; that's great, I do too. But you breed them because you want to make money at it, even if it is just the icing on the cake. I wasn't directly referring to you as greedy, more to the mentality that "I need to make (insert exorbitant number here)x my investment..." which refers to those selling at the inflated prices for so long; namely, the big breeders who have been at it for years.

And I'm not sure what the sentence, "Decent means profit in a business" actually means....?

Quoted from your post previously:

Then there's those like myself, who scrimped and saved to buy a snake that they truly found as awesome, and really hoped to be able to get a decent return from the investment, besides having that animal to enjoy for themselves. MKR crapped on them as well.

Easy, it was a reply to your use of the word 'decent'.. you commented on hoping to get a decent return from the investment. A 'decent' return from the investment means any profit in the first years of a business. If you actually meant more than decent, or over a longer period of time, well either of those is a completely different reference. There was no hidden meaning in it.

And you still didn't answer my question, you siad that you never referred anyone to MKR in the past, but you will now. Why? They have done nothing different than they have in the past, besides crashing the Mohave market. What have they done to EARN that referral from you?

They've been treated and reacted to with jealousy; business is business, and healthy pricing wars are fine, but to resort to vengefulness is too far. My choice to endorce them over others is just that, a choice. They have quality snakes and cater to both those who can and those who can't afford the higher priced snakes of equal quality. You will probably ask 'but why now?' See previous statement: "They've been treated and reacted to with jealousy; business is business, and healthy pricing wars are fine, but to resort to vengefulness is too far."

You voiced a choice to go elsewhere for your business, and I have the right to voice my choice, too; it's not a big deal. I'm not questioning your opinion and don't really know why you chose to question mine so directly while picking apart so many of my words. You defended your right to be upset (along with others that bought at a higher price), but I never said you didn't have that right. It's all about perspective; we're adults here, aren't we?

I'm also curious...which "big breeders" that you used to refer people to actually made threats?

I didn't make the comment about others threatening them, Ed Clark did; and his mention of it here is/was not the only mention of it.

And where do you get the idea that MKR breeds on a "small scale"???? Do you have any idea how many animals they have/produce?

Re-read the sentence...

MKR and others like them breeding on a smaller scale

... others like them (that are) breeding on a smaller scale
I didn't say MKR was small; I used them as a scale clarifier and then mentioned other breeders with a clear definition of scale.. smaller.

 

[Griz]

but I never said you didn't have that right. It's all about perspective; we're adults here, aren't we?

Denise, while you and I are in agreement, I don't believe the above quote is quite accurate. It really boils down to some people being "business minded" while others are not. Those that are offended by (and not necessarily just MKR but any breeders pricing) simply are not business minded. They are emotional minded and have not taken the time to write out a true business plan with short and long-term goals. Those that did take the time will easily ride this hiccup out.

When I decided to get back into this I could see that the BP world was going through some turmoil and that a price correction would have to happen soon. I chose to go the boa route exclusively. Now that BP's have slowed down it's time to capitalize. Plain and simple. If your daily activities/sales are based upon that specific days market then you are surely going to be in a world of hurt at the drop of a pin.

Griz

 

[Junkyard]

I read most of this and I get the gist of most complaints on all sides here. My few thoughts are based on what I saw at the Daytona show.

Prices were relatively high, not saying that is a bad thing, but at shows, vendors do drop the prices to sell what they have at their table. Some people completely sold out with current market prices, not show prices. For example, Kenyan sand boas were selling for $45+, anery sand boas were $55+, maybe they were less, but at the tables I saw those were the going prices for both days of the show. Last year I saw these snakes each for $10 less, maybe prices are higher in Florida compared to California

Ball pythons held their prices well, I know some people have second day price drops and end of show deals, I even got a dropped price late Sunday as I returned to buy a uromastyx. I did not, however, see the market crushed by what MKR did, I heard there was a change in the amount of Hets sold (compared to times prior) due to what TSE did the the het market, it is unfortunate that Chris caused some problems.

All in all, there is not a lot of damage done at this point, some hurt egos, and others wanting to hit back either physically or commercially and try to drop the market themselves. Until others follow suit, everyone at this point is still in good standings with prices as they were a month ago.

The ball python market is tricky enough as it is, many people have gone out and purchased 10 plus $50 normal females to breed with their $2,500 Pastel male. It was just last February of 2005 that pastel males were sold for $1,700 and that was a drop in price. Now look at the price $300! If I were to have purchased then I would be a bit peeved that the price is so low now, but it will always be that way. As long as people continue to buy and purchase animals for breeding, prices will drop.

MKR did what they did for money, no doubt about it, if RDR does just to get back at MKR, I would not be surprised. To them it is all about the money, to me, it is all about the fun of having them. This is one reason why I am not too into breeding ball pythons. Sure I like them. To those who have small investments and a job to support them and their family should not worry, it is those that rely on this market that can be hurt here. The small time breeders have a chance for something nice and they will take it. To them it is a hobby. When the price falls and small time breeders sell for the same, MKR and RDR will only be able to point fingers at each other because of their doing.

I would rather do business with my friends anyway, those that worked hard to be able to afford these animals and breed them. Not these pompous arrogant people who think they are stars because they were able to drop $100,000 given to them through an inheritance to get the first morph here.

 

[coyote]

I wonder why ppl dont mind their own business. IF joe smoe wants to sell his snakes for X amt of $$$ and it happens to be way below "market value" and you don't agree with it, why gripe about it?

These are his snakes. His snakes to sell for whatever he wants to sell them for. If you can easily get $1200 out of the snakes then buy them at $800 and resell them tomorrow for $1200. If theyre flying out of breeders homes for $1200 then a $400 profit per snake in a few days time would be worth the effort.

Excellent point!
Instead of griping about the inevitable, be an opportunist and take advantage of an opportunity.

 

[RB_BPz]

Im 17, WOrk My Butt off for morphs and then in 6 months the market value collapases!

Fair huh?


And Just so a Breeder could relive himself of unessacary stock...


NIce one...

 

[Cat_72]

Denise, while you and I are in agreement, I don't believe the above quote is quite accurate. It really boils down to some people being "business minded" while others are not. Those that are offended by (and not necessarily just MKR but any breeders pricing) simply are not business minded. They are emotional minded and have not taken the time to write out a true business plan with short and long-term goals. Those that did take the time will easily ride this hiccup out.

When I decided to get back into this I could see that the BP world was going through some turmoil and that a price correction would have to happen soon. I chose to go the boa route exclusively. Now that BP's have slowed down it's time to capitalize. Plain and simple. If your daily activities/sales are based upon that specific days market then you are surely going to be in a world of hurt at the drop of a pin.

Griz

Griz, I will never understand your way of thinking. Perhaps you are more "business minded" than I, but not eveything comes down to money. Yes, I have both short and long term goals, and no, this is not going to "break me" and I will indeed ride this so-called hiccup out.

However...why is it that you keep stating that it all comes down to some of us "whining" about the prices? Sure, that didn't make me happy, but I am far more upset with the ethics and morals (or lack thereof) involved than the simple dollar signs. Perhpas ethics and morals are of no concern in your business minded world, but they are very important to me, and I will not do business with someone like MKR. Will the lack of businees from me break them? Of course not. If it makes me a poor businessperson to care about the "human factor" and not just the money, then so be it.

 

[SPJ]

It all boils down to the fact that MKR purposely tried to hurt another breeder by dropping the prices so signifigantly.

Will others benefit by the price drop? Sure. But a lot who bought at much higher prices are upset about what was done. It just destroyed the value of the animal that someone may have had to save an entire year to afford.

Dumping 50 mojaves on the market in one week means there is mass production going on and MKR is only motivated by the money.

With MKR, more and more things are surfacing about them everyday.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a lesser from them for $50 just because of who they associate with.

There is more involved than price.
You could have the best animals at the lowest prices but if you associate with some of the lowest people who ever appeared in the herp market, you will not get one penny from me.

 

[Cat_72]

Amen, Steve.

 

[RB_BPz]

If it makes me a poor businessperson to care about the "human factor" and not just the money, then so be it.

Clearly Griz you must know nothing about buissness. Becuase the human Factor is what has made millionares who they are today and continues to make them.

WHy We WHine?

BEcuase we work hard to for every dollar sweat.

 

[RB_BPz]

Amen, Steve.

I second that...

 

[Griz]

Cat, not that this needs said but just in case, I like you. I always have and my comments are NOT intended to be derragotory towards you. I hope you understand that.

With that said, let me try to explain myself a bit more clearer. Here goes:

1) I understand that you and I have different ideals and thought processes. This is NOT an ethics question. Pricing animals is economic based, not ethics based.

2) This business is about one thing and that's money. If I could not make money at this then I would not be doing it, at least not to the scale that I am now. I truly, and I mean TRULY, enjoy having my boa's but I would have one not 50+ if I was not in it for the money.

3) MKR and anyone else selling animals are my competition and vice versa. I will do whatever it takes, within ethical limits, to make sure that it's my animals that are sold vs theirs. Definition of "ethical limits" is not spreading lies, not selling normals as hets etc. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PRICING.

4) My comments are not solely based upon MKR. That's an important issue to take notice of. I said it earlier and will say it now, if their intentions were solely to hurt another individual then that is wrong. But, I truly do not believe that is the root issue here. The root issue that you and a few others take issue with is the way in which they ended up pricing their animals. THAT is what I take issue with. This is not, nor will it ever be, a lovey dovey hobby. It's a business and your main goal is to outdo your competition. Period.

5) These are snakes. Plain and simple, they are snakes. These are not publically traded commodities. These are sold in the private sector and therefore have values that will change with the wind. The ONLY monetary value that these animals have is based upon personal appearance. They do not have any other value then this. They have absolutely no use, no value other than the "I want one" factor. We have to keep that in mind.

6) I have close to 25 head of registered angus. These are publically traded, they have value as breeders (as do snakes), but they also have value in the marketplace. Due to their many facets, my animals rarely experience market fluctuations. The same CANNOT be said for reptiles. They are EXTREMELY volatile and always will be. Therefore, you have no choice but to plan accordingly for this. It means you have to suck up the price flucuations and ride the market out. It means you will experience a certain loss in market value, especially since you are dealing with co-doms etc, and will simply have to produce quantity to offset your perceived losses.

It does gripe me to no end to hear people whine about spending $2000 on a SNAKE and a few months later it being worth half of that. It's like complaining that a Big Mac will make you fat. You knew it going into the situation but now you complain about it? If you want to complain about scammers, about certain associations, about selling hets when they clearly are not, then more power to you and I support you 100%. But, to complain about the manner in which people price their animals is going to fall on deaf ears.

You knew it going into this hobby (or at least you should have) and therefore you have no grounds in which to complain. Now, back to my Big Mac......

Griz