is this a desparate business in need of funds?

[markface]

bob (griz) i agree with your logic 100% .

now for my little rant , lol .

anyone who does their homework will know that the bp market is on a steady fall as far as prices go . you cant stop the rules of supply and demand . you also cant stop those who want to sell their animals at " lowball" prices . if you dont take these simple facts into consideration before you decide to try and make money on the bp market then you are shooting yourself in the foot before you begin . there will always be those who just want to make a fast buck . there will always be those who for one reason or another will want to hurt someone else in the business weather financially or physically . its a cut throat business . i dont have a problem with any of that , it happens , get over it . complaining about it will just cause undue stress and make you unhappier .

i will be breeding bp's and boas this year and am looking forward to it gleefully . when i sell the babies , if i make enough to pay for food for a few months i'll be extatic . i dont and never will look at my snakes as an "investment" , thats for the "big breeders" to worry about as far as i'm concerned . i look at my snakes as money well spent and expect them to cost me money for as long as i own them . i see to many people IMHO who are more interested in the money than they are in the snakes themselves (not pointing any fingers just stating an opinion ) . they may take very good care of their animals , but they still see them as fast money makers . as far as i'm concerned the sooner these people are run out of business the better .

i work 2 jobs to make money and pay my bills . i keep and breed snakes for the sheer enjoyment of it and because it lowers my stress levels . i have kept reptiles of one form or another for almost thirty years all total , and will probably be keeping them for another 30 years god willing . never once did i think i was going to make a profit from them unless you consider that they help me hold onto what little sanity i have left as a profit . if i started to worry about making money off my critters then it would take alot of the fun out of it for me .

so in closing of my little rant , maybe some people should take a step back and take a look at why you are keeping snakes in the first place . if you are in it to make a fast buck then maybe you should just go away . if on the other hand you are a herper because you just plain love the animals , then what difference does the market make ? as i said before i'm not pointing fingers and i'm not trying to offend anyone , i'm just tired of all the bs .

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

PS YOUR FULL NAME MUST BE ON EVERY SINGLE POST! You can also add it to your profile.

Since when do you need to post your full name on a non BOI thread? That's news to me.
________________________

Think of this...

If you purchased an MKR morph at market price, then 1 month later they slash the prices in half...What would you do? I'm not talking $1000 dropped to $500 either...We're talking a couple grand price drop...

Personally, I'd be after them guns blazing for it, that's for sure. I would demand a refund for the difference. Would they have to refund me? Nope, but it'd just be one more mark against them. I'm curious to know who that actually happened to, because I'm sure it did.
________________________

I considered buying a Pastel from them a few years ago when they first came out. I didn't like their communication skills (and it ticks me off when their are NO prices on a website), you can definitely tell they're car salesmen.
________________________

I do think their actions with this whole Mojave thing is a matter of ethics. Having a lack of respect for your fellow hobbyists shows an extreme lack of integrity.
________________________

I am also tired of seeing people say "it's just a hobby" & "they shouldn't be considered investments." Average individuals don't drop $5-10k on a "pet."

 

[Wilomn]

Since when do you need to post your full name on a non BOI thread? That's news to me.
________________________

Think of this...

If you purchased an MKR morph at market price, then 1 month later they slash the prices in half...What would you do? I'm not talking $1000 dropped to $500 either...We're talking a couple grand price drop...

Personally, I'd be after them guns blazing for it, that's for sure. I would demand a refund for the difference. Would they have to refund me? Nope, but it'd just be one more mark against them. I'm curious to know who that actually happened to, because I'm sure it did.

I considered buying a Pastel from them a few years ago when they first came out. I didn't like their communication skills (and it ticks me off when their are NO prices on a website), you can definitely tell they're car salesmen.

I do think their actions with this whole Mojave thing is a matter of ethics. Having a lack of respect for your fellow hobbyists shows an extreme lack of integrity.

I think you're confusing business ethics with personal ethics.

These guys don't want to be your friends, at least I am supposing that is not thier goal. They want your money. Period.

When we talk corns, we're just a couple of breeder/keepers talking shop. We've got day jobs and do snakes as a sideline. At least I think you do, I know I do.

MKR is a business. The more they get the better for them and the better the business becomes. From a business standpoint it's an excellent strategy. Scare the little guys into selling short and running, keep them talking about you, and sell cheap.

People will buy cheap no matter who is selling.

Watch, you'll see. Folks may be shy about owning up to it at first, but they WILL take advantage of price slashing and MKR knows it. They not only know it, they're counting on it.

It's cutthroat to the max and great business. So long as you hold the knife.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think you're confusing business ethics with personal ethics.

I don't seperate "Business" from "Personal" ethics. Ethics are ethics as far as I'm concerned. I realise not everyone thinks that way, but that is how I feel. How you behave in a business standpoint and a personal both matters to me.

When we talk corns, we're just a couple of breeder/keepers talking shop. We've got day jobs and do snakes as a sideline. At least I think you do, I know I do.

Yup, I have a day job (well, really night job). And I hate it.

I am not involved in the BP market, but what I see going on in this situation is what I'm seeing in the Cornsnake & Leopard Gecko market, which I am involved in.

Mack Snow Leopard Geckos for example dropped to 10% of their price within a year ago. My jaw absolutely dropped on that one. First chance for that community to handle a nice codom mutation, and they blew it.

As far as cornsnakes, I saw an individual put up the same mutations I had for half the price. Ticked me off big time. Though I had no worries selling out this year, I have proven myself to have good stock & wonderful customer service (not tooting my own horn here).

It's everywhere, I realise this. But dropping prices by thousands of dollars...Come on...
_____________________

You know what I really think MKR is going to do?

Ruin the market, make as much money as they possibly can and drop everything & run...

So where does that leave everyone else?

 

[markface]

quote form triplemoonexotics

"I do think their actions with this whole Mojave thing is a matter of ethics. Having a lack of respect for your fellow hobbyists shows an extreme lack of integrity.
________________________

I am also tired of seeing people say "it's just a hobby" & "they shouldn't be considered investments." Average individuals don't drop $5-10k on a "pet." "

no offense stephanie , but it seems in these 2 statements you contradict yourself . for the guys that run mkr its a business not a hobby . they are not hobbyists they are business men . a hobby is something you spend money on not make it . as a hobbyist myself(one who doesnt expect to make a profit off my critters) i have no problem with them slashing prices , it doesnt effect me . if you on the other hand are buying high dollar morphs as an investment(not saying you personally , just in general anyone ) then you are not a hobbyist , you are doing it as a business whether you admit to it or not . as someone who is trying to get into the business you better expect others in the same business to try to put you(their competition) out of business . that is how it works . to me good business ethics is being able to sell for the least amount and still make money while giving good customer service and not breaking the law . if other businesses(read as "your businesses competition") suffer because you are underselling them then you are doing a good business . if someone buys a morph with the intentions of making money and they dont consider that others want that same money then IMHO they are making a bad investment .

 

[Griz]

Stephanie, Cat, Ed, Casey and whomever else wants to talk about being unethical, we agree. I 100% agree with you that there is A LOT of unethical business going on. We are on the exact same page here!

With that being said, let me pose this scenario for you:

Stephanie, let's say you and I are at a presentation that has 100 customers in the audience. You and I are the main speakers and are sitting on a large platform in front of this audience. Being the gentleman that I am, I allow you to go first in your sales presentation. It goes something like this:

"Ladies and gentleman, let me tell you about a product that you just cannot live without! It has completely changed the way that I live! It's stupendous! It's something every one just must have!"

Of course the audience is sitting on the edge of their seats right now as they just can't wait to hear what this is!!! Anticipation fills the air......

"What I have available for you today is the revolutionary, no expense spared, SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP!"

Stephanie shows the lollipop to the audience and gasps of amazement fill the air! Nobody has EVER seen a SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP before and here is a person who has not one but multiple one's in front of them! People are already grabbing for their wallets just waiting to rush the stage to be the first in line.

"Let me tell you about this SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP" Stephanie proclaims. "I spent $10,000 on creating this. I spared no expense and put all of my blood, sweat, and tears into this creation. It has become my heart and my soul. Now, I know all of you want one, desperately want one. But, I have to maximize my gains here. After all, not just anyone should own one of these."

All of a sudden, the audience slowly sits back towards the back of their chairs as they now know that there is a catch. The audience nervously awaits....

"You see" says Stephanie. "While each of you may want one, these are really reserved for the "exclusive club". You know, the one's that have to tuck their C notes back into their wallets whenever they show someone the pictures of their kids. It's simply not an item that everyone can afford," Stephanie states.

You can now see several individuals in the audience start smiling as they know that they have plenty of C notes in their wallets and that they, finally, at last, will be part of an exclusive club.

"Now, are you ready for the price?? My SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP is only $10,000!!!! That's right folks! Only $10,000!!!! Step right up and be the first person on your block to own one," Stephanie states

Out of the group of 100, only 10 people walk forward and fill out the order form. Of course Stephanie is ecstatic over selling 10 SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP for $10,000. Heck, her original investment was only $10,000 and she just made 10 times that original investment!!! Whoo hoo! What a night!

Well, Bob, realizing that there are still 90 people in the crowd that are completely disturb, upset and incredibly disappointed that they cannot afford a SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP, decides that now is the time to speak up.

"Folks" Bob says. "These really are AMAZING lollipops and I would love to see each of you own one, someday. I don't know if today is the day or if it will take a few years but I promise one day you, too, will own one."

A few people in the audience start to see the slightest bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Is Bob going to tell us something that might make this better, they wonder?

"Let me tell you about my item. You see, I made the exact same investment as Stephanie. I spent thousands of dollars, blood, sweat and tears producing my very own SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP, too. However, I know that I will recoup my investment very quickly and after that I will be operating in the black. So, without further adieu, here is my very own SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP!!!!"

Once again, the crown just gasps at this remarkable sight!

"But, it gets even better!!! My SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP can be yours today, for only $3000!!!!!!," Bob exclaims!!!

The audience is now sitting on the edges of their chairs just beside themselves that they too, now get to be part of this exclusive "cash club" that had been formed so many years ago. They too, get to enjoy one of the most remarkable animals, eerrr SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP, just like everyone else! So, instead of receiving 10 orders at $10,000, I receive 90 orders at $3,000 a "pop".

Of course I am just beside myself as I just netted out a $260,000 profit while Stephanie only netted out $90,000. The funny part of this story is that several of the people who ordered from Stephanie cancelled their orders and called me after the sales presentation. So, I actually had an even bigger night, not to mention the repeat sales!
-----------------------------------------------------------

So, Stephanie, let me ask this question. If you and I were standing on that stage and we had the chance to ask them questions, what do you think they would say? Who would they say was being unethical? The person who was simply trying to see a strong reasonable return on their investment? Or, the person who was trying to maximize her gains so that she could continue to sell high for many years to come?

You are trying to maintain an artificially high price that is ultimately penalizing the small guy. You keep preaching "what about the guy who paid double that price just a few months back?" Well, what about him? If he's smart he knew what he was getting into. If he was smart, he would seize the opportunity to produce high numbers and sell the to the masses. If anything, this guy should be thanking you for maintaining your prices while he slashes his. Keep your numbers high!!! You are doing him a favor!

You see Steph, Cat, Casey, Ed etc, you are catering to the minority. There are very few in this population who can afford to spend $5,000 on a Sunglow. But, the majority of people can afford to spend 40% of that. Would you rather GREATLY limited your market and keep your prices artificially high or would you rather lower your price and increase your sales number? Common sense tells you that answer.

Now, back to my original comment. We are all in COMPLETE agreement about unethical practices taking place. Where we differ is the individuals that could be viewed as being unethical.

Griz

 

[Griz]

I don't seperate "Business" from "Personal" ethics. Ethics are ethics as far as I'm concerned. I realise not everyone thinks that way, but that is how I feel. How you behave in a business standpoint and a personal both matters to me.

And that is precisely why you still work for someone else. No offense intended. But, there is a HUGE difference between the two. Want to know what it is? Accountability.

Whether in Business or Personal life, you still maintain your ethics, such as no lying, stealing, etc. But, you are now being held accountable to your bottom line AND, make sure you read this part, AND it is your primary goal to succeed which often times means driving out your competition. You are ACCOUNTABLE to something much bigger than your own conscience.

Mack Snow Leopard Geckos for example dropped to 10% of their price within a year ago. My jaw absolutely dropped on that one. First chance for that community to handle a nice codom mutation, and they blew it.

How did they blow it? Do you not see how this statement can come across EXTREMELY unethical? You are upset that the market on a gecko crashed vs allowing you enough time to capitalize on the obviously inflated market. Got news for you Stephanie, if the Mack Snows dropped by 90% in one year than this tells you that they were OVERPRICED to begin with!!!! But hey, what does gouging the end consumer have to do with ethics, right?

As far as cornsnakes, I saw an individual put up the same mutations I had for half the price. Ticked me off big time. Though I had no worries selling out this year, I have proven myself to have good stock & wonderful customer service (not tooting my own horn here).

It's everywhere, I realise this. But dropping prices by thousands of dollars...Come on...

That should tell you something about your marketing plan. He ticked you off because he was able to do the same thing as you but for substantially less. Sounds like you need to make better longterm buying strategies.....

Griz

 

[Casey Hulse]

"But, it gets even better!!! My SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP can be yours today, for only $3000!!!!!!," Bob exclaims!!!

And the following day you sell your lollipop to 150 people for $750.........

 

[Griz]

And the following day you sell your lollipop to 150 people for $750.........

Fortunately, my SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP is actually a recessive gene so the price drop won't be quite that drastic. Also, fortunate for my customers, my SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP'S are also vigorous breeders so my customers can easily make a full return on their investment within the first year!

Any more points, Casey?

Griz

 

[Casey Hulse]

I think you missed my point Griz....

 

[Griz]

I think you missed my point Griz....

Evidently, I have missed all of your points as I have yet to see any. I don't mean that in an insulting way either Casey. The fact of the matter is..... you have not substantiated your argument. You are simply crying foul because you don't think it is fair to you. Why isn't it fair? Why is selling for less unethical?

Put some meat onto your posts and you might just be able to convince me of your points. But, just stating, it's the way I feel is not justification for your stance.

Griz

 

[Casey Hulse]

We vend at several shows every month, we sell all sorts of stuff, but we produce beardies, boas, retics and some bps which we could give away if we wanted to in order to force other breeders (our competition) out of the market, or at least try to. Other vendors could do the same to us.We do not do that, and neither do others. Maybe this hobby should not be about trying to stomp your competition into the dirt, rather we do it because we enjoy it. The other vendors are our friends, some of them we sold thier founding stock. I have no desire to try to "stomp" them out.
But my main point is, if you sell/represent your animals to prospective customers as a "good buy" or a "great DEAL!", then you market your animals at a far lower price a short time later, in my book that is a bad thing, if we all tried to stomp out the competition, then I would be one of the first to leave. I guess some of us do not have the killer instinct like you..Is that a flaw in your book?(nevermind, I know the answer).

 

[Griz]

We vend at several shows every month, we sell all sorts of stuff, but we produce beardies, boas, retics and some bps which we could give away if we wanted to in order to force other breeders (our competition) out of the market, or at least try to. Other vendors could do the same to us.We do not do that, and neither do others. Maybe this hobby should not be about trying to stomp your competition into the dirt, rather we do it because we enjoy it. The other vendors are our friends, some of them we sold thier founding stock. I have no desire to try to "stomp" them out.

Casey, I highlighted the key word in your above comment. If this is a hobby to you then you have no business complaining. A hobby is done because you love what it is you are doing and are simply trying to support your current collection. Having a hobby is not about maximizing profits. Business, however, is.

But my main point is, if you sell/represent your animals to prospective customers as a "good buy" or a "great DEAL!", then you market your animals at a far lower price a short time later, in my book that is a bad thing, if we all tried to stomp out the competition, then I would be one of the first to leave. I guess some of us do not have the killer instinct like you..Is that a flaw in your book?(nevermind, I know the answer).

No Casey, I think it is one reason why people like you. Having a killer instinct is neither a good nor a bad thing. However, it is the key to running a successful business. You have to be competitive in order to stay close to the top. Otherwise, like you said, you will be one of the first one's out.

Selling your animals at a good price only to reduce that price a few months later is not bad business nor is it a "bad thing." It's called life. If someone bought an animal at $3000 and assumed it would remain at that price for months to come then they are foolish. Plain and simple, foolish. It has never worked that way. If anything, the average consumer needs to be furious with individuals who try to keep the price so outrageous that 90% of the population can't afford to purchase one. That's the "bad thing" and that's the "unethical" issue that presents itself.

Instead of looking at this through the eyes of the 10% (ie those with money) why not look at it this through the eyes of the 90% (those without). If that does not open your eyes then there is a problem.

Griz

 

[Casey Hulse]

Instead of looking at this through the eyes of the 10% (ie those with money) why not look at it this through the eyes of the 90% (those without). If that does not open your eyes then there is a problem.

My eyes are open, trust me. I just do not agree with some of your analogies, not a problem to me....

 

[Griz]

My eyes are open, trust me. I just do not agree with some of your analogies, not a problem to me....

But it IS a problem for countless others who cannot afford these animals because certain people make sure of that. That's a shame Casey, a real shame......

Griz

 

[chakup]

My $0.02 after skimming this- all this does is give all those people looking for the best deal more exposure to it. Now more and more people know that MKR will give the best bottom line price=more business and more profit. All you've done is give them free advertising.

Not beeing a BP breeder but enjoying some morphs I now have their page bookmarked for the future.

 

[Griz]

My $0.02 after skimming this- all this does is give all those people looking for the best deal more exposure to it. Now more and more people know that MKR will give the best bottom line price=more business and more profit. All you've done is give them free advertising.

Not beeing a BP breeder but enjoying some morphs I now have their page bookmarked for the future.

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

no offense stephanie , but it seems in these 2 statements you contradict yourself . for the guys that run mkr its a business not a hobby.

I was about to head off to bed last night when I wrote this. I sat for 10 minutes searching for the word I was looking for and gave up and threw in hobbyists. Insert word "enthusiasts" where "hobbyists" is.

I do think their actions with this whole Mojave thing is a matter of ethics. Having a lack of respect for your fellow enthusiasts shows an extreme lack of integrity.

Or, if it pleases you, put customers in that sentence. As I'm sure they ticked off many customers that purchased the month before at a much higher price.

How did they blow it? Do you not see how this statement can come across EXTREMELY unethical? You are upset that the market on a gecko crashed vs allowing you enough time to capitalize on the obviously inflated market. Got news for you Stephanie, if the Mack Snows dropped by 90% in one year than this tells you that they were OVERPRICED to begin with!!!! But hey, what does gouging the end consumer have to do with ethics, right?

Nope, I wasn't dumb enough to drop over a grand on that morph before watching how it was handled in the market. So it didn't affect ME...Though I know many others it DID affect and know they're TICKED. I paid $200 for my first Mack Snow this year. I could have gotten him for $75 from the individual that started the crash...But I prefer to support quality breeders with the intent to better the species.

That should tell you something about your marketing plan. He ticked you off because he was able to do the same thing as you but for substantially less. Sounds like you need to make better longterm buying strategies.

What ticked me off was that he was selling them for the price of NORMALS. I don't care if he wanted to undercut me or anyone else. But selling them for the same price as a normal? Come on!

"What I have available for you today is the revolutionary, no expense spared, SUPER DUPER LAVENDER LOLLIPOP!"

OOOOOOOOOOO...I want one!

The difference in your analogy is that these haven't JUST come out. They have been out in the market for many years. AND, what Casey said.
_______________________

I don't think everyone is ever going to agree on this matter. Everyone just has their own opinions & feelings.

 

[Griz]

OOOOOOOOOOO...I want one!

The difference in your analogy is that these haven't JUST come out. They have been out in the market for many years. AND, what Casey said.
_______________________

I don't think everyone is ever going to agree on this matter. Everyone just has their own opinions & feelings.

For what it's worth Stephanie, I am not without sympathy for those that got caught up in this situation. However, one persons poor planning does not make the seller a bad guy. Maybe that is my main point.....

Griz

 

[Martino Reptiles]

My 0.02

Griz,

I for one agree with many of your responses, and applause your ability to convey a simple reality.



There seems to be three underlying categories here that are being confused and tossed around here with clear disregard for their definitions. In my opinion, persons in the reptile community fall into one of these categories;

Category #1: The Hobbyist - I define this person as someone who truly loves the animal/hobby for what it is, and has no regard for profit potential. In other words, I personally love Andean Milksnakes (note the smirk on some of you). Not for the "huge profits" these animals can yield since I doubt i'm "going to grad school" on a $45. snake, but because of what they are, an amazing animal.

Category #2: The Businessman - Someone with the clear intent to make profit. Whether or not some of these "businessmen" like the animals they work with is to be determined. In essence however, these persons have the clear goal to make money, and as much of it as they can depending on the initial investments they make.

Category #3: The Business-Hobbyist Hybrid - Someone who does indeed love the animals they are working with, and also likes the idea of making money off the animals they work with. This is probably the area where persons are confused.

Most of these posts in this forum originate from the persons who I think resemble category #3. However, there is a clear distinction in what a businessman is, and what is Business-Hobbyist is, no doubt about it. It's up to each individual to determine what "category" they fit into, and understand why they do what they do. To speak in a degrading nature about who does what with their animals shows the inability for that person to make that distinction, hence why this topic is now on page #30-something. I think some people need to take a step back and ask themselves what truly motivates them, and peruse those endeavors towards happiness, afterall this is why many of us have reptiles in the first place.

Many persons on here assume MKR fits into category #2 because of the massive Mojave sale not too long ago. The key word here is "assume" since only a presumption can be made based on their actions that the public has placed on them. If they are business related, so be it, they are entitled to be whatever they want.

I for one think the Ball Python industry is not "falling" but simply evolving. Herpetoculture has become more popular than ever with some, even make it their full time careers. You have to ask yourself, if the market was really "falling" why are there more breeders than ever making record sales on Kingsnake and other places? I for one belive the industry is getting stronger, with greater potential for the Hobbyist-Businessman to make a nice secondary income. Trends will come and go, but the snakes are still here. Here's a small timeline to demonstrate....

1980's - Colubrids were incredibly popular, boas and pythons weren't. Remember the Albino corn back in the '80's? Wow, youi couldn't touch those things!

1990's - Boas became more mainstream gaining in popularity, colubrids were still strong, and many pythons including the ball were ignored except for a few breeders who saw potential.

2000+ - Boas and Ball Pythons are strong, with many colubrids and less popular animals like Rosy Boas and others taking a break from the spotlight.

Is the snake industry dying? No! It's evolving, nothing more.

The bottom line is that YOU need to ask yourself why you are in this industry in the first place and assume the risks accordingly. By doing so, you would have already known what you were "getting into" before purchasing a high-dollar animal. You know what they say...... "if you can't take the heat, get out of the incubator."