Italian Wall Lizard care?

[Fleck]

Hello
Has anyone kept Italian Wall Lizard (Podarcis sicula campestris ) "long term" and if so how any breeding?

I was thinking of a pair for outdoor enclosure (chicken wire and wood) in Florida but could just as easily keep them inside if that would be best.

Perhaps to hot here esp Summer for outside. Either way any care info would be great.

Thanks

 

[Ameivaboy]

Hi I keep italian wall lizards here in the SF Bay Area.
I recently moved all of mine into outdoor enclosures.
I have several clutches of eggs cooking too.
They are vary hardy lizards and very fun to work with.
My concern would be it may stay too warm in florida to trigger brumation that inspires breeding. However I could be wrong about that.
As far as being too hot just make sure they can get way out of the heat. I use under ground burrows several inches deep along with pieces of wood on top of those burrows to absorb the heat so the burrows remain cool.

 

[Ameivaboy]

Also,

Males are VERY territorial, only 1 per enclosure.
Females can be territorial as well, keep an eye on them.
I keep mine in 1.2 groups however a person I know of that has kept many podarcis species (In Europe) suggests pairs are the best way to go.
They'll eat pretty much any insect they can fit in their mouths.
Also they will take fruits as well.


I dont have any good pictures of the podarcis cages to show what I was talking about in the previous post. But this enclosure (housing young jeweled lacertas)is set up similarly minus the the branches and logs that I include for the podarcis cages.

If you look at the bottom of the "steps" you can see a burrow.
The steps absorb all the heat so the burrow (which is a couple inches under ground) stays cool.
Each of my outdoor cages has a minimum of 4 undergound burrows spread through out the cage so as the sun moves around they always have options of where to hide. I dunno, hope that helps a bit.
I'm surprised more people dont keep these and other lacertids. They are awesome lol

 

[Fleck]

Great enclosure for the jeweled lacertas this was lots of help .

What winter temps do you get in SF ?

We did have a harsh winter this yr by Florida standards and even in Miami we hit night temps of 40s but usually high 50s is considered very cold night and rare .

This was a lot of help and great info.

Thanks

 

[Ameivaboy]

High 50's the wall lizards would be able to handle fine. We're having a little cold spell right now. It's supposed to be 53 tonight. The lizards (both wall and jeweleds) were all out earlier at 68 degrees.
Italian wall lizards have populations on long island where it gets much colder than it does in either of our areas. As long as they can get underground deep enough (or some other protected area) they will be ok.
Once the seasons start changing I have tarps to cover the cages during rainy weather. My cages arent water tight either so that's another plus against rain and flooding. As the temperatures start dropping I'll add a few more inches of dirt and a ton of leaves to help insulate them even more with me eventually moving the cages into a shed I have outback during the coldest part of the year.

Do you have a source to obtain wall lizards yet?
I know a couple people who have them available as well as myself.
I have a few adults I could move and should have hatchlings in a month and a half or so.
just for kicks here's my "big" male lol

Great enclosure for the jeweled lacertas this was lots of help .

What winter temps do you get in SF ?

We did have a harsh winter this yr by Florida standards and even in Miami we hit night temps of 40s but usually high 50s is considered very cold night and rare .

This was a lot of help and great info.

Thanks

 

[Fleck]

Sadly I asked a wholesale place I go to a lot to get me a pair M/F by late August and he said yes .
A friend who keeps desert iguanas outside and breeds them has large credit with him and let me use some for adult wall lizard pair .

I say sadly or would buy from you . I will PM you if guy doesn't come through but feel bad cancelling esp after he looked around to make sure he could get pair in Aug as going to build enclosure this weekend and next .
However I would imagine incredibly easy to sell because now there is a huge interest for them.

When you mention the females are territorial how much territory do they need each and are they also territorial towards males?

My plan was just 1 pair in a 6 foot by 3 foot enclosure . You find that to small?

I have a place in my yard which is half shade and half sun all yr long . The sun here is brutal but easy enough to block out with large pots with bush'es,etc. We have a lot of snakes in area so enclosure has to be rat snake but ESP racer (incredibly persistent) proof.

Great looking male . We have ocellated skinks, curly tails ,iguanas, knight anoles, assorted geckoes in area which are not native and love them. Other than ocellated skinks non were introduced by pet owners .We are a skip away from the Caribbeans and hundreds of yrs of ships bringing plants,etc bought them here.



Its amazing they established themselves in long island. You could easily write care info on them for Reptile mag .

 

[Ameivaboy]

6 x 3 is huge for a pair. Almost too big (not for the lizards but for you viewing them)
I would think if the cage is 3-4 feet tall you could *possibly* keep 2 males and several females.
My 1.2 adult groups are in 36 x 18 x 18 cages. It did take a bit of time figuring out who was compatible with who though.

In my experience some are shunned by the others being bullied by both male and female. Really weird..

Right now I have 2.3 (wc adults w/ regen tails) I can part with. I'm not sure how long they will be around though but should have hatchlings soon too. If you're unable to get what you're looking for and I dont have it when you're ready I can certainly refer you to 2 other people who could supply you.

One thing to keep in mind (and a reason I am careful who I sell them too) is their incredible ability to establish themselves in new areas. Along with The new york population there is also a population in Topeka, KS as well as small area in southern California where they have been documented. Another species the common wall lizard (Podarcis Muralis) has established itself in Ohio and upper Kentucky.
Ohio has even made it their state lizard (which in my opinion is the most retarded thing ever making an introduced species the state lizard and also protecting it from collection) Anywho for that reason cages must be VERY secure as any escapees could start even more populations.

The large pots with bushed would be great. Not only would the pots and bushes create shade but if the soil is soft enough they can burrow down in there for protection from heat/rain/cold etc.

The problems I see with such a large cage is finding any eggs, even with nest boxes the lizards could still find places (like deep down in the pots) to lay where you would never find them.
Also Catching the lizards if you'd need to separate them for any reason (health, being gravid, territorial disputes etc) They are very fast even at cooler temperatures. I'd imagine you'd have to noose them to catch them in a cage that size.

I think it's really cool that there's occellated skinks out there (but not cool that they've been introduced) I had a small breeding group of them a few years back. They were one of my favorite species I have worked with. I've even considered trying to aquire more and trying to keep them outdoors here as they do have populations that live in southern europe whose climate is almost identical to mine, though specimens offered here are collected from north africa from what I know.

 

[fishkeeper]

dont meen to hijack but Ameivaboy, what size cage would be good for indoor houseing for 1.1-2? I did not know they needed that much space, Iam thinking of getting afew and was planning on useing a spare 18"X18"X24" exo, but it sounds like thats to small, do you have any tips for brumating them indoors?

we have wall lizards here on vancouver island, Iam going over there sometime this summer and plan to try and find some, I thought they were italians but i think there the common ones, I thought about trying to keep them outside but its below freezing here a lot of the winter with lots of snow as i live quite a bit inland towards the mountains from the island so i dont think they could take the cold.

 

[Ameivaboy]

That exo terra should be fine for a pair, though they would certainly use more space if it were provided. Several years ago I had kept a pair in a 29 gallon for well over a year with no problems (and I was smart enough to cover the sides and back wall with cork tile to triple the amount of usable space they had).

Actually I do currently have 1.1 in a 18 x 18 x 36 reptibreeze cage as well.
I dont like that cage however because of the front opening door. I'm always paranoid someone is going to bolt out. But really they always dart for cover as soon as they see me as they are not accustomed to my prescence as the other ones are because the main groups are on my deck where i sit and watch them and this pair is off to the side and they only see me for feeding and cleaning.

I have never brumated anything indoors. I have heard of people brumating animals in refridgerators but I have never attempted that. If you have a basement you could probably stick them down there as it would protect them from freezes.(I would still make deep burrows for them and add lots of leaves etc to blanket them as much as possible)

Now that you mention Vancouver Island I have heard of wall lizards being out there as well. If I remember correctly it is Podarcis Muralis that occupies the island.

I would love to get my hands on some muralis! If anyone in Kentucky ever reads this thread and has access to them contact me!! lol

 

[Fleck]

6 x 3 is huge for a pair. Almost too big (not for the lizards but for you viewing them)
I would think if the cage is 3-4 feet tall you could *possibly* keep 2 males and several females.
My 1.2 adult groups are in 36 x 18 x 18 cages. It did take a bit of time figuring out who was compatible with who though.

In my experience some are shunned by the others being bullied by both male and female. Really weird..

Right now I have 2.3 (wc adults w/ regen tails) I can part with. I'm not sure how long they will be around though but should have hatchlings soon too. If you're unable to get what you're looking for and I dont have it when you're ready I can certainly refer you to 2 other people who could supply you.

One thing to keep in mind (and a reason I am careful who I sell them too) is their incredible ability to establish themselves in new areas. Along with The new york population there is also a population in Topeka, KS as well as small area in southern California where they have been documented. Another species the common wall lizard (Podarcis Muralis) has established itself in Ohio and upper Kentucky.
Ohio has even made it their state lizard (which in my opinion is the most retarded thing ever making an introduced species the state lizard and also protecting it from collection) Anywho for that reason cages must be VERY secure as any escapees could start even more populations.

The large pots with bushed would be great. Not only would the pots and bushes create shade but if the soil is soft enough they can burrow down in there for protection from heat/rain/cold etc.

The problems I see with such a large cage is finding any eggs, even with nest boxes the lizards could still find places (like deep down in the pots) to lay where you would never find them.
Also Catching the lizards if you'd need to separate them for any reason (health, being gravid, territorial disputes etc) They are very fast even at cooler temperatures. I'd imagine you'd have to noose them to catch them in a cage that size.

I think it's really cool that there's occellated skinks out there (but not cool that they've been introduced) I had a small breeding group of them a few years back. They were one of my favorite species I have worked with. I've even considered trying to aquire more and trying to keep them outdoors here as they do have populations that live in southern europe whose climate is almost identical to mine, though specimens offered here are collected from north africa from what I know.

This was very informative. Most of the non natives here such as assorted caribbean geckos,lizards,frogs ,etc have probably been here hundreds of years since shipping was bringing over cargo for hundreds of yrs to Florida .

However when you pave over a field and remove all green the natives move out and surprisingly non non natives move in .Than they are blamed for driving out the natives.
I have seen curly tails established in the middle of a cement shopping center parking center with their home base being those little tree 4 x 4 areas .

The Ocellated certainly didn't come from caribbeans but only found in certain pockets .The non native albino blue tongue skink colony is neat lol just kidding about those .

"Also Catching the lizards if you'd need to separate them for any reason (health, being gravid, territorial disputes etc) They are very fast even at cooler temperatures"

Yes thats true. I hoped that with plenty of room esp high area like shrubs in pots for them to climb the above would not be an issue?


Do yours breed all yr long ?

"Not only would the pots and bushes create shade but if the soil is soft enough they can burrow down in there for protection from heat/rain/cold etc. "

It POURS here when it rains lol. I had planned over head cover such as wooden boxes with clay tiles on them and other types cover.

 

[Fleck]

dont meen to hijack but Ameivaboy, what size cage would be good for indoor houseing for 1.1-2? I did not know they needed that much space, Iam thinking of getting afew and was planning on useing a spare 18"X18"X24" exo, but it sounds like thats to small, do you have any tips for brumating them indoors?

we have wall lizards here on vancouver island, Iam going over there sometime this summer and plan to try and find some, I thought they were italians but i think there the common ones, I thought about trying to keep them outside but its below freezing here a lot of the winter with lots of snow as i live quite a bit inland towards the mountains from the island so i dont think they could take the cold.

If you wind up thinking that as far as bottom space goes the tank is bit to cramped. They sell rubbermaid 54 gallon bins for $20 which are roughly 40 inches long and 21 inches wide at home depot and walmart.

A friend takes his fire skink pair out during rainy season and he gets great breeding (granted lots holes drilled on bottom) .
This isn't his set up but its same type bin.

 

[fishkeeper]

thanks Ameivaboy that was great, If i get them i plan on overing the sides in something as well to give them more room, do you find these guys get used to people or are they always shy?

when i found out the ones on the island were commons and not italians i was a bit disapointed as the italians seen to have much more color, is there a special reason you whant some muralis? do they have behaviors or anything that differ from the italians?

i dont have a basement so i will have to look into another way to brumate them, i will look into useing the fridge.

 

[Ameivaboy]

Do yours breed all yr long ?

They will breed when they come out of brumation.
Females can lay multiple clutches per season (most I've had is 3)

Also Catching the lizards if you'd need to separate them for any reason (health, being gravid, territorial disputes etc) They are very fast even at cooler temperatures"

Yes thats true. I hoped that with plenty of room esp high area like shrubs in pots for them to climb the above would not be an issue?

Creating visual barriers in the cage so the animals dont have to be in constant sight of each other and having many hiding spots should help minimize fighting. You'll still have a hell of a time catching one if need be.

do you find these guys get used to people or are they always shy?

The more they see you and you're not always after them the more accustomed and less shy they will be. They can be pretty bold at times. They will take food from tongs etc if they are accustomed to you but I would never underestimate them nor consider them "tame"

when i found out the ones on the island were commons and not italians i was a bit disapointed as the italians seen to have much more color, is there a special reason you whant some muralis? do they have behaviors or anything that differ from the italians?

There's no special reason behind me wanting them besides the fact I want to learn more about them. They also can have quite awesome patterns (google images)

I have never kept nor even seen a muralis in person. I'd imagine the behavior would be quite similar to Sicula. I have heard (don't remember where) That muralis is not as hardy as Sicula, but the only way I could verify that is getting a hold of some and finding out for myself.

Anywho this thread inspired me to upload some footage my lacertas outside from last week so here it is (warning it's like 5 minutes and not terribly exciting but it shows them just kind of doing their thing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFL8-Yo8PGo

and just for the hell of a it a dumb video I made of some when I had them in their indoor set up
Enjoy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFatUYalD6Q&feature=related

 

[Fleck]

Fantastic videos great set ups. Your cages have steel frames which is nice did you buy them or make them ?

 

[Ameivaboy]

Thank you.

The cages are from Alec Feldman of DIYcages.com (mine are the 36 x 18 horizontals on the website)

I have done several transactions with him including the cages and wall lizards (He has much more experience with the wall lizards than I do, he's the person I got my first pair from several years ago)

I wouldn't hesitate to buy reptiles or cages from him again. He's a good guy.

 

[Fleck]

Lol how funny. I have a friend with chamaleons look at his site couple weeks ago but he thought the cages looked weak however I am going to send him your video as if anything they look great.

In his case the cages will be in his screened patio but for me outside with racoons in area its best I make it other wise would have ordered the larger model
http://diycages.com/16101/16143.html

Looking at his site I would have never known the cages are that nice till looking at your video.His site doesn't due his cage justice .

Your cage looked huge imagine the wall lizards do not get that big? I was under the assumption that they hit 2 feet with tail.

 

[Ameivaboy]

I will probably pick up some of the larger models as my Jeweled lacertas get bigger. (or build my own)

Raccoons could rip through the mesh on those cages- you probably woulkd be better off the hard wire metal cloth.

Wall lizards get a little bit bigger than anoles.

Here's my "big" male for size reference

 

[Fleck]

Oh smaller than I thought as adults .

Thanks

 

[Fleck]

I went by the wholesale place today which has them. They had 3 males with about 8 females in a 10 gallon tank and 4 of the females were engaged in a brutal fight.

I think 1 male and 1 female might be best. I picked up all I need to build the cage will start this weekend and finish.

The males are very good looking .

 

[Fleck]

Actually they are not Wall Lizards he marked them incorrectly they are simply wild caught
Rainbow lizards which he caught here in Miami .
I have never seen them myself .The males get bigger than wall lizard males and color bit different as is head.

Either way he gets the wall lizards in next week.

I did think that $5 each was rather cheap lol but again they are wild caught from a colony in Miami.

http://www.rainforest-pets.com/images/exotic-animals/green-rainbow-lizard.jpg