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Jamaican Boas Breeding

bigjej said:
Very good points.
Click to expand...

toddnbecka said:
There's no real "natural selection" process in captive breeding, so animals that would never survive in the wild are raised and passed along. I agree that it's better to allow the young to sort themselves out than to go to extremes to keep them alive.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the support.

In certain breeding programs, I can see why a breeder might feel differently. If this were a line breeding or morph-based program for a more common species (corn snakes, for instance) I could see where working toward getting an individual through this phase and working to breed in some genetic strength later on would have its benefits.

However, this program is about sustainability of an endangered species, and thus, health and viability are by far the priorities. I might also feel differently if there were, say, only four babies total and they were all non-feeders, but since 25 out of 28 readily accepted chick thighs, the continuation of the species for the next generation seems pretty well assured, so viability becomes a factor for non-feeders.

In my experience, snakes are sometimes slow to start feeding, or picky eaters, and that has little bearing on overall health. However, any snake that is willing to starve itself to death is either being kept incorrectly (unlikely with 26 success stories of identical husbandry) or has something severely wrong with it. I have force fed or trick fed other snake babies in the past (corn snakes, for instance) and while many go on to become healthy, viable adults with good feed responses, the incidence of sudden, mysterious death was significantly higher amongst these individuals than with their easier subilings. This is not a risk that I am willing to take with Jamaicans.
 
It stands to reason that a lack of appetite is an indication of some other, less apparent issue. Given that in a typical litter there are often several stillborn it isn't realistic to expect every live baby to be equally healthy and hearty. I've kept. bred, and raised aquarium fish for most of my life. I've culled large numbers of fish fry, and have seen some brought in to pet shops by other people that should have been culled. Even among otherwise "good" stock there's a significant difference in size and growth rate, and in the wild if 2 offspring survive the species has broken even.
Obviously, captive breeding of endangered or rare snakes is a different situation, but the same principles apply. Not every individual is going to carry good genes to pass along, and the ones that don't are best left out of the gene pool in the long run.
 
It's interesting that you bring up fish. I also have a good deal of fish breeding in my experience, and from what I've seen, most (if not all) fish have a breeding strategy of producing a large number of offspring under the assumption that most of them will not survive to breed, as opposed to say, an elephant, which has one, large, developed baby that has a much greater chance at survival. Jamaican boas have a similar strategy to fish. They have the largest litter size of all of the epicrates, and as such, also tend to have the smallest babies. It would stand to reason, then, that many would not be expected to survive. I will continue to offer the non-feeders various food for as long as I can, in the hopes that they come around, but I don't think I will be going to any extremes in order to prolong their lives artificially.

In contrast, the second bahaman anole was added to the lizard-eater's cage yesterday, and this morning can not be found, unless you count the large lump in the baby snake's midsection. This is a good demonstration of the difference between a picky eater and a problem feeder. This snake is only willing to eat live anoles (so far), but is still willing to eat regularly, immediately, and of its own accord, indicating that it is healthy and viable. I will be feeding the holdback babies (except the one that ate its quail chick) in the next day or two, then will skip them on the normal Thursday feeding, and get them back on track the following week. I will update on Tuesday (or some day nearby) with the results of that feeding.
 
The remaining four holdbacks ate overnight. Everyone is back on feed (except my two non-feesers, of course) hopefully, I will find some smaller anoles at hamburg on Saturday.
 
Quick correction. Upon cleaning out cages today, I found hidden chick thighs in Escapee #1 and Escapee #4's tubs. Apparently, in my attempt to not be too invasive, I did not search thoroughly enough for these food items. E1 and E4 will be fed tomorrow with the other snakes, so hopefully they will be over their protest.
 
Update for feeding number 7.

All of the holdbacks were offered a chick thigh. Escapees 1 and 4 are back on feed, but a couple random holdbacks did not eat. However, since they just ate a few days ago, I am not overly concerned.

All of the other good eaters ate their chick thighs, and several more ate their additional pinkies as well. This brings the total of snakes who have eaten a pinky to 8. There does not appear, however, to be any continuity in pinky eating, as only one of them has eaten pinkies twice, and they were not consecutive. This could be because there is already food in the belly, and eating an additional item is more about whether or not the animal is sill hungry than whether or not the animal has a taste for it. I will attempt to feed these eight scented pinkies only next week, to see if this improves the replication.

The former non-feeder at the green anole last night with no issues. Today I am going to Hamburg in the hopes of finding some half grown anoles for the other two.
 
I was at the Hamburg show, did find 2 smaller brown anoles, figure I can use them for scenting. Nobody there selling feeder anoles though :( Passed along the peep leg tip to a vendor who had some 2 day old Solomon Island boa babies, I saw hatchling corns that were much larger than those wee critters. He said something about someone who had tried force feeding Solomon Island babies f/t rat tails, didn't seem like a good idea to me.
 
Yeah, no luck for me at hamburg either. I'm going to have to order a bunch from somewhere online. In not super confident that small Anoles will get the last two feeding, but it's pretty much the last thing to try. Hopefully I will have them in sometime this week.
 
I've lost track of the group stats now. How many total babies, how many have eaten willingly, how many difficult/picky eaters, and just 2 that won't eat at all?
 
toddnbecka said:
I've lost track of the group stats now. How many total babies, how many have eaten willingly, how many difficult/picky eaters, and just 2 that won't eat at all?
Click to expand...

Haha. I think a recap is a good idea. Thanks.

There were 28 total live births.
25 out of 28 began eating chick thighs with no prompting between the ages of 3 and 5 weeks. Occasionally, some of these skip a meal, but so far they always go back on feed at the next opportunity.
8 of these 25 have eaten a pinky mouse in conjunction with a chick thigh
1 has only eaten live anoles thus far
2 have not yet eaten

Hope that clarifies.
 
I'd say that 25 out of 28 good feeders and 1 picky little shit are good odds. There's always a runt in every litter, you may have 2 in this one, but "survival of the fittest" certainly is a factor to consider when looking at the larger picture. I can imagine how I'd feel (likely will) when my DRMB's start dropping babies, and want to see every one thrive, but life doesn't work that way.
Is there any risk of transmitting parasites to snakes through live feeder anoles? Of the 2 browns I picked up Saturday 1 was dead the next morning, so I just put the deli cup into the freezer. Both my newer pair of DRMB yearlings took live rat pinkies w/out scenting, a day apart, the female had taken a f/t quail chick a week before, but the male of that pair refused.
I expect that when they do mature and breed I'll need to start some of the babies on anoles, and have been wondering if the feeders should be treated for parasites or if f/t anoles would be an option. Seems likely to me that freezing would kill parasites?
 
Quick update. I have ordered some frozen anoles that should be arriving this week. Hopefully, the 50 that I purchased will get my three troublemakers through to eating something else.

I have also moved my feeding day to Tuesdays, largely for personal schedule reasons, and will be doing cleanings on Saturdays. I have skipped the usual Thursday meal in preparation for this adjustment, and will be feeding either Monday or Tuesday of this week. Hopefully, the added break will help encourage some of these guys to eat their pinkies.

And finally, the photos. I did some update shots on three random babies. They are getting big, beautiful, and ill-tempered. haha. I take this as a sign of strength. Even the ones that were previously more docile have started open mouth lunging at me. I could only get one of them to calm down enough to hold for the pictures. They are definitely growing well, though, as can be seen from the hatchling pictures compared to these shots. I would put them at around 20 inches long at this point, and furthermore, you can really see the development in muscle tone and head structure.
 
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