Jamie Kaps - Guarantees, Signature Releases, & The War on Terror.

[Chris@TSE]

A signature waiver will result in forfeiture of live arrival guarantee since we are unable to receive proof of signature or personal acceptance of package(s). There are no exceptions to this policy whatsoever.

This portion explains it best.... I have yet to have a single customer state they had any issue understanding this, but yes we will probably be re-wording it in future revisions "just-in-case"

thanks!

 

[Chris@TSE]

Also, I may add that for customers who DO have signature releases on file for specific reasons, we allow these folks to contact us via telephone or email within thirty minutes of arrival to confirm delivery. Most do it the moment packages arrive. We try and work with and around those who have these waivers for particular reasons.....

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Chris..Obviously I know how to read..no need for insults because I asked you a simple question. My point which you did not clearly ansewer or you did not READ in my post or state the specifics OF in your 1st post... is ....did he call you 5mins after the arrival, what kind of time frame are we talking about here, did it take him 8 hrs to notify you or 10min. I get many packages left on the doorstep, none have ever came in DOA, I have sent many packages that were left on doorsteps all with good outcome. And if your packaging didn't kill the chondros what did? You made this post here on the BOI but it lacks details ,times and specifics. Maybe if you could provide these details I could understand why you feel it is the customers fault that the animals are dead. Or how he was able to contribute to there demise. Like stated before if he contacted you within minutes of the arrival or a short term prior common sense would dictate he did receive the package himself waiver or no waiver.So claiming a technicality to avoid reimbursement when facts may prove it was received in a timely manner seems odd to me.You say the customer gave you reasonable doubt...how? Just by not signing or by being combative when he tried to file a claim with you over this method you use. I am with Dennis, I too thought you wanted a Signature waiver upon 1st reading, I had to reread, what may seem perfectly clear to others may not be so to some.
How many times have we all had a shipping company knock and run...by the time we get to the door there gone, and there's a package sitting there. Or no knock at all just open door to find a box.So putting this much trust into a shipping company to provide proof of delivery doesn't seem 100% safe in my experience. I personally know of several instances where they have lied or signed themselves and left the box at the door or with a neighbor.

So my questions are as follows:
1). How soon after arrival were you 1st contacted and made aware of the DOA...what was the time of arrival ...what was the time of notification
2). What exactly do you believe killed the GTP's if it wasn't shipping
3). What specifically gave you "reasonable doubt" he is being truthful?

I am not trying to make you look bad here...just putting myself in the customers shoes... and trying to see your point as well...to me what is the determining factor here is your "reasonable doubt" that they arrived dead.
TOS like this are generally used to protect the seller from fraud when there has been obvious abuses, No-one likes it when a person gets shafted because of a technicality when there is no obvious abuse...You state there is little doubt in your mind he is trying to abuse the refund policy. So what is the abuse specifically?

 

[Greg Riso]

Legal vs. Moral Grounds

Chris, first off, I'm not here to argue against your tos. They are what they are and you have every right to LEGALLY stand behind them. Looking at this from a MORAL perspective is another story though.
Technically, you are saying you could be standing right beside ABBEY Z.
when she opens up the box, the animal could arrive frozen solid but you're not responsible because there was a signature release on file with FedEx?
You shipped from one area of NY with package pick up time at 2:25 PM to another area of NY and the package arrived at 2:12 PM. We're talking about a mere 24 hour time frame here. Can you NOT pack an animal to last longer than this regardless of signature waivers or other weasel clauses?
Your 5th question on your e-mail checklist asks the customer what their weather conditions are prior to shipment. If you want to more accurately know weather conditions anywhere in the country I highly recommend you go to www.weather.com and simply plug in the zip code of your shipment destination. I feel it is your responsibility to know the shipping conditions not the customers since you're supposed to be responsible for the animal's safety and wellfare. It is my opinion that if I agree to ship an animal to ANY location it is fully MY responsibility to do everything possible to ensure the animal's safe arrival.
In your tos you state, "We ship Tuesday through Thursday using FedEx Priority Overnight which guarantees delivery the morning after shipment, usually by 10:30 am to most locations." You also state, "There are no guarantees on shipments delayed or mishandled by carriers. Claims regarding delayed or mishandled packages must go through the carrier. There are no exceptions." My question is, do you tell your customers that when an animal is shipped on Thursday for Friday arrival, that if delivery is missed a re attempt of delivery will not be made until the following Monday? What are the chances of a mishap occurring this time of year in that scenario? The average customer does not realize that this is in fact what can happen. Again, you're safe because you said you're not responsible but what about the safety of the animal? It is my policy to NEVER ship on Thursday for this reason but what the hell, you're not LEGALLY responsible because this is spelled out in your tos so who cares?
Finally, you make comment about the buyer's reference to being deployed in Iraq on a four year tour being a sympathy ploy. To this I say, IT SURE AS HELL WORKS FOR ME. This guy's overseas worrying about the next roadside bomb while you're worrying about signature releases. I can fully understand why your priorities are much more important.
Chris, you may technically have the purchaser by the short and curlys and may legally be in the right. Now you may proceed to roast and baste everything I've said here just as you did with Justin's post, which btw, I fully agree with and could have written myself. You may hide (sorry I meant stand) behind your tos all you want but there's a moral issue here. The bottom line is ou've got an unhappy customer with dead product. Of course your packing and shipping had absolutely nothing to do with this fact, right? My guess is the signature release must have killed it.
Finally, if you have the nerve to tack on your lawyer's fees on top of what the buyer has already lost IMHO I think you need to take a trip in a Humvee down an Iraqi highway to get a little better perspective on your priorities.

 

[SPJ]

So my questions are as follows:
1). How soon after arrival were you 1st contacted and made aware of the DOA...what was the time of arrival ...what was the time of notification
2). What exactly do you believe killed the GTP's if it wasn't shipping
3). What specifically gave you "reasonable doubt" he is being truthful?

I am curious as well.
How long after delivery did he notify you of the DOA?

 

[chondrogal]

The driver pulled up while on the phone with girl friend and family... package was opened immediately upon arrival, snakes were dead and their is no recourse because of the failure of the buyer to contact FED EX to make certain they didn't have a release form.

I'm thinking the buyer wasn't too concerned about the release form because they had made special arrangements to be there when the package arrived. It's a sad situation. Too bad that the buyer became abusive immediately toward the seller's agents that shipped the snake for Chris while he was out of town. Perhaps if he'd have waited for the owner of TSE to get back in town to respond it may have had a more positive outcome.

Chris, the link on Constrictors.com is now invalid however I was reading the thread probably at the same time as the moderator and it was stated that they DID receive the package immediately upon arrival and it was not sitting on the door step and that they opened it right away with camera..... excited to be getting gtps I'm sure!....

I hope that the buyer will get a chance to read this thread and contact Rich so they can post their side here. Chris is legally not obligated to go any further, I agree with that..... I just hope in the future the buyers might consider a captive bred and born gtps that come with breeder support so that they don't get turned off of this incredible species of snakes permanently thinking that they are all fragile. They are quite hardy actually ...... the babies are small and just need to be tended to a little more attentively in the beginning!

 

[Justin Mitcham]

BTW personally if I knew anyone who spent a tour in Iraq and they came to me to buy, I do whatever I could to make them happy, probably do my best to give them as good as a deal as I could. Maybe even throw in something free. Point is I am very thankful to the sacrifices our military has made for us. Sad to see with some people that doesn't account for much.

 

[Jim O]

Chris,

This is not a "cut and dried" situation for a couple of reasons.

First, as has been asked, how long between when the package was "left at front door" and you were first notified by phone or e-mail? Were the photos time stamped?

Second, if you are going to stand firm on your TOS, then they need to apply equally to TSE and the buyer.

From your TOS:

We ship Tuesday through Thursday using FedEx Priority Overnight which guarantees delivery the morning after shipment, usually by 10:30am to most locations.

This package was shipped "Standard Overnight" which guarantees only a 3:00 PM arrival (see attached screen shot).

Also, if you select one of the "signature required" options currently available through FedEx, that overrides a waiver (see http://www.fedex.com/us/update1.html):

Beginning in fall 2005, FedEx will no longer require a signature for express shipments delivered to residences. This change will make our FedEx Express residential delivery policy consistent with our policy for FedEx Ground® and FedEx Home Delivery® shipments. If a signature is needed for a residential shipment, shippers must choose one of the new FedEx Delivery Signature Options.

----------------------------------------

FedEx Delivery Signature Options for Shipments to Residential Addresses

For shipments to residential addresses, shippers can choose from three FedEx Delivery Signature Options.

Note: If the shipper does not select one of the three signature options, FedEx may deliver the shipment without a signature.

* Indirect Signature Required. FedEx will obtain a signature in one of three ways:
o From any person at the delivery address; or
o From a neighbor, building manager or other person at a neighboring address; or
o The recipient can sign a FedEx door tag authorizing release of the package without anyone present.
The fee for Indirect Signature Required is $1.50.

* Direct Signature Required. FedEx will obtain a signature from any person at the delivery address. If no one is at the address, FedEx will reattempt delivery. The recipient may also choose to pick up the package at the location listed on the door tag. The fee for Direct Signature Required is $2.

Note: Direct Signature Required replaces FedEx Express Signature Required, FedEx Ground® Auto P.O.D., FedEx Home Delivery Auto P.O.D. and FedEx Signature Home DeliverySM services. Until Direct Signature Required is available, shippers can still choose FedEx Express Signature Required, FedEx Ground Auto P.O.D., FedEx Home Delivery Auto P.O.D. and FedEx Signature Home Delivery for a $2 fee.
* Adult Signature Required. FedEx will obtain a signature from any person at least 21 years old (government-issued photo identification required) at the delivery address. If no one is at the address, FedEx will reattempt delivery. The recipient may also choose to pick up the package at the location listed on the door tag. The fee for Adult Signature Required is $2.75.

----------------------------------------

Can I still have shipments delivered without a signature?
Yes. You can still choose Deliver Without a Signature for nonresidential shipments, available for free with FedEx Express services. Just check the Deliver Without a Signature box on your airbill or from the drop-down menu in your electronic shipping solution. This option is not available for FedEx Ground and FedEx Home Delivery shipments.

What happens if I don't choose any of the options?
If you don't choose any of the FedEx Delivery Signature Options, shipments to residences may be delivered without a signature. For shipments to nonresidential addresses, FedEx will attempt to obtain a signature from someone at the delivery address or a neighboring address, and no fee will apply. Shippers can also still choose the Deliver Without a Signature option for shipments to nonresidential addresses, and that will override a recipient release.

What if I signed a recipient signature release?
Recipient releases will no longer be honored for U.S. domestic (U.S. to U.S.) shipments to residential addresses. However, they will continue to be honored for international shipments inbound to U.S. residential addresses. FedEx still honors recipient releases for shipments to nonresidential addresses unless the shipper requests a signature option. Shippers sending FedEx Express packages to nonresidential locations, and who do not have a recipient release on file, may also select the Deliver Without a Signature option in electronic shipping solutions when processing individual shipments.

If I read this correctly, had you paid for a signature, it would have overridden any waiver and the a signature obtained. It would be $2 well spent IMO.

Lastly, I agree with you that the buyer's voluntary service to our country is admirable, but has absolutely no bearing on this transaction and need not have been brought up.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Chris

Let me say first off that I respect your business, your product, and your service, and would not hesitate from doing business with you or recommending you to others. I also think that many of the TOS issues that come to this forum present very interesting fodder, as they often combine the legal with the ethical, and as pointed out by others, they are often in conflict. I agree with much of the characterizations by Justin and Greg as to there being a difference between the two, and you also acknowledge such, in that you seem to have been sympathetic until the customer became impatient and started a negative thread elswhere about you, in which case your position hardened. I have been in that exact same position in this forum, as have others. From a legal standpoint, many situations are black and white, but become gray in the ethical, again well illustrated by Justin and Greg. When I got my hair up in the past, I compelled the offended customer to post a retraction, stating that they hadn't given me a reasonable time to react. They did, and then we squared things. Trust that I respect you greatly, but I do think that you let a customer who decided to lower themselves and attack you poste-haste "get your goat a little", and pull you a little bit off the high road as well. Been there done that. I do not have an ethical disagreement with you which ever way you decide to go, and certainly no legal disagreement either.
On a different note, I am ex-military as well (7 years, 82nd Airborne). I think that the customer may have had a valid point if they had only mentioned that the true recipient/expert was in Iraq with a military commitment, and that those "in the rear" may have botched things a bit. I do not think it was proper for them to try to evoke blatant sympathy as they did. I may not be accurate in all my assumptions as to who was where-when here.
Lastly, all of your efforts, with clear TOS, email reminders, and strict protocols are to be emulated. Balmy 75 degrees here right now ....

 

[romad119]

Well I have taken 2 years of rides in Iraq and Afghanistan. And thats a lame attempt for an excuse why the TOS weren't followed.

Greg: Also, 'stuff' has been going on for 4 yrs, no one has done a four year tour. Though I know what you mean. You will never see me complaining about being alive to even order reptiles, etc. Why defame the dead and using their sacrifices to justify yourself when in the wrong. A simple "I didn't follow through liek I should have, bad on ME." With experience abroad his perspective should realize that this is a small problem. There are millions who wish that their biggest problems in life were things like this. This whole topic isn't even pertinent to Chris's TOS anyways.

If he had followed them then I expect that the animals would be alive and well based off of probability alone.

Its simple, the animals weren't worth the effort for him to ensure he was in compliance with the TOS that was in place. It would be a whole different story if the TOS were followed and the animal was DOA. I don't think that anyone here would think Chris would then leave the customer hanging.

 

[Greg Riso]

So, You Want to Talk TOS?

Another Fauna member, Karen Clark, brought the following to my attention. In your tos at http://www.topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm it is clearly stated, "We ship Tuesday through Thursday using FedEx Priority Overnight which guarantees delivery the morning after shipment, usually by 10:30am to most locations.
Plugging in tracking number 790708271500 clearly shows the package was NOT sent Priority Overnight but rather standard overnight so Chris has in fact violated his own tos.

Tracking number
790708271500

Signed for by
Signature release on file

Ship date
Nov 10, 2005

Delivery date
Nov 11, 2005 2:12 PM


Destination
DEPEW, NY

Delivered to
Residence

Service type
Standard Overnight

Weight
1.0 lbs.



Status
Delivered


Now, it is possible delivery by 10:30 was not an option for the given destination but if this was the case, was the buyer notified of this? If not, it appears the seller is at fault for not adhering to their standard policy as specified in the tos. Perhaps if the package had been delivered by 10:30 AM as promised rather than 2:12 PM the animal would have arrived alive and this thread wouldn't be here The weight of the package at 1 lb. is also a bit on the light side IMHO. Even the smallest of packages I've shipped insulated with stryrofoam, a heat pack, and weight of the animal have ever been less than 2 lbs. Just how was this animal packed Chris?

 

[Jim O]

Lastly, all of your efforts, with clear TOS, email reminders, and strict protocols are to be emulated. Balmy 75 degrees here right now ....

Yes, I agree. And it's 76° here. Go figure.

 

[Chris@TSE]

The notification from the buyer regarding the DOA came about two plus hours after delivery.

Also the buyers standing as a serviceman was not known prior to sale, it was USED as leverage after the claim since he failed to acknowledge his wrongdoing and tried to use a guilt trip rather than simply admit he failed to do what was asked of his in the pre-delivery notice.

Again, this claim was denied simply due to the signature waiverparcel on doorstep and reasonable doubt, Not to mention this customers ignorance after initial contact for claim. He was well informed prior to delivery and acted as if he was never informed of anything after-the-fact. In fact he tried his hardest not to even acknowledge it, instead threatened action through his lawyers. That VERY second I found no further reason to toss around the thought of possibly helping this customer out. He could not wait until I returned Tuesday and wanted to threaten legal action? Go right ahead.....

Again, all of this has been stated before. I was perfectly willing to help this customer out, it was basically a number of things that combined together, made my decision in this matter. And it is a decision that will not change. This customer had ample opportunity to do what was required of him, and he was even told after the fact that I would be reviewing this matter and deciding what, if anything, would be done upon my return Tuesday. Had he acknowledged his failure to remove the waiver and waited until then, he (his fiance) would probably be staring at replacements right now.

Hey look, I repeated something else, AGAIN. Go figure

ttyl guys

 

[Chris@TSE]

Another Fauna member, Karen Clark, brought the following to my attention. In your tos at http://www.topshelfexotic.com/terms.htm it is clearly stated, "We ship Tuesday through Thursday using FedEx Priority Overnight which guarantees delivery the morning after shipment, usually by 10:30am to most locations.
Plugging in tracking number 790708271500 clearly shows the package was NOT sent Priority Overnight but rather standard overnight so Chris has in fact violated his own tos.

Tracking number
790708271500

Signed for by
Signature release on file

Ship date
Nov 10, 2005

Delivery date
Nov 11, 2005 2:12 PM


Destination
DEPEW, NY

Delivered to
Residence

Service type
Standard Overnight

Weight
1.0 lbs.



Status
Delivered


Now, it is possible delivery by 10:30 was not an option for the given destination but if this was the case, was the buyer notified of this? If not, it appears the seller is at fault for not adhering to their standard policy as specified in the tos. Perhaps if the package had been delivered by 10:30 AM as promised rather than 2:12 PM the animal would have arrived alive and this thread wouldn't be here The weight of the package at 1 lb. is also a bit on the light side IMHO. Even the smallest of packages I've shipped insulated with stryrofoam, a heat pack, and weight of the animal have ever been less than 2 lbs. Just how was this animal packed Chris?

Sometimes priority is not an option, to the strangest locations no less.... It defaults to standard automatically. We've had priority be permitted for destinations you would have never thought applicable, and then denied literally down the street. It can be strange sometimes, regardless.... this is why 'most locations' is used. ALL packages are shipped using a overnight service provided by FedEx, the most prompt possible and permitted by default of course.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Now, it is possible delivery by 10:30 was not an option for the given destination but if this was the case, was the buyer notified of this? If not, it appears the seller is at fault for not adhering to their standard policy as specified in the tos. Perhaps if the package had been delivered by 10:30 AM as promised rather than 2:12 PM the animal would have arrived alive and this thread wouldn't be here The weight of the package at 1 lb. is also a bit on the light side IMHO. Even the smallest of packages I've shipped insulated with stryrofoam, a heat pack, and weight of the animal have ever been less than 2 lbs. Just how was this animal packed Chris?

This animal was packed using styrofoam lined boxing, a heating pack, newspaper, deli containers as housing, the standard packaging we use. Like I stated before, twenty or so other parcels left that very same evening, this was the only one reported as "DOA"

We know what we are doing. As for the 1lb description, I am certain it was weighed and invoiced higher, and probably weighed said parcel and adjusted the credit funds deducted for freight. Again, common practice for FedEx. Seems many of you do not do much shipping


The photos we were sent showed the animals supposedly dead in their containers. With the given stryo shipping and standard 40hr pack, these animals should have been MORE than comfortable during shipment, and again,m so were the other 20+ chondro shipments that very same evening. Not one DOA claim aside from this customer. The photos did not do much to show doa status, and if the photos DID show DOA animals, they seem to be FROZEN, ie. which would really explain the left on doorstep statement from fedex and the driver.

Regardless, the simple fact is there is reasonable doubt here, and the customer hindered our ability to guarantee his order. Not only that, but even after this fact was obvious and his case would be reviewed tuesday, he shot himself in the foot, used his service as a crutch and guilt trip, and ruined his chances when in all reailty we probably would have gone out of our way to help this individual out........... we always do.

In this case however, he can.... well.. I better not say what I really feel.

 

[Chris@TSE]

more customer photos

 

[Chris@TSE]

last four.........

 

[Justin Mitcham]

let me get this straight, you failed to pack properly the animals arrived dead, 2 hours later they contacted you and since they didn't do the waiver thing you said tough your loss not mine...your out 500 smackers...the reasonable doubt here I think lies with you..your shipping practices. Personally I think your just looking for a way out to not pay him back and found it, lucky you. So what if they got aggrevated by you, there just as human as you are.They made a mistake, I really doubt it would of had any relavence to the outcome, like most people who spend that kinda cash they were probably at the door before the driver was even off the truck. Seems your terms are written to get you out of any circumstances...Did you know if I ship a package and it arrives 3 days late I will still honor my live,healthy,happy arrival guanrentee. I pack for the worse and don't use "weasle clauses", I am use to exporting so I pack the animals to survive multiple days without care in any weather condition. You should try to do the same, how would you feel if put into a box shipped through fedex, wouldn't you want someone to make sure you were packed properly to be able to survive more than 24hrs? Personally I'd be scared to death to let you pack me...Well Justin time for your trip, BTW you have only enough heat to last 12 hours any delays and you'll probably freeze to death...well thats what happend to the chondros isn't it!!!
Unless you can come up with something better than " ..they called you a mere 2hrs after reciept" ...you should pay them there cash back..you may not be legally obligated due to you TOS but I believe you are morally obligated.The fact they didn't get the waiver right HAD NO DIRECT OUTCOME ON THIS SHIPMENT. EITHER WAY THE GTP"S ARE DEAD.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris, to focus on another accident waiting to happen

It gets back to the "letter of the law" in your TOS with regard to your shipping on Thursdays, but not being liable for claims resulting from delivery delays, in which case I believe you tell the customer that they must file a claim with the carrier. I'm paraphrasing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this allows for a scenario which another poster brought to light involving a Hurricane Wilma delay. I had a specific scenario with an in-state shipment here in Florida in August where I shipped Thursday for Friday AM delivery via UPS, there was no storm, but they still mis-processed the shipment, and it sat locked in a UPS truck in the sun until Monday morning. UPS TOS specifically state that they assume no responsibility for perishables due to any delay. I do not know the exact wording for Fedex or DHL, but am going to assume that they are going to be equally protected. I do not ship on Thursdays any more for that exact reason. But the scenario created by a delay by the carrier on a Thursday shipment from you, delayed until Monday and "cooked" before delivery, would be that you were covered by TOS, the carrier would be covered by TOS, and the customer is cooked too! It is something to keep in mind. Here, if a customer insists on a Thursday shipment for Friday delivery, they are told this story, and must agree to the added risk that they may end up with dead animals on Monday, with no recourse. In my case, I drove replacement animals 200 miles on the following Tuesday and delivered them personally, poorer but wiser.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Unfortunately I am not able to say much more than I have contributed already to this thread as stated previously, so if asking a question already covered here I suggest you re-read the thread and obtain the answer for yourself instead of seeking additional specifics I am unable to provide. Regardless, the decision was made, and final. We were simply unable to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this parcel did not sit on a doorstep for those two plus hours, we were also unable to prove that this customer physically accepted and signed for this parcel due to the signature waiver this customer failed to remove, even after being prompted to research it KNOWING it would effectively void a guarantee. Again, I probably would have found in this customers favor come tuesday in some way shape or form, but he felt obligated to push the issue with Patrick and Glenn via email and use his service as a guilt trip was a bit much IMO and not needed, in fact it worked against him.

I do not think it was proper for them to try to evoke blatant sympathy as they did. Lastly, all of your efforts, with clear TOS, email reminders, and strict protocols are to be emulated. Balmy 75 degrees here right now ....

Exactly.

And thank you, we try to be as specific as possible. Of course our terms as anyones hsould be revised as situations like these present themselves and work should be done to fine tune them accordingly. We try to make sure customers are fully aware of all terms and conditions prior to ordering, and then we utilize pre-deilvery notices to confirm shipping address and acceptance of important terms, also giving them an additional opportunity to do what is required to be covered in the unfortunate event of a mishap. This customer simply did nothing about it......... And then wanted said "coverage" after-the-fact, all the while ignoring what he failed to do. Had he just waited for my review tuesday and refrained from pushing the issue, pushing his service guilt, and ignorantly refusing to admit his part of voiding a guarantee that was specifically outlined he probably would have been covered even though according to our TOS, he should not have been. Again, this situation could have come out quite well for him and his fiance, but unfortunately he felt the need to threaten legal action when he was clearly in the wrong himself. That right there is when our attornies have instructed us to drop everything and move on, leave things to them. And that is what was done.