Bad Guy Jeff Barringer --Kingsnake.com hypocrisy

[Jeff Schofield]

not you

So are you saying your earlier quotation telling us about the genus pantherophis is right? Only reason I'm asking is I wonder who is calling the kettle black here. Just for the record here, I is edumakated and went to a good kolidge, just so you no.

Hey, the response was more for the anyone considering "brooksi" kings as a SPECIES. I thought I explained Genus, Species, Subspecies pretty clear. Many have accepted Pantherophis for a while now, my bad for not knowing it not being 100% accepted. This is the reason for these boards, thanks.

 

[EdwardK]

Ed, I think when it comes to DNA....there isnt any noticable difference between and of the ssp. never mind intergrades of them. I think if most people knew this they wouldnt make such a big deal. Dont get me wrong, I am talking about morph integration only, I wouldnt cross a x b simply for kicks. The sooner people accept that we are talking about domestic cultivars the easier it will be to deal them. I think most can understand this....and I dont say that to be better than anyone, I just enjoy intelligent arguements. Thanks. J

Actually there are going to be differences in the genes as well as allele frequencies. There is a wide body of literature documenting these sorts of variations that are based on geography. For example see http://people.oregonstate.edu/~arnoldst/pdf_files/Arnold 1981a.pdf which discusses inherited dietary preferences in Thamnophis elegans. Another one can be seen here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15664323) where it showed that cold tolerance was dependent on where the snakes originated. These are inherited traits and why simple random crosses between two snakes of specific morph or subspecies cannot be considered intergrades as there can be significant differences in the genes compared to the true "intergrade" and why attempting to represent them as true intergrades is incorrect. True intergrades will have a genetic makeup that provides a survival advantage to the crossbred snake in the habitat in which is native. Crossbred/hybrids from random snakes of the two different parental types from outside of that zone will not carry the same genetic selections and should not be represented as true intergrades. Those are hybrids and should be represented as such.

Ed

 

[JETZEN]

I, Jeff Schofield, have been a user and paying patron of Kingsnake.com classifieds for about 7-8 years, maybe longer. I have had the usual forum run ins with trolls, and have had maybe 2 questionable transactions out of hundreds from the classifieds. My account and standing was pretty impeccable til last week, here is what happened:

I got a email from Jeff Barringer saying that my ads were moved from the KINGSNAKES catagory and placed in the HYBRIDS catagory. Now most of us know anything labelled HYBRID can affect your business reputation significantly. At the same time Jeff B went on the KINGSNAKE forum and informed people of the new HYBRID section. I responded to him there saying his term was incorrect on my snakes in particular(they are considered INTERGRADES), so he added "and INTERGRADES" to that same catagory. To this I responded that it was hypocritical to place such ads there considering that there are hybrids of many types in other catagories such as CROCODILIANS, BOA CONSTRICTORS, CARPET PYTHONS, OTHER SNAKES, and others just to name a few. He didnt go on any of those forums asking people to move their ads. In pointing this out to him I asked for a working definition FROM HIM so that we all can comply with the TOS and that everything is fair and we are playing on a level playing field. I copied and pasted about 20 ads from some of the biggest names in the industry who were advertising hybrids including Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro exotics and others. He responded by closing my account and removing me from his site saying more than once that I was telling him how to run his business. Now by calling my snakes HYBRIDS he has damaged my business, and by unjustly removing me he has damaged it even more. I have all correspondence from him on the matter, not much to argue from his point of view. But as a paying customer of many years in good standing I would expect some level of CUSTOMER SERVICE from him or one of his minions. Am I wrong? Is this LEGAL? As it stands right now there are an aweful lot of hybrids for sale on his site not in the HYBRIDS section including some of the exact snakes I was selling still in the KINGSNAKE section. I waited a week before posting here because he said he had pneumonia so maybe he would see his error and reconsider which he hasnt. He said that my asking to be reinstated was me telling him how to run his business!! Comments and suggestions please!!

hi jeff,
if you don't like the service at ks.com then be rid of it. ks.com is way overated anyway and there are lot of other sites with classifieds that would love to accomadate you and your excellent looking animals.
whats the purpose of being customer if if you're not happy with what you're getting?

 

[Jeff Schofield]

If you want to keep digging a hole... feel free

by your logic I should sell corns and list them as miami x okeetee corns because they are a locality difference (used as an example only... as I dont have any miami corns)

The point Im trying to make is your starting in on me just like you did with Jeff B. You assume that you know it all and the person your talking to doesn't know squat. With that kind of attitude you wouldn't be welcome on my site either.

No, not digging any holes. I think you should be able to call your corns anything you want as long as you honestly represent them. I think you should be able to put ANY kind of corns in the CORNSNAKE classifieds. Unless you have demonstrated knowing the difference I would be equally wrong to assume you knew EVERYTHING right than knowing nothing right? Its a matter of perspective, if you want to be a victim be a victim....if you want to have an intelligent conversation do that. If I post in a forum and want to get through to the most people I would assume that not everyone knew as much about the subject as me, but some may know more. I want to educate those who dont know as much and at the same time have an intelligent arguement with those qualified. I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it. Educating the educated rubs them the wrong way and trying to have an intelligent arguement with those who dont know is frustrating....My arguement with Jeff B was that he demonstrated not knowing the difference, or not caring or both. These subtle differences are important to me and to many like me. I think you would be frustrated if you found your locale crosses in the INTERGRADE section right?

 

[akonitony]

Hey, the response was more for the anyone considering "brooksi" kings as a SPECIES. I thought I explained Genus, Species, Subspecies pretty clear. Many have accepted Pantherophis for a while now, my bad for not knowing it not being 100% accepted. This is the reason for these boards, thanks.

So you were wrong Jeff. It happens to the best of us. But the problem is even when you are wrong, you tend to keep defending your position. Case in point, the above quotation. Rather than say, "Hey, thanks for letting me know that. I was wrong.", or something like that, you barely concede by saying there are many people who agree with you, and your bad not knowing it is "...not 100% accepted." This makes it look like those that were right are in the minority, and you are in fact correct since it is accepted by many. The plain facts in this little example are it is not an accepted genus, and you were 100% wrong, and you need to admit that rather than defending being wrong any further. However, until you can learn just because someone is wrong, they are not stupid, you will probably continue to have these problems more often than not, which is something else you eluded to in one of your recent posts. I don't think you are stupid, after all, for being wrong. Probably 90% of what I have learned was via mistakes. If you ask my wife, it is probably closer to 98%. The more you now defend you position with KS, when you originally asked for advice or opinions, the more you make yourself look condescending, and the more likely you will tend to alienate your peers. Why didn't you just start out in the beginning with: Please advise only if you agree with me?

 

[Southern Wolf]

No, not digging any holes. I think you should be able to call your corns anything you want as long as you honestly represent them. I think you should be able to put ANY kind of corns in the CORNSNAKE classifieds. Unless you have demonstrated knowing the difference I would be equally wrong to assume you knew EVERYTHING right than knowing nothing right? Its a matter of perspective, if you want to be a victim be a victim....if you want to have an intelligent conversation do that. If I post in a forum and want to get through to the most people I would assume that not everyone knew as much about the subject as me, but some may know more. I want to educate those who dont know as much and at the same time have an intelligent arguement with those qualified. I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it. Educating the educated rubs them the wrong way and trying to have an intelligent arguement with those who dont know is frustrating....My arguement with Jeff B was that he demonstrated not knowing the difference, or not caring or both. These subtle differences are important to me and to many like me. I think you would be frustrated if you found your locale crosses in the INTERGRADE section right?

So what your saying is I should be able to but a Turbo Corn in the corns section... or a RootBeer Corn in the corn section?

The part that I bolded just leads me to believe that you think you know more than most folks. Have a good day with your greather than thou attitude. I know someone else with your mindset. He finally rubed enough folks the wrong way and he is no longer welcome on our site.

You may say you want to educate... but it's how your going about it. If you hang onto the... Im smarter than you attitude and what I say is gospil... then you'll have folks that refuse to listen to you no matter what the subject. The person I am refering to used to be a good friend of mine and I defended him for years because he is a very smart individual and knows what he is talking about. However... he also tried to lie on me to make himself look better.... that's when I kicked him to the curb.

Your attitude and this post above reminds me alot of him. I'll be the first to admit that I dont know everything... but I can promise you... with your attitude you'll never school me. I would be willing to bet there are alot of us out there with the same mindset.

You say

I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it.

The problem is... most folks will see it that way. You come off greater than thou. Especially in this post.

 

[akonitony]

I know this sounds "superior", I assure you thats not how I see it.

Oh, in that case we definitely won't think it sounds superior then. You assured us, and what you say goes.

Your honor, the defense rests.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Jeff since you think your smarter than me.... let me toss something out at you.

INTERGRADE -- when two species that share the same range are closely enough related that they breed. Cornsnake x Ratsnake. Take it one step farther. There are intergrades of sub species. Two different ratsnakes breeding. To be an intergrade it happens out in nature.

HYBRIDS -- when two species are crossed that would not normally breed with each other. King x Cornsnake or any other combination that is man made. Someone mentioned that some of what you work with dont share the same local... how are those intergrades? They cant be.... it wouldn't ever happen in nature... they are not in the same range. Those are hybrids.

The term INTERGRADES was used to denote a natural crossing of species / subspecies. If YOUR breeding them .. then its not natural. Thus they should be hybrids.

 

[ophidile]

So what your saying is I should be able to but a Turbo Corn in the corns section... or a RootBeer Corn in the corn section?

I admit, I usually expect to see creams/rootbeers in the corns section, and don't mind seeing the crazier hybrids either.
It sounds like this new kingsnake catagory's going to add a lot of headache and grief, but I think that's up for Jeff to decide and deal with. It does seem strange to me to make it its own category rather than a subsection of each. A creamsicle corn, or even a jungle corn, has a lot more in common with corns than with a Boelens python cross.

But I think the OP ought to have stated their case much more politely. What I've read here does sound quite demanding and it seems the owner of kingsnake isn't the sort to ignore that.

Ehhh I just use it to keep track of local events anyway.

 

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff since you think your smarter than me.... let me toss something out at you.

INTERGRADE -- when two species that share the same range are closely enough related that they breed. Cornsnake x Ratsnake. Take it one step farther. There are intergrades of sub species. Two different ratsnakes breeding. To be an intergrade it happens out in nature.

HYBRIDS -- when two species are crossed that would not normally breed with each other. King x Cornsnake or any other combination that is man made. Someone mentioned that some of what you work with dont share the same local... how are those intergrades? They cant be.... it wouldn't ever happen in nature... they are not in the same range. Those are hybrids.

The term INTERGRADES was used to denote a natural crossing of species / subspecies. If YOUR breeding them .. then its not natural. Thus they should be hybrids.

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

 

[East_Coast]

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

 

[scaledverts]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

WOW.....just WOW. The bolded part embodies why you are in this situation to begin with! Your OPINION about a subject is the right one and everyone else just doesn't know what they are talking about.



You seem to be continuing to


Oh well what can you do

 

[JETZEN]

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

what are you doing here JOLLES aka "sweetpickle"? i thought you were banned from causing trouble. AH!!!hahahahahah-ha-ha,lolol!!!

 

[akonitony]

Now-now, don't take just one sentence out of a well-thought-out posting. You need to include other vital information like his degrees and experience.
I bet my degrees can kick your degrees butt!

 

[WebSlave]

Quit with the personal attacks and name calling, please. If you cannot converse without doing so, I strongly suggest you find somewhere else to play.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.

How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Rich... I was typing up my post when you posted.. .and I dont think it fits your critera... but if it does... I apologize.

 

[EdwardK]

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

Which definition of species includes as part of the definition that species cannot intergrade? Please supply a reference from a substantial source (Reptiles Magazine is not a substantial source in this case). I'll challenge it with the lengthy definition out of Herpetology, An Introductory Biology of Amphibians and Reptiles; Academic Press, 2001 which does not include any such language..

Ed

Ed

 

[RCampbell]

Jeff,

It seems to me that you reacted out of irritation, frustration and anger. That hostility left the other Jeff backed into a corner with no action left, by your insistence.
I am not even dealing with the taxonomic discussion but rather your immediate and I feel seriously flawed view of your role as a customer.

Thinking that a company you pay to advertise with as working for you is seriously flawed.
I assure you that when advertising in the New York Post or other large newspapers, the editors and owners don't consider you upper echelon in the company.

KS doesn't work for ANYONE BUT KS. Your ability to post adds is a way for you to work for yourself and advertise to a large market, that's why you don't get a paycheck from KS. Also why you don't send paychecks to people who pay you for snakes, do you work for them since they are paying customers?

Obviously customer service is important. Making sure customers feel appreciated and taking time to answer questions or other issues helps maintain relationships. In this instance you obviously felt slighted, and unfairly targeted....but your approach and your perceived position were enough to grate on anyone and create tension. Creating tension does not allow for constructive dialogue.

I don't know you and I am not attacking you at all here Jeff. I have lived long enough to have had some life experience teach me that raising hackles and snapping off are not the best course of action. We have all done it, especially when we feel we feel we are "in the right". I post in response to this only to have you step back and look at the situation and your knee-jerk reaction, and see it accomplished nothing constructive, and hope you learn from it.

-Riley Campbell

 

[TriangleReptiles]

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

So if my wild caught desert king breeds with my wild caught speckled king in my snake room, the offspring are hybrid? And if the same two snakes had bred in the wild (as they often do in Texas), the offspring are intergrades? I'm not buying that arguement.