Bad Guy Jeff Barringer --Kingsnake.com hypocrisy

[akonitony]

I cant believe I read that whole thing. As an unbiased observer, who has never bred a snake in my life, I easily grasp the argument on the hybrid thing as explained here. Mythical snakes from location A eat rodents mostly, while snakes in location C eat mostly birds. Natural breeding in the wild might end up with AXC in the middle(location B) who like to eat frogs. Mix A and C in a tank and the babies might hate frogs.

I as far as the original topic goes, it doesn't seem fair that some ads got moved while others didn't. But I'm guessing its like someone else said. He was probably sick of the OP and used it as a reason. I'm bored with the guy after one thread. Might be the reason his ads got fast tracked to the new system in the first place for all I know. Doesn't really matter. If you own a site, you dont have to be right. You own it, and the right to do what you want with it, while deciding who else gets to do what on it, for any reason at any time. Its not like getting ripped off or done wrong to, its more like someone asking you to leave there home, even if its only because they're sick of your company.

The big question is, what now? Whats another 20 pages going to change? Nobody here is getting there minds changed about anything. Its kinda turned into one of those "beat the dead horse" things about 15 pages ago.

It is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people starting posting it not knowing what it was,
and now they can't stop posting it because:
It is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends...

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Your so full of your eyes are brown.

YOU made this topic about definitions. YOU said your animals didn't belong in the hybrids section.

game, set, match....winner by unanimous decision Southern Wolf.

I most certainly see your side of the argument, but i would like you to take a step back from the situation and try and think about it from somebody elses perspective than your own. Regardless the quality of your animals, the i can do no wrong attitude isnt helping in a discussion to prove your point. If you have literature that will prove you correct by all means please post it, this thread was started over the interpretation or misinterpretation of a word which led to your animals being moved. By all means if your definition is correct link us up and help us out cause your not making it easy to see anythnig else besides betting kingsnake is glad to be rid of the drama. I wish you the best jeff, i might have actually purchased something from you if i didnt read this thread. But what i can see, even if you have the best looking specimin ive ever seen, the customer service factor is lacking. Wish the time and energy devoted to this thread and to bashing somebody would have instead been put towards helping people with their questions in other threads.......this is a gross misuse of the knowledge on the site, so everybody lets just stop replying cause he cant argue if nobody is listening

 

[Jeff Schofield]

game, set, match....winner by unanimous decision Southern Wolf.

I most certainly see your side of the argument, but i would like you to take a step back from the situation and try and think about it from somebody elses perspective than your own. Regardless the quality of your animals, the i can do no wrong attitude isnt helping in a discussion to prove your point. If you have literature that will prove you correct by all means please post it, this thread was started over the interpretation or misinterpretation of a word which led to your animals being moved. By all means if your definition is correct link us up and help us out cause your not making it easy to see anythnig else besides betting kingsnake is glad to be rid of the drama. I wish you the best jeff, i might have actually purchased something from you if i didnt read this thread. But what i can see, even if you have the best looking specimin ive ever seen, the customer service factor is lacking. Wish the time and energy devoted to this thread and to bashing somebody would have instead been put towards helping people with their questions in other threads.......this is a gross misuse of the knowledge on the site, so everybody lets just stop replying cause he cant argue if nobody is listening

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

The topic is you because you started the thread... and KS because you wanted to complain about them.

For some strange reason you think you should be left out of the topic. Hate to burst your bubble... but it dont work that way.

 

[laterob]

Enough alerady, Jeff! 23 pages of this now. You win.

Here's your prizes:
1. I agree there is hypocrisy going on.
2. You've alienated one (if not two) sources of business.
3. You've portrayed yourself as a raving, childish lunatic (at times).
4. You've convinced me, and perhaps others, to run from you.

What am I missing? About 20 pages ago, you sputtered some 'I can't sacrifice my principles' nonsense. You haven't. What was your desired outcome in all of this? Has it not been achieved?

Please, let it go. You win the arguement. If I see 'please stay on topic' from you again, I think I'll throw up.

 

[WebSlave]

If someone believes that a post is off topic, please use the "Report a post" function to report it to the moderators. They will handle it and make that determination without cluttering up this thread needlessly. It is NOT necessary to make a post in this thread proclaiming that this sort of thing has taken place.

 

[scaledverts]

Jeff - You were asked to provide some evidence for your "definition" of hybrid and intergrade since evidence that refutes your "definition" has been presented numerous times. And you come back with this...........

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many categories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

It has also been mentioned that when you change the policies of a website it will take some time before everything is worked out. Not to mention that the new category specifically says "Hybrid & Intergrade Colubrids," so unless you are seeing posts in the colubrid categories that are hybrids you don't have a leg to stand on anymore with your "hypocrisy" claims!

So there you have it. This post is "ON TOPIC" and it still shows that you really don't have much of a claim here.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Who is bashing? I never started with anyone. What was the topic? Hypocrisy. My animals aside, why are there STILL hybrids and intergrades in so many catagories over there? Why have the current posters over there going unpunished? Hypocrisy. I'm not interested in your favorite pizza or shoe size, please stay on topic.

like i asked, this thread is based on the definition of a word. Kingsnake was in the process of updating their format at the time when this went down so they might not have had everything up and running at full speed and you possibly might have been the first vendor to have their animals "relisted" in a different category

However your entire defense is hinged on a definition. You say your hybrids are integrades and he made a hybrid and integrade section and that wasnt enough for you. i asked you last time that if you have information relative to proving your definition is correct to please post it. If you cant provide any information backign up your side then stop bad mouthing people in this thread. Show others your side not just tell us and expect us to follow blindly. I saw your animals posted on the forums, the firecracker is pretty. However as i previously stated, i dont care how beautiful the animals are if the customer service end is lacking.

You got banned from kingsnake, im sorry for that, but whining on a different forum like a child doesnt make you right it merely makes you childish. Help us understand your point cause merely telling us without citing sources wont cut it. If your so certain your definition is correct then show us because i have only seen you argue and never try to educate people on your stance. Cant help somebody that dont wanna be helped, cant talk to anybody that doesnt wanna listen, and cant give someone the benefit of the doubt if their not credible.

 

[Jeff Schofield]

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_conf_article.pdf

 

[East_Coast]

More of the same.

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_conf_article.pdf

Jeff,

Again, no offense, but regarding the semantic games (yes GAMES) you are playing with the words 'subspecies' and 'hybrid':

Most people (I think) in the hobby consider the breeding of two subspecies that would not naturally cross paths (like say a Florida King x California King) to be something less than a true "intergrade".

Since this common sense is getting in the way of you selling something shiny and new...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

... you will not relent until the whole world bows down to your reasoning.

We won't. As evidenced by Jeff at KS & most people in here... I believe you have lost this argument.

Maybe you could start selling the snakes with a pack of baseball cards(?) - or maybe give away a pet rock with them (I don't know... you could paint them or something?)...

I don't know Jeff... get creative. You're the "businessman" here and the GREAT MIND that has it all figured out.

Good luck...

 

[scaledverts]

So, I just found a dissertation that has some information pertinent to this thread. Basically it argues that L. g. brooksi is not any different than L. g. floridana. The easiest way to navigate it is to search for the species names.

Anyway, here is the link.

http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0000326/KKryskodissertation.pdf

Happy reading

 

[EdwardK]

Dont believe me, here is the quickest web definition.
http://www.webref.org/invertebrate/s/subspecies.htm

And just some of the papers:
http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer
http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_conf_article.pdf

Jeff,

1) the definition you cited does not state anywhere that a hybrid is not an intergrade or vice versa.

2) the reference to http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/wb/v11n04/p0205-p0206.pdf
(the Junco paper is referring to a cross between two species... not subspecies as you maintain and if you read through to page 206, the article states quote "Hybrid mearnsi X caniceps individuals have been recognized previously"endquote. The best this paper does is indicate that hybrid and intergrade are interchangable even when used to describe crosses between species.

3) http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Sceloporus_serrifer again does not exclude hybrid from having the same meaning as intergrade.

4) again if you read through the paper (http://eprints.utas.edu.au/7894/1/Potts_et_al._2007_Southern_Forests_glob_reprod_conf_article.pdf) (eucalyptus one..) does not exclude intergrade and hybrid from having the same definition.. I have to reread it more closely but the page following the discussion of intergrades also appears to discuss those as being hybrids.

I suggest reading the citations I posted in this thread in post #168 (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=168) as those peer reviewed and published articles which readily demonstrate that intergrade and hybrid are used with the same meaning by the authors..

Some comments.

Ed

 

[hhmoore]

Comments about the quality, or value, of Mr Schofield's snakes are not pertinent to this thread. The debate over the difference between hybrids and intergrades has value...but isn't likely to be resolved here (it has, after all, been a point of contention for years).

 

[cobraman1]

Look, Everyone is going to have there own opinion of the defintions and I doubt anyone is going to change the way they think. The main point, as stated in the title, is that KS ONLY has a hybrid/intergrade division in the colubrid section. I agree that is is hypocritical to force the colubrid sellers to use this ad section but exclude everyone else. Its not fair at all actually. I have no problem with KS, but I do think if one person has to do something then they all should. I know some of you are saying its going to take time, but that is BS. Its been well over a month since all the changes have been made.

 

[kgmax1228]

TOS at K/S

I, Jeff Schofield, have been a user and paying patron of Kingsnake.com classifieds for about 7-8 years, maybe longer. I have had the usual forum run ins with trolls, and have had maybe 2 questionable transactions out of hundreds from the classifieds. My account and standing was pretty impeccable til last week, here is what happened:

I got a email from Jeff Barringer saying that my ads were moved from the KINGSNAKES catagory and placed in the HYBRIDS catagory. Now most of us know anything labelled HYBRID can affect your business reputation significantly. At the same time Jeff B went on the KINGSNAKE forum and informed people of the new HYBRID section. I responded to him there saying his term was incorrect on my snakes in particular(they are considered INTERGRADES), so he added "and INTERGRADES" to that same catagory. To this I responded that it was hypocritical to place such ads there considering that there are hybrids of many types in other catagories such as CROCODILIANS, BOA CONSTRICTORS, CARPET PYTHONS, OTHER SNAKES, and others just to name a few. He didnt go on any of those forums asking people to move their ads. In pointing this out to him I asked for a working definition FROM HIM so that we all can comply with the TOS and that everything is fair and we are playing on a level playing field. I copied and pasted about 20 ads from some of the biggest names in the industry who were advertising hybrids including Ben Siegel, Crutchfield, Glades, Pro exotics and others. He responded by closing my account and removing me from his site saying more than once that I was telling him how to run his business. Now by calling my snakes HYBRIDS he has damaged my business, and by unjustly removing me he has damaged it even more. I have all correspondence from him on the matter, not much to argue from his point of view. But as a paying customer of many years in good standing I would expect some level of CUSTOMER SERVICE from him or one of his minions. Am I wrong? Is this LEGAL? As it stands right now there are an aweful lot of hybrids for sale on his site not in the HYBRIDS section including some of the exact snakes I was selling still in the KINGSNAKE section. I waited a week before posting here because he said he had pneumonia so maybe he would see his error and reconsider which he hasnt. He said that my asking to be reinstated was me telling him how to run his business!! Comments and suggestions please!!

You don't have to like them,only follow them-it is a dictatorship,NOT a democracy

 

[David Scarboro]

It is really funny,

You don't have to like them,only follow them-it is a dictatorship,NOT a democracy

Jeff Schofield used to go the forums at kingsnake.com and brag about his "island milksnakes" that he had found. He said they were a new species, he was in the process of getting DNA work done to prove it, yada yada yada. When I questioned him about it, he complained to Jeff Barringer and had my posts, and his removed! Karma is a Bitch!

 

[Jeff Schofield]

Jeff Schofield used to go the forums at kingsnake.com and brag about his "island milksnakes" that he had found. He said they were a new species, he was in the process of getting DNA work done to prove it, yada yada yada. When I questioned him about it, he complained to Jeff Barringer and had my posts, and his removed! Karma is a Bitch!

David, I treated the forum as a forum, I dont see you callin out anyone else posting pics of the snakes they find as bragging. I didnt complain to have your posts removed, they were removed by the moderator because they were slanderous and off topic as usual. I will note that kingsnake.com has NOT changed their practices of selective enforcement and there are snakes available in the kingsnake section today that are exactly like the ones(same exact lineage)that got me banned. Hypocrisy lives.

 

[David Scarboro]

David, I treated the forum as a forum, I dont see you callin out anyone else posting pics of the snakes they find as bragging. I didnt complain to have your posts removed, they were removed by the moderator because they were slanderous and off topic as usual. I will note that kingsnake.com has NOT changed their practices of selective enforcement and there are snakes available in the kingsnake section today that are exactly like the ones(same exact lineage)that got me banned. Hypocrisy lives.

Actually, I haven't heard anyone else say that they had discovered a new species. You did. How did those DNA tests come out? I do not think it was so much what you did that got you banned, as the way you did it. You come off as a total ass, make sweeping inaccurate startements and are generally a jerk. You started an argument with Jeff B, the guy that owns the site! Smart!You have told me that you are the "consummate biologist", I think you got the first part fight, but the rules here prohibit me from finishing that.

 

[Jeff Schofield]

Actually, I haven't heard anyone else say that they had discovered a new species. You did. How did those DNA tests come out? I do not think it was so much what you did that got you banned, as the way you did it. You come off as a total ass, make sweeping inaccurate startements and are generally a jerk. You started an argument with Jeff B, the guy that owns the site! Smart!You have told me that you are the "consummate biologist", I think you got the first part fight, but the rules here prohibit me from finishing that.

David, just stop. Yes I had an inkling that they COULD be a SSP, and submitted the DNA for testing. If they were different do you really think a forum is the proper place to announce it?? You accuse me of "sweeping inaccurate statements", your whole diatribe is just that. I dont care who you are, when you descriminate its WRONG. Jeff B was and still is WRONG for how he handled it, I was simply standing up for myself. You can find the stupidest thing to complain about so next time get your facts straight please. Thanks.

 

[AbsoluteApril]

either take it to PMs or start an appropriate BOI if you really feel the need, this thread is about Kingsnake.com

thank you,
-April