SPJ
Well-known member
A buddy of mine has a pair of easterns and that pic looks identical to what they look like. I may not be an "expert" but if I saw that snake for sale, I would never in a million years believe it to be a red milk.
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Jeff Schofield
- Thread starter David Scarboro
- Start date
thomas davis
New member
well
thats because its not a red milk and jeff.s. know its not, he simply misrepresented it, its funny he(jeff.s.) wants to talk"experts"ha whatever like i said get ANYONE from the herp comunity to say thats a red or even an intergrade for that matter, ANYONE.
thomas davis
thats because its not a red milk and jeff.s. know its not, he simply misrepresented it, its funny he(jeff.s.) wants to talk"experts"ha whatever like i said get ANYONE from the herp comunity to say thats a red or even an intergrade for that matter, ANYONE.
thomas davis
Anyone attempting to ID this snake by this pic is crazy
I consider myself an EXPERT in IDing NA milks.I can tell locale by pattern ID almost 90% of the time......which is FAR better than most.NO,I am never perfect but when SHANNON BROWN sells me a snake as Madison co IA animal,it looks like that,well I take it for what it is.I ask him what he did with what I think to be an ARK red I sent him on wed.....(??) AFTER making a stink about me,lol. Anyone tell me what I should do about this guy????Jeff
I consider myself an EXPERT in IDing NA milks.I can tell locale by pattern ID almost 90% of the time......which is FAR better than most.NO,I am never perfect but when SHANNON BROWN sells me a snake as Madison co IA animal,it looks like that,well I take it for what it is.I ask him what he did with what I think to be an ARK red I sent him on wed.....(??) AFTER making a stink about me,lol. Anyone tell me what I should do about this guy????Jeff
thomas davis
New member
yeak ok
jeff.s. get shannon to come here and say that that animal is a red milk, get ANYONE to say thats a redmilk anyone! i do also consider my self a lampropeltis expert and the truth is the animal in the pic is an eastern milk NOT a redmilk.and what you should do is make it right either refund the man or send him a redmilksnake.ya pawned off an eastern as a red and thats just pathetic to misrepresent animals in such a way.
so come'on jeff.s. get ANYONE in the herp comunity ANYONE! TO COME HEAR AND SAY THATS AN EASTERN MILK, i as im sure many others will be patiently waiting
thomas davis
jeff.s. get shannon to come here and say that that animal is a red milk, get ANYONE to say thats a redmilk anyone! i do also consider my self a lampropeltis expert and the truth is the animal in the pic is an eastern milk NOT a redmilk.and what you should do is make it right either refund the man or send him a redmilksnake.ya pawned off an eastern as a red and thats just pathetic to misrepresent animals in such a way.
so come'on jeff.s. get ANYONE in the herp comunity ANYONE! TO COME HEAR AND SAY THATS AN EASTERN MILK, i as im sure many others will be patiently waiting
thomas davis
Sasheena
Imperfect
Clarification:
Jeff: You are saying that you purchased the snake from Shannon Brown, as a Red Milk, and later sold it as the same to someone else, resulting in this fiasco? Just wanted to make sure.
Would help if you gentlemen would, WITHOUT all the emotion, explain exactly what happened for the entire transaction... here. Explain what the exact deal was, and why it was unsatisfactory. I know there are claims that the animal is an eastern instead of a red (I don't know milk snakes that well so I am certainly no judge). But it would be nice to have emotionless timelines that demonstrate what happened, and where things went wrong.
Just a suggestion
Jeff: You are saying that you purchased the snake from Shannon Brown, as a Red Milk, and later sold it as the same to someone else, resulting in this fiasco? Just wanted to make sure.
Would help if you gentlemen would, WITHOUT all the emotion, explain exactly what happened for the entire transaction... here. Explain what the exact deal was, and why it was unsatisfactory. I know there are claims that the animal is an eastern instead of a red (I don't know milk snakes that well so I am certainly no judge). But it would be nice to have emotionless timelines that demonstrate what happened, and where things went wrong.
Just a suggestion
thomas davis
New member
well
where things went wrong is jeff.s misrepresented an eastern milk as a redmilk thomas davis
where things went wrong is jeff.s misrepresented an eastern milk as a redmilk
thomas davisDetails
I sent David about 7-9 snakes for his 4.He shipped first,I shipped and didnt hear from him until this thread was already started.As soon as I heard his critiques I got in touch with him to clarify the IDing of the milks as well as agreeing to ship an addtional red milk because he was unsatisfied.I STILL insist that to be a red milk--very much like the pic in Markel's milksnake book.I bought it and several others from Shannon Brown as LOCALE animals last year(in fact sold off a pr to Dwight Good who NEVER doubted the ID).This snake is healthy,feeding,proven breeder.I sent pics of everything(the pics were a few months old)and even through him in a baby painted turtle just to keep him happy.I then sent the addtional red milk which he claims to never gotten.....My remarks have been emotionless.I have copied David's heated words though.I ask again to anyone--what more could/should I have done?? I did more than most would.Jeff Schofield
I sent David about 7-9 snakes for his 4.He shipped first,I shipped and didnt hear from him until this thread was already started.As soon as I heard his critiques I got in touch with him to clarify the IDing of the milks as well as agreeing to ship an addtional red milk because he was unsatisfied.I STILL insist that to be a red milk--very much like the pic in Markel's milksnake book.I bought it and several others from Shannon Brown as LOCALE animals last year(in fact sold off a pr to Dwight Good who NEVER doubted the ID).This snake is healthy,feeding,proven breeder.I sent pics of everything(the pics were a few months old)and even through him in a baby painted turtle just to keep him happy.I then sent the addtional red milk which he claims to never gotten.....My remarks have been emotionless.I have copied David's heated words though.I ask again to anyone--what more could/should I have done?? I did more than most would.Jeff Schofield
Chris Kennard
Well-known member
There are areas where the ranges overlap, thus making "locale" an irrelevant issue. Also the fact that a pair was "sold off" to another party is irrelevant as well. Perhaps the easy way to settle the matter would be to post a photo of the snakes head to determine if it is in fact Eastern or pure red. Correct me please if I am wrong, but I believe Easterns have a "y" or "v" shape on their head while the Reds do not? Reds have a "collar" on the neck, unlike Easterns, yes?
David Scarboro
Active member
ok jeff, you asked for it
Above Jeff states that he sent me 7-9 snakes. He sent 6, one of which was out of the pkg. ALL but 1 of the rest were totally misrepresented! Also above he states that he sent pictures of them all! Below is an email from him about the lack of pics.
Lets see here.Sounds like you are into different stuff.How about the red milk,the 2 thayeri and a gentilis for your trio?I would throw some other freebies in as well....Think about it.Sorry,my girlfriend lost my digital camera......no pics,Jeff
See what I mean. This "gentleman has lied his way through the whole process.
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
Above Jeff states that he sent me 7-9 snakes. He sent 6, one of which was out of the pkg. ALL but 1 of the rest were totally misrepresented! Also above he states that he sent pictures of them all! Below is an email from him about the lack of pics.
Lets see here.Sounds like you are into different stuff.How about the red milk,the 2 thayeri and a gentilis for your trio?I would throw some other freebies in as well....Think about it.Sorry,my girlfriend lost my digital camera......no pics,Jeff
See what I mean. This "gentleman has lied his way through the whole process.
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
David Scarboro
Active member
wow
Too bad I didn't get any of these animals!
David, you already sound like a standup guy to me.Kirk is a great milksnake guy and its too bad he doesnt get more of the nice reds that he used to,oh well.The albino nelsoni MAY be sold,I have a deal pending so I will let you know on that.The red milk here is going good,eating well for a male during the breeding season.I have other stuff available as well(NICE gravid garters,gentilis,etc...you likely have seen my list),its all GOOD stuff that isnt offered too often.I also have a couple HYPO/het coastal plains milks babies due in next week(from a breeding loan,dont know sexes yet)that will be available.I REALLY want that fem brooks as I am expanding my HYPO lines.I think we should be able to work something out.Keep in touch,Jeff
Too bad I didn't get any of these animals!
David, you already sound like a standup guy to me.Kirk is a great milksnake guy and its too bad he doesnt get more of the nice reds that he used to,oh well.The albino nelsoni MAY be sold,I have a deal pending so I will let you know on that.The red milk here is going good,eating well for a male during the breeding season.I have other stuff available as well(NICE gravid garters,gentilis,etc...you likely have seen my list),its all GOOD stuff that isnt offered too often.I also have a couple HYPO/het coastal plains milks babies due in next week(from a breeding loan,dont know sexes yet)that will be available.I REALLY want that fem brooks as I am expanding my HYPO lines.I think we should be able to work something out.Keep in touch,Jeff
David Scarboro
Active member
more of jeff's emails
David,first of all the eastern and the red you have mixed up.The eastern is from a REAL rare locale that I discovered about 10 years ago but have been awaiting research to publish papers.The bigger RED is a nice animal,but is not "typical"of MO reds.....it is from IA.The others look appropriate,they are likely benefitting from the move as most snakes I know LIKE the jostle of shipping and feed better.I think that genitilis will recover fine,it was feeding on f/t fuzzies no problem before shipping(besides the obvious male skinniness).I am still not sure what you want for compensation and I know you are still holding a PYRO that is likely a great animal.....Hey,its mostly up to you.I do know I made out "better" in the trade but seriously had nothing more to offer up as "freebies"more than the turtle-which I am very glad you liked!.If you want to get back to me on these feel free,as usual I am always more than accomidating,Jeff
David,first of all the eastern and the red you have mixed up.The eastern is from a REAL rare locale that I discovered about 10 years ago but have been awaiting research to publish papers.The bigger RED is a nice animal,but is not "typical"of MO reds.....it is from IA.The others look appropriate,they are likely benefitting from the move as most snakes I know LIKE the jostle of shipping and feed better.I think that genitilis will recover fine,it was feeding on f/t fuzzies no problem before shipping(besides the obvious male skinniness).I am still not sure what you want for compensation and I know you are still holding a PYRO that is likely a great animal.....Hey,its mostly up to you.I do know I made out "better" in the trade but seriously had nothing more to offer up as "freebies"more than the turtle-which I am very glad you liked!.If you want to get back to me on these feel free,as usual I am always more than accomidating,Jeff
David Scarboro
Active member
read for yourself, it gets better
David,I didnt here back from you after my shipment,usually this is a good sign,lol.The red milk is the larger one,it is NOT 7" but at least 2'.The gentilis is a skinny male,and I never claimed them to be cb as I got these from Shannon Brown last year-males are notoriously skinny this time of year as they usually have one thing on their mind.The eastern milk was "kind of" a throw in as it was wc the week I shipped--and I told you these wc are prone to blistering remember? I would not doubt that you MAY have a feeding problem with him because he is fresh but that is how I get mine to do the best--start with small ones tease feeding.Honestly I am wondering if one of the snakes may have escaped packaging(dont know how considering the sheer amount of duct tape used,lol)so I would like to confirm some pics.The albino nelsoni is a nice adult.I was going to throw in some other stuff like I told you but was COMPLETELY taken by this guy in Florida so I couldnt add more from that order.I will try and work things out with you as I want you to feel satisfied.Let me know what you want to do.THanks,Jeff
David,I didnt here back from you after my shipment,usually this is a good sign,lol.The red milk is the larger one,it is NOT 7" but at least 2'.The gentilis is a skinny male,and I never claimed them to be cb as I got these from Shannon Brown last year-males are notoriously skinny this time of year as they usually have one thing on their mind.The eastern milk was "kind of" a throw in as it was wc the week I shipped--and I told you these wc are prone to blistering remember? I would not doubt that you MAY have a feeding problem with him because he is fresh but that is how I get mine to do the best--start with small ones tease feeding.Honestly I am wondering if one of the snakes may have escaped packaging(dont know how considering the sheer amount of duct tape used,lol)so I would like to confirm some pics.The albino nelsoni is a nice adult.I was going to throw in some other stuff like I told you but was COMPLETELY taken by this guy in Florida so I couldnt add more from that order.I will try and work things out with you as I want you to feel satisfied.Let me know what you want to do.THanks,Jeff
David Scarboro
Active member
Anyone besides me seeing a pattern here?
David,I THINK I understand your point of view but that does NOT give you a right to try and ruin a reputation that has taken me years to build.I too have been a part of some bad deals but I have been understanding if someone TRIES to make it right.Say what you will but I have tried,you cant argue with that.Sending an extra animal and eating the shipping like I did is NO SMALL thing,you have to know that.I simply CANT BELIEVE that a small,cooled snake could force a hole in that sock(It wasnt old and ratty,just a bit dirty!lol)and THEN avoid all the duct tape to escape.....Being emotional doesnt do anyone any good.I am out another snake and shipping so the deal is really done at this point,sorry.I hope everything works out for you,Jeff
There was so much duct tape on the pkg., that it was an obvious, (to me) message. Just a stinking gym sock with a hole the size of my thumb in it!
Thanks for looking
David Scarboro
David,I THINK I understand your point of view but that does NOT give you a right to try and ruin a reputation that has taken me years to build.I too have been a part of some bad deals but I have been understanding if someone TRIES to make it right.Say what you will but I have tried,you cant argue with that.Sending an extra animal and eating the shipping like I did is NO SMALL thing,you have to know that.I simply CANT BELIEVE that a small,cooled snake could force a hole in that sock(It wasnt old and ratty,just a bit dirty!lol)and THEN avoid all the duct tape to escape.....Being emotional doesnt do anyone any good.I am out another snake and shipping so the deal is really done at this point,sorry.I hope everything works out for you,Jeff
There was so much duct tape on the pkg., that it was an obvious, (to me) message. Just a stinking gym sock with a hole the size of my thumb in it!
Thanks for looking
David Scarboro
David Scarboro
Active member
and he says I called him names!
David,you are a sob.That snake you got is a RED MILK.I dont know how many of them you have seen,or maybe just the ones you have seen are the NICE Missouri animals......it is no coincidence that the pics most people see and like are of exceptional animals.That one is not exceptional I agree,but finding and purchasing exceptional ones is almost impossible.....I got mine by buying out whole collections and then holding back the 1-2 snakes that caused me to make the purchase and selling off the remainder at a loss. I have another red milk,but I dont want to send it to you if you are going to complain about it too.If you go to my pictures on the kingsnake gallery and take a look at the pic of the RED you got,you will see a redder,smaller one in the background.IF that one is acceptable to you I will send him as well.Let me know,Jeff
David,you are a sob.That snake you got is a RED MILK.I dont know how many of them you have seen,or maybe just the ones you have seen are the NICE Missouri animals......it is no coincidence that the pics most people see and like are of exceptional animals.That one is not exceptional I agree,but finding and purchasing exceptional ones is almost impossible.....I got mine by buying out whole collections and then holding back the 1-2 snakes that caused me to make the purchase and selling off the remainder at a loss. I have another red milk,but I dont want to send it to you if you are going to complain about it too.If you go to my pictures on the kingsnake gallery and take a look at the pic of the RED you got,you will see a redder,smaller one in the background.IF that one is acceptable to you I will send him as well.Let me know,Jeff
David Scarboro
Active member
finally!
I will keep this as emotionless as possible.
1. Mr Schofield totally misrepresented his animals.
2. I had specifically asked for animals eating f/t. That didn't happen.
3. He can't pack animals.
4. He can't keep his numbers straight. Earlier in this thread, he states "I sent 7-9 snakes" (he sent six) (and then a dirty gym sock) I would suggest that he doesn't know what he sent. Also, after the first pkg. (which I never got, it was returned to him with a snake hanging out of it) I resent him all my contact info. (excerpt below) then he had the audacity to state on this thread that my phone was disconnected. Never has been, Never Will! Jeff, Too many lol's not enough plain honesty!
Thanks
David
David Scarboro Jr.
6309 Hwy 19 N.
Dahlonega, Ga. 30533
hm. 706 864-0670
cell 706 344-2706
If instant karma really does "knock you in the head" then I suspect that Jeff has a headache right about now.
I will keep this as emotionless as possible.
1. Mr Schofield totally misrepresented his animals.
2. I had specifically asked for animals eating f/t. That didn't happen.
3. He can't pack animals.
4. He can't keep his numbers straight. Earlier in this thread, he states "I sent 7-9 snakes" (he sent six) (and then a dirty gym sock) I would suggest that he doesn't know what he sent. Also, after the first pkg. (which I never got, it was returned to him with a snake hanging out of it) I resent him all my contact info. (excerpt below) then he had the audacity to state on this thread that my phone was disconnected. Never has been, Never Will! Jeff, Too many lol's not enough plain honesty!
Thanks
David
David Scarboro Jr.
6309 Hwy 19 N.
Dahlonega, Ga. 30533
hm. 706 864-0670
cell 706 344-2706
If instant karma really does "knock you in the head" then I suspect that Jeff has a headache right about now.
Chris Kennard
Well-known member
Can you post a photo of the head of the milk snake in question?
David Scarboro
Active member
Red Milk
I let a friend with Ga. DNR have the snake to be used for educational purposes. He considered it an Eastern too, although I'm am sure that he would say himself that he is not qualified to be called an expert. I have shown the snake to several biologists in this area, some with a Dr. in front of their names. General concensus is that although at first glance it looks totally Eastern, it is probably an intergrade of some sort. I will try to get a head shot and post it. However, this whole post was about a lot more than one snake. I am ready to be done with it though. Jeff has stated that he certainly won't be sending any more snakes, and I have enough already. We had agreed "I thought" yesterday to leave this thread alone, but when I got up this morning, I saw that he had wanted to get in the last word so to speak. That is why I posted some of his emails. If you read carefully I think that the story is there.
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
I let a friend with Ga. DNR have the snake to be used for educational purposes. He considered it an Eastern too, although I'm am sure that he would say himself that he is not qualified to be called an expert. I have shown the snake to several biologists in this area, some with a Dr. in front of their names. General concensus is that although at first glance it looks totally Eastern, it is probably an intergrade of some sort. I will try to get a head shot and post it. However, this whole post was about a lot more than one snake. I am ready to be done with it though. Jeff has stated that he certainly won't be sending any more snakes, and I have enough already. We had agreed "I thought" yesterday to leave this thread alone, but when I got up this morning, I saw that he had wanted to get in the last word so to speak. That is why I posted some of his emails. If you read carefully I think that the story is there.
David Scarboro Jr.
Dahlonega, Ga.
shannon
New member
Sorry it took me so long to get here...
Guys,
I have no idea how jeffs shipping methods are cause I have never recieved a snake from him but I can tell you that the brown colored milk in the pic next to the dollar bill is from Madison County Iowa.
It was collected by my good friend kirk setser along with about four normal looking reds.Thats the reason I wanted the group.
I thought it must have been some kind of morph cause it didn't really have any color to it other than black and brown.
It does look like a eastern and thats why locale is so important.
I had that animal one other w/c and two offspring from it and sold them all to jeff last fall along with about 20 other north american milks.
I can't speak for any other things about the deal except that?
Shannon Brown
Guys,
I have no idea how jeffs shipping methods are cause I have never recieved a snake from him but I can tell you that the brown colored milk in the pic next to the dollar bill is from Madison County Iowa.
It was collected by my good friend kirk setser along with about four normal looking reds.Thats the reason I wanted the group.
I thought it must have been some kind of morph cause it didn't really have any color to it other than black and brown.
It does look like a eastern and thats why locale is so important.
I had that animal one other w/c and two offspring from it and sold them all to jeff last fall along with about 20 other north american milks.
I can't speak for any other things about the deal except that?
Shannon Brown
thomas davis
New member
well
quote:It does look like a eastern and thats why locale is so important.end quote
what does that mean shannon? easterns range into ia?
are you saying because it was collected in ia thats what makes it a red? it may be an intergrade w/a redmilk but from the pic it is clearly an eastern or intergrade but i just dont see it as a pure redmilk nor would i represent it as such in a deal, which is what jeff.s did and which is wrong IMHO
peace
thomas davis
quote:It does look like a eastern and thats why locale is so important.end quote
what does that mean shannon? easterns range into ia?
are you saying because it was collected in ia thats what makes it a red? it may be an intergrade w/a redmilk but from the pic it is clearly an eastern or intergrade but i just dont see it as a pure redmilk nor would i represent it as such in a deal, which is what jeff.s did and which is wrong IMHO
peace
thomas davis
I think you are too hung up on a name
Thomas,if you understand NA milks you understand the problems associated with them--namely intergradation and subspecification "problems".These dont easily translate into the RED MILK ON PAGE 67 of the milksnake bible.There are no hard and fast RULES,that is why honestly representing the animals is so important as far as locality--which is MORE important than arbitrary NAME.I have honestly represented the animal,so has Shannon.I know that there are pics of EASTERNS that are similar to the animal pictured,but if you want you can read Williams' book and see how arbitrary the red/eastern definition is....and how many scale counts and band counts overlap.But I suggest that this isnt as important to you as what it looks like.This I cant help you with,noone can.If you are really a NA milksnake expert you will understand this.If you are just demanding to be right because of a picture......Jeff Schofield
Thomas,if you understand NA milks you understand the problems associated with them--namely intergradation and subspecification "problems".These dont easily translate into the RED MILK ON PAGE 67 of the milksnake bible.There are no hard and fast RULES,that is why honestly representing the animals is so important as far as locality--which is MORE important than arbitrary NAME.I have honestly represented the animal,so has Shannon.I know that there are pics of EASTERNS that are similar to the animal pictured,but if you want you can read Williams' book and see how arbitrary the red/eastern definition is....and how many scale counts and band counts overlap.But I suggest that this isnt as important to you as what it looks like.This I cant help you with,noone can.If you are really a NA milksnake expert you will understand this.If you are just demanding to be right because of a picture......Jeff Schofield