JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Hey Robert, after Tosha posted that e-mail, Dr Jacobson said he didn't want any of his e-mails made public (and they were removed from B-P.net)...Which honestly makes me wonder why? Maybe he doesn't want Jen knowing what he said about her? I'm kind of glad someone saved them because I think Jen SHOULD see what he said.

Jen sent an e-mail out in the early hours of 05/01 to myself and the other individual who was supposed to get the Mojaves. She stated that she was not going to sell them and apologized to us for the entire situation. I believe she stated within the past few days that she WASN'T going to sell any of the hatchlings, it was just assumed that they were already shipped out and in a new owner's possession.

 

[SPJ]

Hey Robert, after Tosha posted that e-mail, Dr Jacobson said he didn't want any of his e-mails made public (and they were removed from B-P.net)...Which honestly makes me wonder why? Maybe he doesn't want Jen knowing what he said about her? I'm kind of glad someone saved them because I think Jen SHOULD see what he said.

Jen sent an e-mail out in the early hours of 05/01 to myself and the other individual who was supposed to get the Mojaves. She stated that she was not going to sell them and apologized to us for the entire situation. I believe she stated within the past few days that she WASN'T going to sell any of the hatchlings, it was just assumed that they were already shipped out and in a new owner's possession.

That's good to hear.
She is keeping them instead of taking a chance on selling them.
I had hoped that would be what she would do. I'm glad she is doing that. Very smart move IMO.

I told her in a PM that she should grow up the babies and monitor her collection. After a good amount of time passes with no more issues (the time it takes for the babies to become adults), I think it would be a safe bet to conclude that the virus is no longer present.

 

[Cat_72]

Copy/Paste of the email by Dr. Jacobson in the bp.net link above, just in case it gets deleted over there.

It already WAS deleted awhile ago, as it was requested by Dr. Jacobsen to have not been distributed.

So the vaccine that you gave your collection was a bird vaccine, and is not what Dr. Jacobson recommended at all. Well, at least the potentialy infected offspring that you have already sold are immune to the bird flu.

It was widely known that it was a vaccine developed for birds, that's no revelation. Many of the medicinces we use in reptiles were developed for other animals and have worked their way into use in herps, it doesn't mean that they won't work. In fact, many of the meds we use in herps are STILL only labeled for use in cattle and livestock....but they work. They have to try something, they can't just sit on their rear and do nothing. And there were 2 other vets besides Dr. Jacobson involved.....and that vaccine had nothing to do with the "bird flu".

I'm not saying that I'm agreeing with what Jen is/was doing, because I don't. Please keep that in mind. I do not believe she should have been selling animals at this point.

And also, FWIW, I see that questions have been asked about Jen selling animals that were donated to her.....as far as I am aware, from my conversations with her, she has not received any of the offered donations yet. I was one who offered an albino to replace her Maggie, and my eggs aren't even laid yet.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I told her in a PM that she should grow up the babies and monitor her collection. After a good amount of time passes with no more issues (the time it takes for the babies to become adults), I think it would be a safe bet to conclude that the virus is no longer present.

I said pretty much the same thing to her because I want that parenthesis male bad.

 

[Chandler Reptiles]

But I have many others that do understand what happened and what we now know about it, and have no problems buying my babies. That's why 3 of them are already gone

Jen this sounds so much like Wyatt would be saying...

 

[Chandler Reptiles]

Sorry typing to fast, there should be a what in there...

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Keep in mind that the info I get from Dr. Jacobsen has been coming to me through Dr. Gordon. He has never spoken to me directly or sent me any kind of paperwork -- which has been the big problem. The last thing he said was that the test for OPMV was negative -- but then in information from Dr. Brodnik, it came out that it can take up to 8 weeks for antibodies to develop, therefore nullifying any test results we got because the sample females had only been sick for 3 weeks -- therefore may not have developed antibodies at all -- and hence the negative result.

No one has purchased anything from me. The babies were reserved by 3 people, which I have since cancelled.

Dr. Gordon imported and recommended the vaccine -- as it was proven to stop OPMV in multiple cases in Europe, and thus was sent to me by a German vet who had experience with it working in this manner first hand. If you Google it, you will read it for yourself.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

In case you haven't noticed, almost every med we use on ball pythons isn't labeled for reptiles -- it is labeled for birds, cats, dogs, cattle, pigs, etc. Vets are the ones that know when and how they can be used for non-listed animals. Hence the use of Colombovac in reptiles. In my research of OPMV, I printed off multiple cases in the UK, Germany, and Australia where collections were hit by the virus and when all remaining animals were vaccinated with 0.2cc of Colombovac regardless of weight, the infection stopped cold and did not continue -- and they never had a problem after that; they are all keeping and breeding successfully years later, with no recurrances of illness. Including one very dear friend of Dan and Colette Sutherland -- who experienced it first hand as well as colleagues of hers, and she is the one who put us in touch with her vet to get the vaccine. I brought everything I printed to Dr. Gordon, who made the call to order it and use it. You do have to remember that I am working with 3 different vets -- not every single thing went through all 3 of them. Especially considering that Dr. Jacobsen never responded to e-mails, never called me, never mailed me anything, and barely responded to Dr. Gordon when pressed for information. When we submitted our samples in January, we were told we'd have results in 2 weeks. It has now been months, and we're still not getting our phone calls and e-mails returned. The only information he sent was to the Marshfield Clinic -- and he specifically told them NOT to share it with either me or Dr. Gordon -- but because they are colleagues, and because we are desperate for any kind of news, they did it anyway. That is how Dr. Gordon got the info to me.

When I got the clearance that my babies were just fine and my animals would still be breedable, it came from Dr. Gordon and Dr. Brodnik. As mentioned, Dr. Jacobsen never responds to anything. I only get info from him through Dr. Gordon, which is why I believed it was sound info.

As previously mentioned, no animals have left my collection since September of last year. I have not recieved anything donated by anyone AT ALL. You can verify this with those that offered to do so. The only new animals to have come in are animals that I purchased after being told it was just fine to do so by 2 different vets. They are in a separate room from my established collection -- which pretty much doesn't matter at this point any more. Am I selling my babies? No. Am I breeding any more? Not right now. Do I know what I'm going to do? Nope.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen this sounds so much like Wyatt would be saying...

That was also before all of this came down. I have since rescinded that opinion and course of action.

 

[Cat_72]

If Dr. Jacobsen won't hardly even reply to Dr. Gordon's emails, I wonder what makes Tosha's inquiry so special that he answered her right away? No offense intended to either Jen or Tosha, it just seems really, really, odd.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I e-mailed him yet again last night asking that very question...we'll see if I get a response. I asked why he released private client medical info to a stranger, thus allowing it to be posted on public forums, which violated the confidentiality agreement. I also asked why he was so quick to respond to a total stranger in detail but yet continues to hide information and avoid contact with Dr. Gordon and myself. Dr. Gordon's only theory is that Dr. Jacobsen is trying to reserve everything so that he gets the sole credit for this research. Other than that, he can't think of a single viable reason for his withholding of information from us and non-response to e-mails and phone calls.

 

[Cat_72]

Exactly, Jen. As well-known as the man is, I find it hard to understand why he would take the risk to release confidential information to someone not even remotely involved.

I realize that there can often be "ego" involved regarding colleagues....but the rest of it makes no sense.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

This is an Australian forum discussing OPMV -- I have copied and pasted a few posts that are related to what I have been saying:

( http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-herps/ophidian-paramyxovirus-information-44092/page-3 )

HerpDoc
Regular Member Join Date: Dec-06
Location: Melbourne
Age: 27
Posts: 29

Biopsies on live animals may be useful but hard to achieve. Best area is lung tissue and this is technically difficult in snakes and obviously would result in a fair amount of trauma. Other issues with biopsy are that the virus maybe atypical in its behaviour, ie living in other tissue and may be missed by biopsy. In the United States can be diagnosed anti-mortem with a haemagglutintaion inhibition test that looks for antibodies. This however is not an indication of active infection but only means expose to the virus has occurred and a rise in antibody titre is required for diagnosis of active infection. Snakes take about 8 weeks to seroconvert so if they are tested during this time they may be falsely identified as negative.
As far as transmission is concerned the main mode is considered to be airbone with contaminated utensils and cage furniture also playing a significant role so the key to prevention is HYGIENE. Cant stress this enough, this also includes good quarantine protocols and controlling ectoparasites.

__________________
Dr Franciscus Scheelings BVSc
Veterinary Resident Healesville Sanctuary
Special Interest Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery

The bolded sentence is exactly why the negative test result from Dr. Jacobsen needs to be thrown out and another test done on new samples from the two snakes that were sick longer and survived. The females used were only sick for 3 weeks therefore most likely had no antibody development, thus the negative result.

adbacus
Regular Member Join Date: Jul-06
Location: Albury
Age: 31
Posts: 850

Quote:
Originally Posted by xycom
Have any cases been found in wild specimens?
Would a good herp vet be able to organise tests on suspected animals?

1. Depending on who you talk to, the theorists out there believe that the disease originiated in Australia. I prefer to believe in conventional thinking that it was an introduced disease. I have not seen any papers or documents out there that suggest that it has managed to get out in the wild. There have been no studies I know of out there to suggest that it is out there. However, there has been a huge decline in the presence of herps and Australian Native Flora and fauna within the last 30 odd years.

2. Definitive tests on animals at this point in time involve in killing the animal. The only reliable method I have been told of diagnosis is through tissue histology. I have suggested to a few people that modified ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immuno Sorbed Assay) or PCR (polymerase Chain Reaction) tests may be beneficial and would not necessarily kill the animal. The issue with this is that the tests require specific keyed DNA for the causative agents which cause IBD and OPMV. The dna viral strands themselves require to be isolated. At this point, the actual identification of key strands themselves are not 100% and more research needs to be done.

I am still waiting for anyone who might be able to give more information on the use of Colombovac and it's efficacy and viability as it is an APMV (Avian Paramyxovirus) Vaccine.

__________________
Waiting here. Sitting in the Dark, Waiting for the Lynch Mobs and Witch Hunters.

Considering that reptiles and birds are very closely related, this is why people chose to try the vaccine in reptile OPMV cases in Europe.

This is a quote from another related website, where we got much of our info from:

( http://www.smuggled.com/OPMV17.htm )

A hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) assay has been developed to measure antibody produced against OPMV (Jacobson et al., 1981), however in experiments, some snakes produced no antibodies some weeks after infection and others actually died before any antibodies appeared. Hence a negative HI assay cannot be taken to exclude the possibility an OPMV infection. It appears that in some snakes OPMV antibodies form about 8 weeks after infection.

This is the article about the successful use of Colombovac in stopping OPMV -- I e-mailed John months ago when we first started suspecting this virus, and he confirmed that his collection is still doing well and that he has not had an outbreak since:

( http://sidewinder78.tripod.com/TheSidewinderRanch/id31.html )

VIRUS INFECTION IN MY SNAKE COLLECTION
John Bakker

In October 1988 I bought a number of young snakes from a breeder at a snake show. Those were the only snakes I bought that day, other than that I inspected snakes for several people who wanted to buy them. I also sexed a few snakes by means of probing. After I got home I housed the young snakes separately in small boxes. All went well the first few months. The snakes ate well and grew rapidly, but early February 1989 I found a snake (Elaphe Helena) dead that I have had for a number of years.
In a period of about twelve hours this snake lost a lot of weight en was severely dehydrated. In the next two days four more snakes died. According to the autopsy report all the snakes died of pneumonia (a lot of mucus in the lungs). All the snakes were treated as a precautionary measure, but after a few days I found six snakes dead and six more the day after that. All the snakes that died were good eaters, were healthy but all died within a twelve hour period. They all lost a lot of weight all were dehydrated. All the snakes showed a peculiar behavior before they died. They appeared to be very edgy and aggressive and moved very fast within their enclosures. I took a snake to an animal hospital in Utrecht where Marja Kik examined it and a PARAMIXOS virus was found in the snakes brain. This virus is similar to the virus found in pigeons and chickens. I was advised to keep all my snakes in separate enclosures and to disinfect all materials, used for treatment, and myself with FORMALINE 4% after every visit to my snake room. Now all I could do was wait. According to the hospital there was no known treatment or medicine. Professor Zwart was in the U.S.A at this time attending a congress about this virus, so I could not consult with him about a possible treatment. In the next two weeks a large number of snakes died so I decided to consult Walter Getreuer of SERPO-ZOO in Delft. I then decided to inject the remainder of my snakes with COLOMBOVAC, 0.2 cc for each snake despite its size and weight. This medicine has been used by my father in the pigeon sport as a preventive treatment for young pigeons for many years. The price of one injection at that time was about HFL 1,35. After a week all my snakes looked and behaved normal and not a single snake died. In total I had lost 40 snakes to this virus. By September 1989 all my snakes were in perfect condition. To this day I still dont know who was responsible for bringing infected snakes to the show. I later heard that a few other snake keepers were hit by this virus. Snakes most perceptive to this virus are Lampropeltis, Boa, Python, Vipera, Crotalus and Asian Elaphe species. This virus hardly ever infects North American Elaphe species. I have no scientific proof that my treatment cured the snakes, but you dont have much choice when all your snakes are dying on you. Youll try anything to save your snakes and in my case it seemed to have worked. In the years after this period I have been approached by a number of snake keepers with the same problem (also through SERPO-ZOO). I advised them all to treat their snakes with COLOMBOVAC and I have had nothing but positive response. Even now in 2001 I have been asked to advise on a number of cases. Because new cases keep popping up in the literature (especially in the USA) about this virus in rattlesnake species, keeping this treatment in mind may be a good thing.

John Bakker

 

[romad119]

Dr. Gordon's only theory is that Dr. Jacobsen is trying to reserve everything so that he gets the sole credit for this research.

My train of thought led me there too.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I also wanted to repeat this YET AGAIN because some people just cannot seem to comprehend it, and are now apparently spreading these lies to the vet working on my research:

I HAVE NOT SOLD, TRADED, ADOPTED OUT, OR GIVEN AWAY A SINGLE ANIMAL SINCE SEPTEMBER 2007, BEFORE THE INFECTED CARRIER FROM WYATT EVER ARRIVED IN MY COLLECTION. NOTHING HAS LEFT MY POSESSION.

ALL 5 BABIES FROM THE MOJAVE CLUTCH ARE STILL HERE, THEY HAD ONLY BEEN RESERVED, NOT FULLY PURCHASED. I HAVE SINCE CANCELLED THESE RESERVATIONS.

I HAVE NOT RECIEVED A SINGLE DONATED ANIMAL FROM ANYONE WHATSOEVER, AND THEREFORE HAVE NOT SOLD, TRADED, ADOPTED OUT, OR GIVEN AWAY ANY DONATED ANIMALS.

In regard to what Dr. Jacobsen mentioned about not having evidence that my animals have OPMV -- by their symptoms and necropsy results compared to his own exact research and description of the virus, we sure do. He only has tissue samples in front of him that he did an unreliable test on -- he didn't witness the stages of disease they went through nor the treatments we tried and failed with. He also mentioned that he has no evidence that they have the other "new" virus he discussed either, so that one isn't any more positive.

The last time he spoke directly to me was many months ago -- back when this all first began and before he had ever recieved a single dead body or sample from us. He did mention there were other things that could have caused the lesions, but that was only a small fraction of what was discovered in the necropsies and histopathy, and he was only responding to what I had told him based on all I had found out by that time. Back then, he didn't advise using the vaccine -- because he had never heard of it or its successful uses in Europe, and didn't fully understand the whole picture of what was happening. Since he recieved the samples and began work on my case, he has not contacted me or spoken to me whatsoever. I was recieving all of my information from Dr. Gordon, which is where I got the information that the babies would be unaffected and that my adults could still be used for breeding. I had trusted that he was in communication with Dr. Jacobsen as he was the one sending the bodies/samples/paperwork to him. Until recently, I hadn't known that Dr. Jacobsen was not responding and withholding information.

 

[April Homich]

I've been following this whole thing for a while, and just wanted to add my $0.02.

Out of the vets listed, Dr. Jacobson seems to be, far above and beyond, the most qualified in the area of reptile diseases and research. That being said, if there is ANY possibility of this being something new, you cannot rely on research done on a different disease (OPMV) to determine the course that this will take. You won't know how long it remains infectious in the environment, if and how long snakes can be carriers, mode of transmission, etc. Also, why would you think he would be withholding information on a known disease, if that's what this is? It's possible that he doesn't want to get brought into this whole internet discussion, or maybe he disagrees with the actions and recommendations of your current vet and wants to distance himself from the situation. Either way, people have brought up reasonable options. Just keep your collection (nothing coming in or leaving) and reevaluate in a few years.

 

[shrap]

I also wanted to repeat this YET AGAIN because some people just cannot seem to comprehend it, and are now apparently spreading these lies to the vet working on my research:

Hey Jen,

I just wanted to give you some support and say how truly sorry I am that you are still having to deal with this where your animals are concerned. As before, my heart truly goes out to you. I know this has to be very hard.

As far as the idiot humans who cant seem to stay out of your business, may they all go play in heavy traffic. Or at least go play russian roulette with a semi automatic. Bunch of ass clowns hiding behind their keyboards sticking their noses where it dont belong. Cowards I say. Dont let them get you down, Jen. They aint worth your time.

 

[dprince]

Jen, I don't know you but I wanted to tell you that I am so sorry for your troubles with your collection. I wanted to say THANK YOU for your honesty and willingness to share about such a hard, delicate subject. It is a breath of fresh air in this often secretive hobby/business. May this year be much better for you.

 

[BalloonzForU]

I HAVE NOT SOLD, TRADED, ADOPTED OUT, OR GIVEN AWAY A SINGLE ANIMAL SINCE SEPTEMBER 2007, BEFORE THE INFECTED CARRIER FROM WYATT EVER ARRIVED IN MY COLLECTION. NOTHING HAS LEFT MY POSESSION.

Nope.... NOT NOW!!! You had three sold and your only reason for not completeing the sale is because you got called out on it.

 

[shrap]

Speaking of ass clowns.......