JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

[Serafim]

Maybe he just meant since ventilation was involved lol.

 

[David Reid]

My breeder Ghost has just developed Atheletes foot....

 

[critical bill]

Maybe he just meant since ventilation was involved lol.

Or maybe..he just doesn't know when to STFU.

Seems he's on a roll with that lately.

 

[dsirkle]

Is this supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not exactly sure how it's relevant.

Yes. It was. Not a very good one evidently. I apologize if I offended your sensibilities.

 

[dsirkle]

Maybe he just meant since ventilation was involved lol.

That was it.

 

[Dr Owens]

That was it.

I understand that you were joking, but I also thought that you might be referring to something being transmitted in a ventilation system. Yes, legionella has been known to be transmitted through ventilation systems. However, it is a gram negative bacterium (not a virus), and it is not transmitted from person to person, rather it is transmitted by mist droplet from an infected source (a water source...not an infected individual). Also, legionella responds to appropriate antibiotic therapy.

In other words, it is completely irrelevant to this conversation as a proposed etiology of transmission.

 

[shrap]

You clearly don't know anything about the history of the world HIV/AIDS pandemic. In this country, where there is the best funding for treatment, AIDS has gone from an acute disease that kills fairly quickly, to a chronic manageable disease in which most victims can live pretty much average life spans as long as they maintain adequate treatment. As for a cure? Please name me one viral disease that has been cured. You can't, because there aren't any.

As for the people (mainly Jen) talking about a cure for this apparent viral disease...it will NEVER be cured. Why? Because, first, (as previously stated) there has never been a viral disease that has been cured. Second, there will never be enough money invested to adequately test for any kind of treatment. To think that everyone can "pitch in" a few dollars in order to make a difference is naive at best. The only thing that might be discovered is the causative agent; however, that won't cure anything...it will only attach a name to the disease process. The ONLY cure is prevention... I.E. QUARANTINE.

Having said that, I'm not buying this whole "separate ventilation system" requirement for an adequate quarantine. As someone who knows a few things about the transmission of various viruses, I don't think for a second that this transmission was through any part of the ventilation system. It just doesn't make sense. For one thing, viruses don't just randomly float through the air infecting whatever they come in contact with. They are usually spread by respiratory droplet (hence the term "airborne") or through direct contact with an infected individual. Since snakes don't have a true cough reflex (which propels the respiratory droplets in human illness), the likelihood of them transmitting a virus by an airborne vector (respiratory droplet) is slim at best, and extremely unlikely if the two animals are in separate rooms.

The transmission had to be through contact by Jen. I don't care what she says about her "sterile procedures," I know that she wasn't practicing strict quarantine precautions due to the fact that she has already admitted to the fact that she made a number of mistakes in her procedures (however, I'm too lazy to go back and dig out the exact quotes). If someone wants to be totally sure that they're not transmitting something, then they need to wear rubber gloves (and preferably clothes covers, i.e. a disposable gown, etc.) when handling any animals in quarantine. They then need to dispose of the gloves within the quarantine room, and remove the gown (and dispose of it in the quarantine room), or change clothes before going into their main facility...but more importantly, there is no substitute for good hand washing! Infection control specialists in hospitals have shown this statistically over and over again.

Wyatt sold Jen a sick snake, and Jen didn't quarantine it properly...and we've all seen the end result. The problem was not some new "super virus," the problem was the lack of proper quarantine...and the ventilation system had nothing to do with it...regardless of what Jen claims.

My main point in this post is this... The extremes of airborne precautions that have been proposed in this thread are ridiculous. They don't follow known methods of disease transmission in reptiles, and quite frankly there are only a few human diseases that they would even be applicable to (primarily TB which isn't even a virus). I am concerned that people are "demonizing" this new "scary, mystery virus" to the point that they're no longer paying attention to the facts surrounding viral disease transmission.

Thanks for reading.

Thank you Jay!! I was hoping you would chime in on this.

 

[LauraB]

Having said that, I'm not buying this whole "separate ventilation system" requirement for an adequate quarantine. As someone who knows a few things about the transmission of various viruses, I don't think for a second that this transmission was through any part of the ventilation system. It just doesn't make sense. For one thing, viruses don't just randomly float through the air infecting whatever they come in contact with. They are usually spread by respiratory droplet (hence the term "airborne") or through direct contact with an infected individual. Since snakes don't have a true cough reflex (which propels the respiratory droplets in human illness), the likelihood of them transmitting a virus by an airborne vector (respiratory droplet) is slim at best, and extremely unlikely if the two animals are in separate rooms.

And yet another loud and clear thank you, Dr. Ownens! The first bit of common sense and reality check I've seen since the beginning of this thread, and frankly I didn't buy it from the start. I've kept my big mouth shut for the duration of this thread because I had no accolades to hand out, no "good guys" or "atta girl" shouts to give, no donations to willingly pass out, no particular ribbons to pin.
I hate that animals had to suffer and die at the hands of a keeper and I'm sorry that Jen had to exterminate her entire collection, racks, equipment, etc.

However ... who amasses such an impressive, large collection in such a relatively short time, houses (quarantines) them in two rooms, rises to the "top", contracts to build an expensive website and is a suddenly a "breeder"? (someone else expressed it beautifully ..Cheryl maybe?) All of this in less than what ... 3 years?
I'm sorry, but it seems a classic case of over-enthusiasm, putting the cart before the horse, spending a wheelbarrow of $ before the eggs actually hatch and then looking for a bail-out after it all comes crashing.
I've been raising herps (and mammals) for years, many many more than 3; carefully planning purchases and carefully planning housing, husbandry needs and space requirements. Household expenses, bills and family always come first!
And when I've screwed up, never entered into financial commitments I could not meet or solicited strangers and aquaintences to bail me out. Usually, the broken pieces were my own fault to begin with. And yes, animals have passed in my care during my years of learning. (That stated, I realize Jen never actually "solicitated" bail-outs; she only expounded on her personal siutation and others did make offers of new animals... which offers apparently she did not acknowledge privately but then returned here to publicly request those donors send their animals elsewhere to clear her financial obligations)

Again, I'm sorry that what is claimed to be one snake purchase wiped out an entire collection ... mostly sorry for the animals, although I realize that had to be absolutely devistating for Jen, given that she was counting on her collection to be a livelihood, and that she did care about the snakes.
What has to be remembered (and has already been pointed out) is that she would NOT have culled her collection and equipment had it not been for this thread. She only did so after being reprimanded and reminded that it was necessary in order to contain whatever virus permiated her home and animals ... and frankly, this idea of a new "super virus", to me is absurd. It ranks up there with the Sasquatch carcass those guys in my neck of the woods claimed they found last week.

 

[tex959]

You clearly don't know anything about the history of the world HIV/AIDS pandemic. In this country, where there is the best funding for treatment, AIDS has gone from an acute disease that kills fairly quickly, to a chronic manageable disease in which most victims can live pretty much average life spans as long as they maintain adequate treatment. As for a cure? Please name me one viral disease that has been cured. You can't, because there aren't any.

I agree with you 100% on this statement. You obviously know much more about viral diseases than I and I would never atempt to debate you on your points.. But I'm having difficulty understanding where I disagree with you on my points. I do believe that there is a very effective treatment that can provide those infected with HIV/AIDS a reasonable quality of life which was not the case many years ago.. basically what you've said I agree with.. I was just pointing out the fact that there was no cure after all the funding and research, as you've pointed out. I can't name any viral diseases that have been "cured". Did I give the impression that I could? Maybe what I wrote wasn't clear or well written and caused some confusion. Maybe I used some bad examples to make my point. Either way this is off the subject and maybe we can move on?

As for the people (mainly Jen) talking about a cure for this apparent viral disease...it will NEVER be cured. Why? Because, first, (as previously stated) there has never been a viral disease that has been cured. Second, there will never be enough money invested to adequately test for any kind of treatment. To think that everyone can "pitch in" a few dollars in order to make a difference is naive at best. The only thing that might be discovered is the causative agent; however, that won't cure anything...it will only attach a name to the disease process. The ONLY cure is prevention... I.E. QUARANTINE.

exactly !! This is worth repeating prevention is the only cure, Which is why I don't feel the need to donate to Dr. J's cause.. but do feel the need to research any preventative measures writen by Dr. J and other good vets on the subject of disease prevention in reptiles.... In turn I will try to educate a few around me that might not know the importance of quarantine/hygine procedures. Which was basically the whole point in what I posted in the first place. Doesn't it seem like we agree on these points? Basically I don't seen an argument from your post to mine On this subject. I wanted to take a few moments with my post in this thread to focus on where we can go from here and you've taken that to the next level , so thanks for the great info.


everything else you've written about as far as possible methods and unlikely methods of transmission makes a lot of sense.

 

[Cat_72]

Having said that, I'm not buying this whole "separate ventilation system" requirement for an adequate quarantine. As someone who knows a few things about the transmission of various viruses, I don't think for a second that this transmission was through any part of the ventilation system. It just doesn't make sense. For one thing, viruses don't just randomly float through the air infecting whatever they come in contact with. They are usually spread by respiratory droplet (hence the term "airborne") or through direct contact with an infected individual. Since snakes don't have a true cough reflex (which propels the respiratory droplets in human illness), the likelihood of them transmitting a virus by an airborne vector (respiratory droplet) is slim at best, and extremely unlikely if the two animals are in separate rooms.

Thank you for clarifying that, Jay....that what what I was having trouble figuring out, why I couldn't wrap my head around Seamus's ventilation system comments.

 

[Lucille]

I do believe that there is a very effective treatment that can provide those infected with HIV/AIDS a reasonable quality of life which was not the case many years ago.. basically what you've said I agree with.. I was just pointing out the fact that there was no cure after all the funding and research, as you've pointed out. :

The funding and research is what provided to those infected with HIV a longer and better quality life.
I think funding for research is money well spent. I hope that quarantine will help prevent the spread of any snake viral disease but for the possibility that some breeder/vendor will knowingly or unknowingly send out infected critters, the more that is know about the virus, the more effective efforts to contain and manage any outbreak may be.

 

[shrap]

Thank you for clarifying that, Jay....that what what I was having trouble figuring out, why I couldn't wrap my head around Seamus's ventilation system comments.

Well there is a lot that Seamus says that folks cant wrap their head around. It is getting more common all the time.

 

[tex959]

The funding and research is what provided to those infected with HIV a longer and better quality life.
I think funding for research is money well spent. I hope that quarantine will help prevent the spread of any snake viral disease but for the possibility that some breeder/vendor will knowingly or unknowingly send out infected critters, the more that is know about the virus, the more effective efforts to contain and manage any outbreak may be.

Point taken.. thanks for the clarification.

 

[deborahbroadus]

You clearly don't know anything about the history of the world HIV/AIDS pandemic. In this country, where there is the best funding for treatment, AIDS has gone from an acute disease that kills fairly quickly, to a chronic manageable disease in which most victims can live pretty much average life spans as long as they maintain adequate treatment. As for a cure? Please name me one viral disease that has been cured. You can't, because there aren't any.

As for the people (mainly Jen) talking about a cure for this apparent viral disease...it will NEVER be cured. Why? Because, first, (as previously stated) there has never been a viral disease that has been cured. Second, there will never be enough money invested to adequately test for any kind of treatment. To think that everyone can "pitch in" a few dollars in order to make a difference is naive at best. The only thing that might be discovered is the causative agent; however, that won't cure anything...it will only attach a name to the disease process. The ONLY cure is prevention... I.E. QUARANTINE.

Having said that, I'm not buying this whole "separate ventilation system" requirement for an adequate quarantine. As someone who knows a few things about the transmission of various viruses, I don't think for a second that this transmission was through any part of the ventilation system. It just doesn't make sense. For one thing, viruses don't just randomly float through the air infecting whatever they come in contact with. They are usually spread by respiratory droplet (hence the term "airborne") or through direct contact with an infected individual. Since snakes don't have a true cough reflex (which propels the respiratory droplets in human illness), the likelihood of them transmitting a virus by an airborne vector (respiratory droplet) is slim at best, and extremely unlikely if the two animals are in separate rooms.
The transmission had to be through contact by Jen. I don't care what she says about her "sterile procedures," I know that she wasn't practicing strict quarantine precautions due to the fact that she has already admitted to the fact that she made a number of mistakes in her procedures (however, I'm too lazy to go back and dig out the exact quotes). If someone wants to be totally sure that they're not transmitting something, then they need to wear rubber gloves (and preferably clothes covers, i.e. a disposable gown, etc.) when handling any animals in quarantine. They then need to dispose of the gloves within the quarantine room, and remove the gown (and dispose of it in the quarantine room), or change clothes before going into their main facility...but more importantly, there is no substitute for good hand washing! Infection control specialists in hospitals have shown this statistically over and over again.

Wyatt sold Jen a sick snake, and Jen didn't quarantine it properly...and we've all seen the end result. The problem was not some new "super virus," the problem was the lack of proper quarantine...and the ventilation system had nothing to do with it...regardless of what Jen claims.

My main point in this post is this... The extremes of airborne precautions that have been proposed in this thread are ridiculous. They don't follow known methods of disease transmission in reptiles, and quite frankly there are only a few human diseases that they would even be applicable to (primarily TB which isn't even a virus). I am concerned that people are "demonizing" this new "scary, mystery virus" to the point that they're no longer paying attention to the facts surrounding viral disease transmission.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for clearing up a few (lot) of questions that were bothering me about the whole saga.

One more question : Do snakes sneeze? A google search brings up a few answers, and all of them that I have read said "Yes." (not sure of the reliablity of the sources, though) While you mention that snakes don't have a "true" cough reflex, aren't they able to expel breath and hiss? In these incidents of hissing or expelling breath, how can we be sure that no droplets are in these "explusions" (for lack of a better word).

If there are droplets in these explusions can they then be spread by the ventilation system? I know that for humans cold germs can travel on expelled (sneezing, coughing) air for quite a bit of space, and they can be left on railings, surfaces to be picked up by unsuspecting victims later thought hand contact.

Thanks!

*I don't have a shared ventilation system..my house is old, I have radiators, and I don't have a clue how this is spread, so I am just covering all the bases.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Sorry!! Thought = through

 

[reagorfu]

Thanks for clearing up a few (lot) of questions that were bothering me about the whole saga.

One more question : Do snakes sneeze? A google search brings up a few answers, and all of them that I have read said "Yes." (not sure of the reliablity of the sources, though) While you mention that snakes don't have a "true" cough reflex, aren't they able to expel breath and hiss? In these incidents of hissing or expelling breath, how can we be sure that no droplets are in these "explusions" (for lack of a better word).

If there are droplets in these explusions can they then be spread by the ventilation system? I know that for humans cold germs can travel on expelled (sneezing, coughing) air for quite a bit of space, and they can be left on railings, surfaces to be picked up by unsuspecting victims later thought hand contact.

Thanks!

*I don't have a shared ventilation system..my house is old, I have radiators, and I don't have a clue how this is spread, so I am just covering all the bases.

If things worked like that every soldier and contractor that went over to Afghanistan would have TB. I think like 1 out of 4 of the HCNs have TB there, and it is very contagious. Almost every soldier and contractor works within closed quarters or close proximity to the HCNs and most don't come back sick.

I think that as long as proper husbandry practices are in use and strict quarantine is implemented there will be no problem. After all, that is how we got rid of most of those types of diseases in the states. Like the good Dr. said, hand washing goes a long way.

 

[RJK890]

Quote Laura:
I hate that animals had to suffer and die at the hands of a keeper and I'm sorry that Jen had to exterminate her entire collection, racks, equipment, etc.

Just to clear things up here, Jen did not exterminate her entire collection, and she sold her racks, and etc.
She killed a large number of animals which may or may not have been infected.
I think that she should have frozen ALL of the animals at her house(even Tommys G-Stripe,) cleaned her racks, and etc. with bleach and then burned it all together and sent it to the landfill.
Not that she is obligated to do what I feel she should have, but why kill all of those other animals and keep one, two, or three alive? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Seems like they had to suffer and die at the hands of a keeper in vain. If one or two are going to be kept alive, why not 40?

I understand that the paranoid thinking, or Fear of this being the next IBD or super virus may seem crazy to the good Doc and a few of the others that know, or think they know everything about the transmission of any virus. I am sure you can see how we uneducated folk who did not go to medical school for almost a decade may be concerned, and maybe even more than we should be. I do agree that Quarantine is the best defense, and no quarantine standard should be considered too high. Even separate ventilation systems. I did not see any of "y'all in the know" bidding on her rack, helix, or animals she was offering for sale.
Seriously, would you want animals that were being shipped to your house riding in a truck or sitting in a hub with Tommys G-Stripe, the Helix, or the water bowls and hide boxes she was shipping?

 

[LakesideBoas]

Actually, and I am NOT picking on you, but if we think like that then the damage is already done since the sick animal was SHIPPed to Jen in the first place...so in that respect, by your reasoning, the carrier is already contaminated...

 

[Dr Owens]

One more question : Do snakes sneeze? A google search brings up a few answers, and all of them that I have read said "Yes." (not sure of the reliablity of the sources, though) While you mention that snakes don't have a "true" cough reflex, aren't they able to expel breath and hiss? In these incidents of hissing or expelling breath, how can we be sure that no droplets are in these "explusions" (for lack of a better word).

When I said that snakes don't have a "true cough reflex," I was comparing them to humans who do have a very distinct cough reflex. Humans are able to produce high velocity respiratory droplets by coughing. In fact, they can expel respiratory droplets in excess of 60 mph. However, these respiratory droplets (depending on their size) don't travel all that far once being expelled. The odds of them traveling through a ventilation system (through the air return system, then traveling through the central system, and then back out through the air delivery system) and into another room, is between slim and none. Even IF a respiratory droplet were to make it to another part of the house, then the odds of it being in sufficient quantity to infect another individual, is even more remote.

By comparison, snakes can forcefully expel air. However, they do so at a MUCH lower velocity than a human can. Primarily, because they do not increase intrathoracic pressure behind a closed glottis prior to expulsion, rather they force air through an open glottis. This lower velocity expulsion will result in much larger respiratory particles being expelled...which means that they can hardly travel very far at all. Add to this the fact that the respiratory droplet has to escape the cage (which is no small feat in and of itself) before it can travel through the room, into the vent, through the return air system, through the central distribution system, through the return air system, into another room... Well, I think that you can see my point.

If there are droplets in these explusions can they then be spread by the ventilation system?

See above.

I know that for humans cold germs can travel on expelled (sneezing, coughing) air for quite a bit of space, and they can be left on railings, surfaces to be picked up by unsuspecting victims later thought hand contact.

That's exactly my point. Surface contamination can be spread by unwashed hands. Regardless of whether it's being spread to you, or whether you're spreading contamination from one animal to another.

(btw...I am typing this while sitting in a boring continuing medical education lecture, so I apologize if my answers and/or trains of thought aren't entirely thorough.)

 

[RJK890]

Quote Lakeside Reptiles:
Actually, and I am NOT picking on you, but if we think like that then the damage is already done since the sick animal was SHIPPed to Jen in the first place...so in that respect, by your reasoning, the carrier is already contaminated...

Not at all. I am not talking about the damage that has already been done. I understand that Wyatt shipped the animals that supposedly introduced this virus to Jen a long time ago. Jen intended on shipping Tommy his G-Stripe in the near future. I was asking if you or anybody else who does not feel like the paranoia and fear are warranted would like animals that were being shipped to you or them riding in a truck or sitting in a hub with the G-Stripe, Helix, water bowls, or hide boxes Jen intended on, or has been shipping. That was a serious question about the risk of transmission, and I am interested in a more informed answer from Dr. J, or someone as smart as him.
I am sure many animals, racks, water bowls/hides, etc. that have been exposed to IBD and other infectious diseases have been shipped by every shipping company available. I live in east central Florida and have driven as far south as Miami, and North as Alabama to avoid having animals shipped to me. Mainly because I feel it is less stressful on the animal, but also to avoid the many risks involved. I do have some animals that are being shipped to me and was concerned enough to want to make sure they were not shipped with the same shipping company on or around the date Jen was planning on shipping Tommy his animal.
The fact that others have done it does not mean that the damage has been done and give people wanting to ship potentially infected animals and supplies a green light.
Thanks for not picking on me .