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JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

That's very clear and detailed. Thanks so much.

I wasn't thinking only of ventilation systems..but also of close proximity situations such as: if a diseased snake was in the rack right next to a healthy snake, and sneezed, by the above reasoning, the only way that the healthy snake would get sick is if proper quarantine procedures were not followed, because there is actually NO airborne disease as we understand it (in snakes because they don't have true coughs and sneezes)?

This also applies to IBD? This would mean (I mean this is staggering to me) that those who had lost collections possibly did so, not because IBD is so easy to "float" on the air, but because quarantine measures were not followed?

(this is not off topic, I am really trying to understand what happened to Jen. I think a lot of us want to know how a virus that's thought to be airborne (and can't be borne on the air), can wipe out collections.
 
RJK890 said:
I understand that the paranoid thinking, or Fear of this being the next IBD or super virus may seem crazy to the good Doc and a few of the others that know, or think they know everything about the transmission of any virus. I am sure you can see how we uneducated folk who did not go to medical school for almost a decade may be concerned, and maybe even more than we should be.
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Of course I understand the fear. Fear of the unknown can indeed be quite frightening. Hence my previous posts. It is my hope that with a little education the fear of the unknown will be alleviated.


I do agree that Quarantine is the best defense, and no quarantine standard should be considered too high.
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I agree with that statement for the most part. However...

Even separate ventilation systems.
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I disagree with this. I don't think that someone needs to build themselves a Level 3 Biosafety facility in order to properly quarantine their animals. If you've got the time, and the money, then knock yourself out! However, I don't suspect that anyone here actually does. ;)


I did not see any of "y'all in the know" bidding on her rack, helix, or animals she was offering for sale.
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Uhhhh...yeah. You're right. I have no need for any of her equipment. I have very nice equipment already...and I don't have to worry about sterilizing any of it.

Oh yeah...don't forget that she threw it all away. That might make it kind of hard to start a bidding war on her used equipment. :rolleyes:

Seriously, would you want animals that were being shipped to your house riding in a truck or sitting in a hub with Tommys G-Stripe, the Helix, or the water bowls and hide boxes she was shipping?
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Honestly, I don't think that I would think twice about it. In fact, I'm confident enough in this statement that I'll say this...

If Jen wants to send me the two remaining animals, I will quarantine them utilizing appropriate quarantine procedure...and without a separate facility or a separate ventilation system. I will keep them for a year, and if they remain healthy, I will ship them back to her. However, if they begin to show symptoms, I will go ahead and put them down (because it's the right thing to do).

That's right...I'm confident enough in what I'm saying that I will put my entire collection on the line to prove it. That's hundreds animals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars (although the current market might have affected the numbers a bit). I know that I know what I'm talking about. ;)
 
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If I remember correctly the human male can project droplets through coughing or sneezing for something like 8-10 feet -- I'm still trying to figure out how a snake that showed no sign of RI - no coughing, no wheezing and bubbling somehow managed to transmit the virus out of it's tub - across the room and into another tub which incubated and infected the other snake to the point that it was visibly sick in less than 24 hours.
:shrug01:
 
ToshaMc said:
If I remember correctly the human male can project droplets through coughing or sneezing for something like 8-10 feet -- I'm still trying to figure out how a snake that showed no sign of RI - no coughing, no wheezing and bubbling somehow managed to transmit the virus out of it's tub - across the room and into another tub which incubated and infected the other snake to the point that it was visibly sick in less than 24 hours.
:shrug01:
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That's exactly what I am trying to wrap my mind around. How is the virus shedding?
 
ToshaMc said:
If I remember correctly the human male can project droplets through coughing or sneezing for something like 8-10 feet -- I'm still trying to figure out how a snake that showed no sign of RI - no coughing, no wheezing and bubbling somehow managed to transmit the virus out of it's tub - across the room and into another tub which incubated and infected the other snake to the point that it was visibly sick in less than 24 hours.
:shrug01:
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I have had my own theory, or two, on that. From the very beginning. But have not had any evidence to support it so there was no point in posting pure speculation.
 
Thanks for taking my comment "tongue-in-cheek" like it was meant to be, Robert.

Since the airborn transmission vector is somewhat limited in reptiles (thanks Jay for the lessons!) the only other ways the virus could have been transmitted is via direct contact of a mucous or fecal secretion (if this virus is even shed in the feces) carried by the owner on their clothing or the tools used to clean or feed or the animals came in direct contact with each other at some point, assuming that normal hand washing procedures or gloves were used.

It all boils down to what Jen learned the hard way and we all have been on the same page with: You can not practice proper quarantine procedures with new animals being in the same room as an established collection.
I don't think panic is warranted just be really vigilant quarantining new acquisitions once they are in your possesion and studiously practice proper hygiene and you should be fine.
 
You know, while we're on the subject, let me bring up another rule of quarantine that I've never seen mentioned anywhere...

It's not uncommon for people to pay more attention to the new acquisitions in their collection simply due to the fact that the new animals are "new and exciting." This excitement can often work against good quarantine procedure. This occurs primarily because when they're going to perform routine maintenance, they tend to go to their "favorite" animals first. Also, when they're showing off their animals to a friend, they tend to go to these same animals first. However, this is exactly backwards of what they should be doing.

If you're performing routine maintenance on your animals, feeding them, or even just looking at them, then you need to go to the animals in quarantine LAST. Then, when you're done messing with the animals in quarantine, you can wash up, change clothes, etc. when you're finished. In fact, if you do it right, then you probably won't even have to go near your main collection until the next day, and by then you'll probably have showered as well (hopefully ;) ).

This one simple procedural observation will do more to protect your main collection from the animals that you might have in quarantine than almost any other (except maybe hand washing).

I know that this sounds like complete common sense, but I have never seen anyone do it this way. Every time I have been touring someone else's collection, they always go to their newest animals first in order to show them off...it's human nature, but it's the exact opposite of what should be done if you want to maintain good quarantine precautions.


Hopefully, someone will find that useful... :)
 
I always do things that way. It makes it easier as my main collection is in the main part of my house and the quarantine room is in the basement, but it still should be the way things are done, that way you know your not carrying cooties around to your established animals.

I used to change in the garage and throw my scrubs right in the washer there when I got home from work so I didn't bring any gifts to my pets.

Not saying it is so here, but I have noticed that common sense is sometimes uncommon...:)
 
I know this is off the Jen topic, but as long as we're on the subject of quarantine....
Of the people that use gloves, how many change them between animals?

(I had a discussion along this general topic line not too long ago, and people seemed surprised that I said I changed gloves between quarantine animals.)
 
As Dr. Owens pointed out, the way I quarantine is to have new animals in a separate room (next to my main room), with their own food feeding tubs, and I feed/clean n00bs on different days than my main collection to make sure I don't forget to wash my hands. And feeding on different days also ensures I have a different set of clothes on to avoid carrying anything that way, although with a bunch of cornsnakes there's really no reason for that level of precaution (I don't know of any hideous cornsnake diseases). But I like to think I'm practicing good technique for patients. XD

(And yes, for what it's worth, I would be happy to have had some of Jen's snakes or racks, except for the part where I'm not into balls, don't have time to start into them, and have all the equipment I need as is, and the racks weren't sold. I guess not being a ball person the shipping question is moot but I wouldn't have a problem with it. As to "why leave 2 alive" I think it's pretty obvious that 2 pets is fun, 40 pets is *lots of work*. )
 
I don't use gloves, but I wash my hands between each animal. Makes it easy that there is a deep-sink in the Q-room, but even if there wasn't and I had to use gloves, they would be changed. It's the smart thing to do.



hhmoore said:
I know this is off the Jen topic, but as long as we're on the subject of quarantine....
Of the people that use gloves, how many change them between animals?

(I had a discussion along this general topic line not too long ago, and people seemed surprised that I said I changed gloves between quarantine animals.)
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Dr Owens said:
You know, while we're on the subject, let me bring up another rule of quarantine that I've never seen mentioned anywhere...

It's not uncommon for people to pay more attention to the new acquisitions in their collection simply due to the fact that the new animals are "new and exciting." This excitement can often work against good quarantine procedure. This occurs primarily because when they're going to perform routine maintenance, they tend to go to their "favorite" animals first. Also, when they're showing off their animals to a friend, they tend to go to these same animals first. However, this is exactly backwards of what they should be doing.

If you're performing routine maintenance on your animals, feeding them, or even just looking at them, then you need to go to the animals in quarantine LAST. Then, when you're done messing with the animals in quarantine, you can wash up, change clothes, etc. when you're finished. In fact, if you do it right, then you probably won't even have to go near your main collection until the next day, and by then you'll probably have showered as well (hopefully ;) ).

This one simple procedural observation will do more to protect your main collection from the animals that you might have in quarantine than almost any other (except maybe hand washing).

I know that this sounds like complete common sense, but I have never seen anyone do it this way. Every time I have been touring someone else's collection, they always go to their newest animals first in order to show them off...it's human nature, but it's the exact opposite of what should be done if you want to maintain good quarantine precautions.


Hopefully, someone will find that useful... :)
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Right on, Jay!!

To quote myself from another thread...

shrap said:
1. While two completely separate homes/facilities are best most of us dont have that luxury. So at the very least you need two separate rooms. One for your established critters and one for your new critters. NEVER LET NEW CRITTERS COME IN CONTACT WITH ESTABLISHED CRITTERS.

2. 90 days quarantine minimum. And while I know everyone dont practice the following, I do. Lets say you got an animal in the quarantine room for 2 months and then you bring a new animal into the quarantine room. Now every animal in there is starting over on day one. I dont know for sure what that new animal may have passed on to the ones that were already there so I take no chances.

3. Always do whatever upkeep you are going to do on your established animals first. Water changes, feedings, cleaning.... I dont care what it is. Always do your established animals before you do your quarantine animals. Get all of the work for the day done on established animals first before you mess with the quarantine animals. NEVER do quarantine animals first.

4. Always wash your hands thoroughly before AND after handling any of your animals or doing any type of upkeep with them. Particularly after working with quarantine animals. I dont care if it was just a water change. Wash your hands.

5. If you feed live never return uneaten feeders back into your rodent colony. That is just begging to spread crap all through out your collection. Either euthanize and dispose of the uneaten rodent or set up a rat rodent cage in the quarantine room just for the quarantine animals.

6. You need two of everything. I have separate paper towels, tongs, thermometers, scales, utility tubs, water dishes, hides, etc, etc, etc, for each room. All of them that are meant for the quarantine room have a big ass Q on them in magic marker so I dont get them mixed up.

I am sure I am skipping a couple of things but that right there will get you started in the right direction.
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The way everyone is talking about a virus being so hard to spread I don't see how this thing wiped out Jens collection? Did she not wash her hands between animals, or do the new arrivals in the quarantine room after taking care of her main collection?
I just cant believe that without breaking those basic quarantine standards an airborne virus can not be spread to other animals.

If that is the case, then why should a breeder shut down their collection for any length of time after having a virus like this one, or IBD pass through their facility? Why not just disinfect everything and then resume business as usual, or maybe shut down for 3-6 months. As long as they practice these basic quarantine procedures there would not be any risk that it had infected the rest of the animals in the collection, right?

Sorry, I just don't think it should be treated that lightly. I think Laura set the standard for the way a "good guy/gal" should be expected to handle something like this. Hell, most of you consider me a "bad guy" and that is what I would do. I don't think it is right to risk spreading this to other collections and wiping out who knows how many animals and other peoples investments because you can not do what is necessary to prevent it when faced with the decision.
 
Robert, you have a very serious reading comprehension problem or you are a troll.
 
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