JENNIFER HARRISON GOOD GAL!!!

[Dr Owens]

Well I comprehended the fact that you said you would not think twice about having any animals that were being shipped to you ride in a truck or sit in a hub with any of the infected stuff Jen was, is, or intended on shipping, to mean that either you feel that there is no risk in shipping infected animals, or could care less about putting yours or other peoples animals at risk.

Ok...listen, simple, I'm going to try to explain this in terms that you can understand. However, you're going to have to stop, and try to think clearly for a second, and realize that you don't know near as much as you think that you do on this subject.

First, the two remaining animals that Jen has are asymptomatic. You're making the ASSumption that they are sick, and spewing virus; however, you don't even know for sure if they're even sick! Once again, you're ASSuming!

Second, go back and re-read what I wrote about the likelihood of airborne spread of a virus. When I wrote that, I was referring to SICK animals...not ASYMPTOMATIC ones! Not only does no one know if these animals are even infected, but we don't even know if they would shed virus in the asymptomatic state if they were.

Third, even if they did shed the virus in the asymptomatic state, there is still no way that they would "expose" another animal in a giant shipping hub. For one thing, the animal would be bagged, and then sealed in a box. Even if it were very sick (which it's not), and spewing virus, the likelihood of the virus getting out of the box is slim. For another animal to be exposed, infected respiratory droplets would have be exhaled by the snake, get out of the cloth bag, get through the packing substrate, get through the Styrofoam, get through the cardboard, fly through the air in a warehouse that is hundreds of thousands of square feet in size, land on the one box (out of hundreds of thousands of boxes) that contains your snake (that just so happens to be in the same giant warehouse, of the same shipping company, on the same day of the year), get through the cardboard, get through the Styrofoam, get through the packing substrate, get through the bag, and just happen to float right in front of your snake at just the moment that it decided to inhale, get inhaled, and then hope that there is enough viron particle in that one microscopic droplet, that your snakes immune system doesn't kill the virus before it has time to replicate.

Do I need to keep typing here, or is any of this starting to sink in? I know that it's tough for you, but please try to think logically for just a second...the odds are so unbelievably remote for an infection to be transmitted in this manner, that we are forced to use the term "impossible."

Then the fact that you ivited Jen to ship those animals to you made me lean towards the fact that you feel that there is no risk in shipping them as it would really now be your animals at risk.

Ok...go back and re-read my posts again, and this time try to demonstrate some reading comprehension. There is no risk in shipping an asymptomatic animal, nor will my animals be at risk. Why? Because I know how to quarantine things properly, and I know how infectious diseases are transmitted. I don't fear a "boogy man virus" like you do. There is no such thing as a "boogy man virus"...it's nothing more than a virus that hasn't been properly identified yet...just like the millions of others like in in the world that we haven't discovered yet.

Again the fact that you invited Jen to ship those animals to you and the fact that you were going to keep them in the same facility as your main collection using just Quarantine to prevent it from spreading to your other animals is what made me think that you were saying that as long as a keeper were to practice proper quarantine it is not a risk to the other animals in a collection if an infected animal goes through their facility.

Do you even know what a proper quarantine is? I'm not saying that I'm going to go throw an new animal in a rack right next to one of my Fire Pastels! If Jen were to send me those animals, then they would be quarantined properly. I.E. they or anything that came into contact with them would not go anywhere near my established collection. In other words, yes, I am saying that no one has to fear for their collection if they accidentally acquire an infected animal, as long as they practice proper quarantining methods.

Now, I know that you like to try to twist my words, and accuse me of saying something that I didn't, so let me say this...it's stupid to knowingly buy a sick animal. Why? Because if you can't rehab it, then you're throwing money away. However, that's not what I'm doing. I made the offer to house Jen's snakes to prove a point...and that is that no collection needs to fear this virus as long as (how many times am I going to need to repeat this?) proper quarantine methods are observed!

Maybe I do have a reading comprehension problem .

I think that you probably do. Either it's a comprehension problem, or you're deliberately being obtuse...or perhaps it's not deliberate...perhaps you come by it naturally. I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Dr Owens]

I'm not too bright but what I get from the good Doctor's commentary is that the virus is spread by direct contact and not by airborne means. Therefore sanitary handling is the key to prevention.

Actually, that's not exactly what I said. What I said was that the likelihood of airborne spread is very low, but it is virtually impossible if the animals are in different parts of the same building (house, etc), even if the different rooms share the same HVAC system.

A virus can be airborne (influenza for example), but someone has to almost cough or sneeze in your face for you to catch it. You're more likely get the flu by picking the virus up on your hands from a doorknob or other surface, and then touching your own face, lips, nose, etc.

You were definitely right about one thing though, sanitary handling IS the key to prevention.

Does that explanation make things a little more clear?

 

[hhmoore]

For what it's worth - Jen did say that the snakes from her (previously) remaining group that got sick didn't show the same symptoms as the ones that succumbed to the virus...she didn't put them all down because that virus was again taking a devastating toll, she did it because she had had all she could take (she couldn't financially continue, and she was just so burnt by the whole thing that she didn't want to deal with it any more).

 

[LakesideBoas]

Perhaps we need to define the word quarantine...

 

[Dr Owens]

Of the people that use gloves, how many change them between animals?

I'll have to answer this with, "it depends."

If I'm cleaning a hatchling rack, then my concern for infectious disease goes way down. Consequently, I will probably wear the same pair of gloves while cleaning the whole rack (unless I soil them).

However, if I'm cleaning larger cages, like my boa cages for instance, then I change gloves between cages.

Comparatively, if I'm cleaning any animal's cage that I'm not pretty much 100% certain about (quarantined animals, an animal that might have developed an RI, or even an animal that just "doesn't seem quite right"), then I definitely change gloves, and often wash my hands/arms (depending on the level of contact) between cages.

 

[Dr Owens]

1. While two completely separate homes/facilities are best most of us dont have that luxury. So at the very least you need two separate rooms. One for your established critters and one for your new critters. NEVER LET NEW CRITTERS COME IN CONTACT WITH ESTABLISHED CRITTERS.

2. 90 days quarantine minimum. And while I know everyone dont practice the following, I do. Lets say you got an animal in the quarantine room for 2 months and then you bring a new animal into the quarantine room. Now every animal in there is starting over on day one. I dont know for sure what that new animal may have passed on to the ones that were already there so I take no chances.

3. Always do whatever upkeep you are going to do on your established animals first. Water changes, feedings, cleaning.... I dont care what it is. Always do your established animals before you do your quarantine animals. Get all of the work for the day done on established animals first before you mess with the quarantine animals. NEVER do quarantine animals first.

4. Always wash your hands thoroughly before AND after handling any of your animals or doing any type of upkeep with them. Particularly after working with quarantine animals. I dont care if it was just a water change. Wash your hands.

5. If you feed live never return uneaten feeders back into your rodent colony. That is just begging to spread crap all through out your collection. Either euthanize and dispose of the uneaten rodent or set up a rat rodent cage in the quarantine room just for the quarantine animals.

6. You need two of everything. I have separate paper towels, tongs, thermometers, scales, utility tubs, water dishes, hides, etc, etc, etc, for each room. All of them that are meant for the quarantine room have a big ass Q on them in magic marker so I dont get them mixed up.

I am sure I am skipping a couple of things but that right there will get you started in the right direction.

That was an excellent review of quarantine practices, Sammy. Between that post, and the other info posted in this topic, I think that the bases have been pretty well covered.

 

[hhmoore]

I'll have to answer this with, "it depends."

If I'm cleaning a hatchling rack, then my concern for infectious disease goes way down. Consequently, I will probably wear the same pair of gloves while cleaning the whole rack (unless I soil them).

However, if I'm cleaning larger cages, like my boa cages for instance, then I change gloves between cages.

Comparatively, if I'm cleaning any animal's cage that I'm not pretty much 100% certain about (quarantined animals, an animal that might have developed an RI, or even an animal that just "doesn't seem quite right"), then I definitely change gloves, and often wash my hands/arms (depending on the level of contact) between cages.

Fair enough - I guess I didn't go into enough detail in the fine print, lol

people seemed surprised that I said I changed gloves between quarantine animals.

In an offshoot of this discussion, it was basically stated that washing one's hands would kill anything...I had to say it wasn't that simple. I'm sure Doc Owens has done at least as many of those hand washing trials as I have (with the photo sensitive stuff on the ball, penny, candy). Good handwashing technique is more important than most people realize. It's pretty amazing how much can be left behind, even when we think we are doing a good job.

 

[critical bill]

Third, even if they did shed the virus in the asymptomatic state, there is still no way that they would "expose" another animal in a giant shipping hub. For one thing, the animal would be bagged, and then sealed in a box. Even if it were very sick (which it's not), and spewing virus, the likelihood of the virus getting out of the box is slim. For another animal to be exposed, infected respiratory droplets would have be exhaled by the snake, get out of the cloth bag, get through the packing substrate, get through the Styrofoam, get through the cardboard, fly through the air in a warehouse that is hundreds of thousands of square feet in size, land on the one box (out of hundreds of thousands of boxes) that contains your snake (that just so happens to be in the same giant warehouse, of the same shipping company, on the same day of the year), get through the cardboard, get through the Styrofoam, get through the packing substrate, get through the bag, and just happen to float right in front of your snake at just the moment that it decided to inhale, get inhaled, and then hope that there is enough viron particle in that one microscopic droplet, that your snakes immune system doesn't kill the virus before it has time to replicate.

LMAO!!!

 

[Dr Owens]

Good handwashing technique is more important than most people realize. It's pretty amazing how much can be left behind, even when we think we are doing a good job.

That's a really valid point! I guess I just kind of take hand washing technique for granted.

A few points to remember...

1. Wet your hands.
2. Use antibacterial soap.
3. Rub your hands together vigorously for at least 20 seconds.
4. Scrub all surfaces, including the backs of your hands, wrists, between fingers, under your fingernails.
5. Rinse well.
6. Dry hands with a clean, or disposable towel.
7. Use the towel to turn off the faucet.

Alcohol based hand sanitizers are also an option, but you have to make sure that you rub all surfaces, and continue to do so until it evaporates. However, hand sanitizers aren't an option if your hands have any visible soiling. If that's the case, then you have to use soap and water.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Alcohol based hand sanitizers are also an option, but you have to make sure that you rub all surfaces, and continue to do so until it evaporates. However, hand sanitizers aren't an option if your hands have any visible soiling. If that's the case, then you have to use soap and water.

I was just going to ask you about this, glad you brought it up. I have a little bit of a hand sanitizer fetish.

 

[dsirkle]

Actually, that's not exactly what I said. What I said was that the likelihood of airborne spread is very low, but it is virtually impossible if the animals are in different parts of the same building (house, etc), even if the different rooms share the same HVAC system.

A virus can be airborne (influenza for example), but someone has to almost cough or sneeze in your face for you to catch it. You're more likely get the flu by picking the virus up on your hands from a doorknob or other surface, and then touching your own face, lips, nose, etc.

You were definitely right about one thing though, sanitary handling IS the key to prevention.

Does that explanation make things a little more clear?

I used the term "airborne" improperly and I noticed that I did so after posting, with me viewing sneezing droplets on something as direct contact when that is considered as airborne transmission. I got it and feel that your explanation is very clear. Thanks!

 

[gant77]

Does anyone know if the G-Stripe was destroyed? I am thinking it won't ever be, due to it's value. I just can't shake the feeling that it's going to be bred this season.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Does anyone know if the G-Stripe was destroyed? I am thinking it won't ever be, due to it's value. I just can't shake the feeling that it's going to be bred this season.

How? Unless Spoon is a female I'm not seeing it.

I really have no idea if Spoon is male or female so if anyone can upgrade my clue on that it would be nice, specially since I thought this particular train of thought was squashed.

 

[LakesideBoas]

What I have left are as follows: My 2 beloved pets (Spoon and Lucky, striped male and normal female),

Spoon indeed seems to be a boy.

 

[Cat_72]

Does anyone know if the G-Stripe was destroyed? I am thinking it won't ever be, due to it's value. I just can't shake the feeling that it's going to be bred this season.

It was already said that it is being kept as a pet, and not destroyed. I posted the quote from her a few pages ago saying such.

 

[gant77]

Who's to say that she can't go out and buy adult breedable females,or a Het G-Stripe? I don't care about the $$ situation. Family can step in and help and she is getting donations to help feed her daughter and put gas in her car. In regards to the train of thought, I have not seen a post inquiring specifically to whether or not the G-Stripe would be bred. Just a inquiry into if it was destroyed or being kept as a pet.
Mr. Adzic, Im sorry if my asking of the question has bothered you in any way.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Spoon indeed seems to be a boy.

Thanks , clue updated.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Its been posted and pointed out the last 2 left are males and kept as pets. To be honest , anyone going through what Jen has been through and deciding to breed animals anyway that have not been cleared deserves the worst luck ever. I doubt that Jen will be running out to pick up any breedable females anytime soon as I doubt she would want a potential reminder of what she has already had to do.

The question didn't bother me at all. Folks just keep rehashing whats been hashed out already. If it wasn't you , I'm fairly sure somebody would've come along and brought something else back up.

 

[Cat_72]

Who's to say that she can't go out and buy adult breedable females,or a Het G-Stripe? I don't care about the $$ situation. Family can step in and help and she is getting donations to help feed her daughter and put gas in her car. In regards to the train of thought, I have not seen a post inquiring specifically to whether or not the G-Stripe would be bred. Just a inquiry into if it was destroyed or being kept as a pet.
Mr. Adzic, Im sorry if my asking of the question has bothered you in any way.

Firstly....uh, what makes you say she's getting donations to feed her daughter and put gas in her car? I believe the donations made went to the vet clinic. And not everyone has family that can just step in....as nice as that would be.

Secondly...yes, Spoon is a male.

Third, if you already saw the post about it being kept as a pet, why ask again if it had been destroyed?

And lastly, other than the fact that she doesn't want a damn thing to do with breeding reptiles anymore, what good will it do to post speculative posts about what she could do, or might do, or might not do? Lord knows she's been raked over the coals for all of the crap she HAS done, let's come up with some more things she just might do, since the thread is starting to be somewhat overly sensible.

 

[shrap]

Who's to say that she can't go out and buy adult breedable females,or a Het G-Stripe? I don't care about the $$ situation. Family can step in and help and she is getting donations to help feed her daughter and put gas in her car. In regards to the train of thought, I have not seen a post inquiring specifically to whether or not the G-Stripe would be bred. Just a inquiry into if it was destroyed or being kept as a pet.
Mr. Adzic, Im sorry if my asking of the question has bothered you in any way.

She said she is done. Out. Finished. Over. Kaput. Done.

Could she be lying? Sure. But why play the speculation game? We can all speculate a million different scenarios until the cows come home if we choose to do so.

Now if you got some kind of reason to believe she is lying, and not just pure speculation, then by all means share it. Otherwise the pure "what if" game is accomplishing nothing.